Now that the Formatting issues have been dealt with here is a little more about the cube.
Rules and Philosophy
When I first built it I knew that it would primarily be played on the George Mason Campus and therefore there was a risk of losing cards which I would have rather not had to replace. So I made a simple rule:
RULE 1: Any card over $10 would be included in proxy form only.
I've been very happy with this rule as it has both given me a chance to make some very fun proxies and has greatly increased the fun I have while playing. I don't have to worry too much about losing the cards and the other players like it as well, both enjoying the proxies and not having to worry about the actual cards they are playing.
RULE 2: Banned list of power based on unfun Factor.
A good friend of mine has a cube that sees play at our tables from time to time and is fully powered (proxied). I find that the drafting favors blue far too much. Red, Green, and White get little in comparison to what blue, and even black, can bring to the table.
RULE 3: I resolve to make the best cube possible.
If I don't have a card it gets proxied, regardless of the price. I don't want to be limited by my own card pool. When Zendikar came out I had nearly every good card proxied and in the cube well before release. I replace them with real cards when I can and if its worth it (aka less than $10).
Alternate Draft Formats
4-5 player Draft Rules
This is just the same as normal draft except there are 5 packs of 9, versus 3 packs of 15. I have found this to be way way better, as you don't see the same cards in a pack more than 2 times.
Round Robin Draft (looking for better name)
A while back I stumbled on a thread in Cube Drafting.com that discribed a form or drafting possible with two people. The idea was quite good and I quickly began testing it.
The format was set up like this:
2-4 players
Every player is delt 5 cards
(7-9 cards:2 Player) (11 cards:3 Player) (13 cards:4 Player) are dealt face up on the table
The player left of the dealer can trade on of the cards in his hand for one of the cards on the board. After this exchange the next player may then trade a card in his or her hand with a card on the table. This continues until all players are satisfied with their picks.
This is repeated 9 times so that each player gets a total of 45 cards.
Problems:
The decks were too good
There was no drawback to passing or having a bad 5 card hand
It was too easy to switch colors and strategies within a single session.
A friend and I sat down at some point and started a 2 player version of the draft. We decided to make some rules that would make it more challenging. After a couple of Rounds we came up with a set of rules that have been used ever since.
1. You have to pick 3 times and no more than 3 times.
2. You cannot choose a card on the board that you have previously discarded that round.
3. You cannot simultaneously pickup and replay the same card in a single turn. (this is for those who wanted to argue for basically not having to switch a card)
These rules have been a champ for us thus far. Quickly I realized that this added a very new aspect to the game. Going last, or later in the rotation can allow you to deny your opponent a key card on the last pick with no drawbacks. This has been key multiple times, as a player may not be able to use a card but it is simply too good to give to others.
Notes:
The max number of cards you can keep in any round is 4, switching the last one 3 times.
Be prepared to devote some time if you choose to play this with your friends. It takes a bit longer than most draft formats.
Cards seen: 2player-171 (vs. 90 in normal), 3player-234 (vs. 135 in normal), 4player-297 (vs. 180 in normal).
Thats the formatting, just remove the *. Don't use the button, just type them out yourself. For some reason, the button messes up the coding... At least that's what I've found.
I think Corpse Dance is 5 mana. Ditto capsize,
And is Control Magic functionally a creature?
Where are the signets?
No mire boa?
Repeal is 2 mana?
With all the blue 4 mana instants Rewind has been quite good for me.
Most of eidolon232's suggestions are pretty on-point, but a few I would like to offer an opposing viewpoint:
-Aether Vial is pretty ridiculous in heavy creature aggressive decks such as mono-W or mono-B. The more disruptions spells you have, or the more varied your curve is, the worse Vial becomes. If you are running something like 14-18+ creatures in your deck, and the casting costs are between like 1-4 for the majority of them, then there aren't many cards better for your deck than Vial. I understand that when put like that, the applications may seem rather narrow, but at least around here those types of aggro decks are a regular occurrence so the card shows up all the time.
-Kavu Titan may not be too exciting on either end, but the fact that he is flexible, means I play this guy almost all the time in my Gx aggro decks. Bear on turn two, and 5/5 for 5 trampler with five mana, is pretty awesome. Flexibility is so underrated sometimes.
-Master of the Wild Hunt has single-handedly dominated some matches around here already. If you don't have immediate removal available for him, he will just take over the board, as he is a threat factory that doubles as constant removal. He's been very impressive for us.
-Djinn of Wishes has been pretty good around here. An Air Elemental that can cheat cards from the top of the library at instant speed almost "can't" be bad.
I agree with Eidolon about the Master of the Wild Hunt and Djinn of the Wishes. Neither performed well around these parts, and were cut because of that.
Springleaf Drum: which deck wants to play this card? Aether Vial : while this card is just crazy in constructed, it underperforms in the cube for being unreliable and the curve in most decks is higher.
Kavu Titan: both "versions" of the creature are bad compared to other cards for the same cc. maybe River Boa /Ant Queen Master of the Wild Hunt : iirc it was not the best card in wtwlf123's cube and he removed it fast
No Land Tax / Balance? these cards are ridiculous good. Shaman en-Kor: I have seen him in some lists, any feedback on how he turned out so far?
All of these are valid points but I want to address some of them.
Firstly up untill last week I have had all ten signets in the cube. Its a very common inclusion that I am not against reinstating some time in the near future, but for the time being I want to test out a variety of other Artifact fixers and accelerants.
They all have unique purposes that I wanted to test and determine how good they are.
Regarding Springleaf Drum, I've seen it used very effectivly in some cases in pauper and other formats where agro decks want both an accellerant and mana fixer. And in some cases it can bridge the gap, giving the player a better "curve out." That being said, the presence in the cube is tenative atm, the entire set of cards may be replaced in the future.
Carrion Feeder: The sacrifice ability is still relevant, although not as good with combat tricks it does a very good job at being both an early beater, and a way of making some cards much more potent. For not I think it will stay, I'm certainly not putting Sarcomancy in its slot, but I'm up for other suggestions.
Aether Vial: is fantastic given the right deck. I drafted a 5c agro deck once that used it, a sick manabase and a curve that toped at 3 and I couldn't lose a game. Especially the ones that I have vial in my opening hand.
RE: the color based "power" (any card banned in legacy is my definition for this) Land Tax, Balance, Tutors; all I've excluded for consistency reasons. If I give some colors these cards I wouldn't know where to draw the line on being too good. Therefore I made a simple rule that if its banned in Legacy its not included (minus the lands and artifacts).
Dimir House Guard: I put this guy in over a year ago and since then he has seen more play than you might believe. He is both a perfect tutor in a non powered cube and has a fantastic set of abilities along with solid utility. If I chose at some point to add power I'll probably cut him but for now he has performed to well to get the axe.
I love both the Grab the Reins and Aftershock suggestions. I had Aftershock in the cube at some point but I feel it suffered from the fact that red was very underpowered at that point and probably should not have been cut. That being said I think Puncture Blast is a great utility spell and would love to find a way to keep it in.
Death Spark This card is so insane...let me count the ways. I have both blown people out and been blown out by this card. The power is extremely decieving and is a fantastic utility spell.
Most memorable experience: playing UR counter/burn style deck I had Forbid, Squee, and Death Spark in hand......GG. I had other uses for squee but it just worked out well in this case.
Shaman en-Kor: The first day in the cube I drafted it in a WR agro deck. Game 1 I ended up drawing it on turn 6, my opponent was holding me off with a number of fat creatures and we were basically in a stalemate situation. Swinging would cost me my two best threats (im sorry I dont remember which ones I had except Flametongue Kavu).
I droped the Shaman and went into the redzone with everything. After combat I lost a 1/1 soldier token, he took 6 and went to 5. He scooped the following turn.
Shaman makes combat completely unfair, its ease of splashability as well as being relevant at any point of the game makes it a big winner in my book.
Darkmindtone does a great job explaining how I also feel about the cards he mentions.
We got together yesterday (the 5 main players) and went through each color combination discussion what could be cut. Some of the choices were made based on their personally experience and playstyle to some extent. our list was similar with some differences:
We cut stormbind over Hellion (and even I was iffy on this) but most were convinced this was correct. Plaxcaster Frogling over Plaxmanta. Better flexibility, cheaper cost, great combat trick. Jilt over Izzet Chronarch. I am sure this is somewhat due to bias, and I personally think that Jilt has had way to short a run to justify being cut already, but its something to discuss for now. Plumveil over Mistmeadow Witch in a vacume Plumveil is a better card, however, the manacost has made him somewhat prohibitive, this is also my reasoning for Gouger as well. Mistmeadow has done some prity crazy things with come into play triggers. I even went for broke with it and a Gilded Drake once (it comes back into play on my side of the board :D).
The other one might be a surprise, nearly everyone chose Mortify over the Tidehollow Sculler. Besides the obvious abusability with cards like Crystal Shard, Mortify got the cut primarilly because both colors are all ready loaded with removal. The unique effect was worth keeping over a removal spell which can be easily substituted.
I agree with Eidolon about the Master of the Wild Hunt and Djinn of the Wishes. Neither performed well around these parts, and were cut because of that.
I dont want to use this often as a cop-out (sp?) responce but in this case its partially true. Being unpowered the format favors some cards a little more. I look at cards like this when evaluating for cube: if left unchecked does it get out of hand. Master of the Hunt has to be answered, if it isnt it will get out of hand. Djinn on the other hand I have mixed feelings about. It was very nutz when I had Sensei's Divining Top, but just ok otherwise. I'm not against cutting it because I would love to bring Mana Leak back.
Hellion over Stormbind was a choice made collectively. I would have to agree with you on how good it is, you wont get any arguements from me.
Sarcamancy is, I've found...the surest way to lose the game. There simply are not enough Zombies to keep you from dying to your own enchantment. When I had it, I saw a number of people draft it, I also saw every single one of them die to it over a course of a game after their oppoent destroyed the token. I would rather play Entrails Feaster and I am certainly not playing that...
hmm..doing a search on 1cc black creatures Ghost-Lit Stalker showed up, what are your thoughts on that?
Well, I'd rather have the feeder than the stalker, for sure.
I've not once died to my own Sarcomancy (or seen anyone die to it in the cube, actually). It's a 2/2 for B, it can block, and you don't have to sac other creatures to it to make it a 2/2. I think it's all around better than the Feeder. Plus, there are usually enough zombies that it won't kill you even if the token dies. And, if you can manipulate ways to bounce it (it got really abusive with Tradewind Rider once) it's even better. You can also sac the enchantment to Smokestack and stuff.
Well, I'd rather have the feeder than the stalker, for sure.
I've not once died to my own Sarcomancy (or seen anyone die to it in the cube, actually). It's a 2/2 for B, it can block, and you don't have to sac other creatures to it to make it a 2/2. I think it's all around better than the Feeder. Plus, there are usually enough zombies that it won't kill you even if the token dies. And, if you can manipulate ways to bounce it (it got really abusive with Tradewind Rider once) it's even better. You can also sac the enchantment to Smokestack and stuff.
I would rather add a two drop personally. Sarcomancy will never get back in my cube, besides, even if it did not one person in my group would draft it. Thats an important consideration. Many of my card choices have to do with that fact that certain cards are rarely drafterd. Keeping it fresh and cutting the underplayed cards guarantees that we get 2-3 cube drafts each day Monday-> Friday. I also want to make sure that the players get input in the design, just as much as the good advice I get by posting my list on the forums.
That being said, I want to thank everyone for their help. Wheither you know it or not many of the individuals on this forum have already had a big impact on my design.
So I thank you,
Cheers.
That being said, this cube still needs work. Especially in fixing Black (condensing strategies, smothing out creature base), Red (getting rid of the Clump at 3 mana and solidifying creature base), and Blue (finding the right ratio of creature steal/draw/counters).
@Shaman en-Kor: so you would recommend this card? i think somethink like prismatic strands or fortify would have had a similar effect, unless the board is crowded with creatures.
@Dimir House Guard: even if you don't want to include Demonic Tutor, but Diabolic Tutor (was even in some of the new core sets and isn't overpowered) isn't restricted to 4 mana cards and you don't need to show it to your opponent.
@Death Spark: so you dont cast this card, but loot it away most of the time?
The Death Spark instance was a highlight, but in general it is normally cast, and it is quite good.
Yes, I highly recommend Shaman en-kor. Your right about Strand, except it can't beat and hold a sword. That being said I think Shaman is still probably better.
The fact that Dimir House Guard transmutes at three, can be recurred easier, and is a relevant evasive threat are all good reasons for it over Diabolic Tutor. I maybe be somewhat subject to bias on this topic but I have felt that it was well worth its slot. There are so many good 4 drops to search for. Diabolic Tutor translates into a turn 5 play of the tutored card, Thats not all that good. Yes it can get anything, and that is a consideration. Grim Tutor is likely better than both, but I would rather find another card to replace. The sacrifice being relevant has come up a number of times as has its evasiveness. I like to think I am not subject to the "pet card" mentality, but I am always rewarded for playing it, and everyone in my group likes it so....shrug. Its not for every cube and I'm not pushing for its inclusion elsewhere, but sometimes things just work.
I found Sarcomancy to be better than Carnophage, losing way less life on it. And yes, that was even before i 'zombified' my black creature base.
If i wanted to force monoblack and found a first pick between Carnophage and Sarcomancy, i'd go with the 'Mancy.
Carrion Feeder on the other hand has been nothing but a major disappointment for me. It has just simply been worthless, even in dedicated Zombie decks.
As with Aftershock maybe it was being punished for a unfocused creature base (at its time of inclusion). I'll certainly consider it. I may be mistaken, after all, enough people here seem to feel that its worth it.
Some of the proxies were very quick while others took about 20 min, a few took over 40. I didn't want mediocre pictures, since I'm probably not going to replace them with real cards.
The issue I had was that some of the cards like "thoughtseize" for instance, are very difficult to search for. I ended up finding the picture after searching for dreams. Others I would have no chance to find so I used themes, here are two examples:
Solid Snake FTW
and..
the Goddess Athena.
a few I gave up on after about a hour combined of searching like this one:
I simply couldn't find an image that worked.
Others I just stumbled upon using silly searches such as:
I had loads of fun making them, and in some ways I don't want to find real cards because I like the flavor of the proxies.
***
I was curious if anyone has tried the 2-4 player draft method I proposed in the 2nd post. Has anyone given it a shot yet?
***
List updated 10/12/09: check first page for changes.
I love making proxies with MSE. And my players usually love the results. I started doing it to update wordings on cards and adding proper creature types, and ended up adding quite a few more for fun when I didn't have the cards.
I'm shocked to see it down to a mere 461 cards. Happy Gilmore here is really happy about all his includes, and visibly agonizes over removing even one.
When we draft this cube (or do sealed or really any variant) the games always go long. Grindy stalemate builds upon grindy stalemate. Someone lets me draft every Nekrataal that ever was, and someone lets Happy Gilmore draft Rude Awakening, Masticore, and Plow Under. Whichever one of us gets the Volrath's Stronghold eventually breaks the stalemate. Every other card may as well be blanks that trade with each other. Very little in this cube has the power to break up stalemates, and plenty in it has the power to stall.
Some notes:
Why does red lack sweepers? In all the non-creature spells you have Rolling Earthquake as the only sweeper.
This is why people pick Rude Awakening so highly: it is unchecked. Have your spell run headlong into Volcanic Fallout or Sulfurous Blast and we're really cooking. We have a game, then.
I'd also like to see Shattering Spree in the list, as well as some of the more egregious color distinctions rectified and balanced (Kird Ape in the Multicolor category, for instance). Masticore needs more and better answers. And I don't mean the Keldon Vandals, that card must have been obsoleted a thousand times over by now. Ingot Chewer at the very least.
I know you're not going to listen to me any more in the forums than you would in life, but at the very least you should replace Puncture Blast with Yamabushi's Flame. Recursion is nutty in this cube and you don't have enough answers already. Y-Flame answers more than just Redcap and Finks.
Out: Puncture Blast
In: Yamabushi's Flame
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The vast majority of cards I create are junk" -Mark Rosewater
I wouldn't use Yamabushi's Flame. Carbonize is strictly better (because it also prevents regeneration) if you're looking for that kind of effect. However, I feel that Puncture Blast is still probably better than both. The -1/-1 counters are better than the exile effect, especially since they can be used on a creature big enough to survive the burn, and crippling it to a manageable size.
After you make cards like these, how do you go about printing them? Do you use word, or Workstation?
MSE is an awesome program, it has the printing built in, and I can confirm it is much higher quality done through the program then when I save the images separately then re size them in word.
I'm shocked to see it down to a mere 461 cards. Happy Gilmore here is really happy about all his includes, and visibly agonizes over removing even one.
When we draft this cube (or do sealed or really any variant) the games always go long. Grindy stalemate builds upon grindy stalemate. Someone lets me draft every Nekrataal that ever was, and someone lets Happy Gilmore draft Rude Awakening, Masticore, and Plow Under. Whichever one of us gets the Volrath's Stronghold eventually breaks the stalemate. Every other card may as well be blanks that trade with each other. Very little in this cube has the power to break up stalemates, and plenty in it has the power to stall.
Some notes:
Why does red lack sweepers? In all the non-creature spells you have Rolling Earthquake as the only sweeper.
This is why people pick Rude Awakening so highly: it is unchecked. Have your spell run headlong into Volcanic Fallout or Sulfurous Blast and we're really cooking. We have a game, then.
I'd also like to see Shattering Spree in the list, as well as some of the more egregious color distinctions rectified and balanced (Kird Ape in the Multicolor category, for instance). Masticore needs more and better answers. And I don't mean the Keldon Vandals, that card must have been obsoleted a thousand times over by now. Ingot Chewer at the very least.
I know you're not going to listen to me any more in the forums than you would in life, but at the very least you should replace Puncture Blast with Yamabushi's Flame. Recursion is nutty in this cube and you don't have enough answers already. Y-Flame answers more than just Redcap and Finks.
Out: Puncture Blast
In: Yamabushi's Flame
ARRRrrrr, where be the sneeky 461st card arrrrRRR!!
Haha, that game your refering too was beginning of last semester, last year! That is a long time ago. I've added multiple answers to all the cards you've listed since then. Masticore, tables like no other, since its power level has diminished greatly as the cube has gotten better.
I have 2 goals at this point:
1. neuter control to some extent, making agro better
2. Trim the recursion, its just too good, and too hard to deal with (since no one has drafted the recursion answers I put in the cube thus far)
Your right, I do need to control the recursion problem, and I did add Starstorm as a mass removal spell. In red its the only true sweeper, as earthquake and such are also DD spells.
For a while I had both Phyrexian Furnace and Relic of Progenitus but no one drafted them for the most part. I upped the ways that decks could kill lands so I think that helps somewhat. Recurring Nightmare has no real counter outside of a true Counterspell, since most use it before passing priority. I actually do like Fallout for a number of reasons and will look into finding a spot for it. I'm also considering cutting some recursion because its getting a bit out of hand, especially in black.
I had Kird Ape and Wild Nacatyl in the red/multi sections respectively but I agree with most on the forums that they are mostly only good with the respective colors. That being said, with all the duals its not that hard to splash without really slashing for them.
I'm surprised you think I don't listen too you. When was the last time you played with us btw? The cube games are quite a bit faster, I've been trying hard to make a few colors more aggressive. I'm more than willing to discuss any inclusions. Which cards specifically are unhappy with?
About a year ago I was introduced to the idea of a cube my "The Magic Show" on star city games. I was
intrigued being both a drafter and constructed player. About 2 months later I build my first version with
a few of the cards I had lying around and it was an immediate hit in my play group. All of the spring
semester 2009 we played with the cube. I made a number of changes, made proxies for stuff I didn't have,
went from 360, to 450, to 600 cards.
Playing the Cube at least once a day for a few months gave me some great feedback. For one thing, I
realized very quickly that bigger was not better. It greatly diluted the power and the decks were clunky.
The tighter I made it the better it became and over the past month I have finally got it to where I want
it (or at least close enough to present).
The following list is 470 cards.
List
Artifacts/Colorless 56:
Non-creature
<<0cc>>
Mox Ruby
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mox Diamond
Everflowing Chalice
<<1cc>>
Sol Ring
Sensei's Divining Top
Bonesplitter
Skullclamp
Black Vise
Mana Vault
Cursed Scroll
Basilisk Collar
<<2cc>>
Winter Orb
Grim Monolith
Scroll Rack
Lightning Greaves
Umezawa's Jitte
Mind Stone
Nim Deathmantle
<<3cc:>>
Grafted Wargear
Loxodon Warhammer
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Body and Mind
Sword of Vengeance
Coalition Relic
Crucible of Worlds
Tangle Wire
Oblivion Stone
Mimic Vat
Tumble Magnet
Cloudstone Curio
<<4cc>>
Erratic Portal
Nevinyrral's Disk
Phyrexian Processor
Icy Manipulator
Smokestack
Bonehorde
<<6cc+>>
Mindslaver
Creatures
Epochrasite
Masticore
Lodestone Golem
Solemn Simulacrum
Razormane Masticore
Duplicant
Bottle Gnomes
Juggernaut
Phyrexian Revoker
Wurmcoil Engine
Myr Battlesphere
Molten-Tail Masticore
Black 60:
Non-Creature
<<Lands>>
Volrath's Stronghold
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
<<0-1cc>>
Duress
Thoughtseize
Disfigure
Dark Ritual
Reanimate
Snuff Out
Vampiric Tutor
Booster Tutor
Innocent Blood
<<2cc>>
Bitterblossom
Hymn to Tourach
Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
Night's Whisper
Demonic Tutor
Animate Dead
Last Gasp
Go for the Throat
<<3cc>>
Phyrexian Arena
Sudden Death
Recurring Nightmare
Slaugher Pact
Necromancy
Yawgmoth's Will
<<4cc>>
Damnation
Consuming Vapors
Barter in Blood
<<5cc>>
Liliana Vess
Corpse Dance
<<6cc+>>
Sorin Markov
Profane Command
Mind Twist
Black Sun's Zenith
Creatures
<<1cc>>
Carrion Feeder
Fume Spitter
<<2cc>>
Dark Confidant
Oona's Prowler
Dauthi Horror
Nezumi Graverobber
Bloodghast
Nantuko Shade
Reassembling Skeleton
<<3cc>>
Bane of the Living
Bone Shredder
Hypnotic Specter
Vampire Nighthawk
Undead Gladiator
Liliana's Specter
<<4cc>>
Nekrataal
Graveborn Muse
Abyssal Persecutor
Skinrender
Juzam Djinn
<<5cc>>
Shriekmaw
Puppeteer Clique
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
<<6cc+>>
Grave Titan
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Green 60:
Non-Creature (22)
<<Lands>>
Treetop Village
Yavimaya Hollow
<<0-1cc>>
Vines of Vastwood
Rancor
Mirri's Guile
<<2cc>>
Sylvan Library
Survival of the Fittest
Regrowth
Life from the Loam
Explore
Evolution Charm
Seal of Primordium
<<3cc>>
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
<<4cc>>
Garruk Wildspeaker
Harmonize
<<5cc>>
Plow Under
Primal Command
<<6cc+>>
Rude Awakening
Hurricane
Tooth and Nail
Green Sun's Zenith
Creature
<<0-1cc>>
Llanowar Elves
Birds of Paradise
Basking Rootwalla
Fyndhorn Elves
Noble Hierarch
Twinblade Slasher
Joraga Treespeaker
<<2cc>>
Tarmogoyf
River Boa
Mire Boa
Nest Invader
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Wild Mongrel
Lotus Cobra
Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Fauna Shaman
<<3cc>>
Troll Ascetic
Yavimaya Elder
Viridian Shaman
Uktabi Orangutan
Ophan Viper
Call of the Herd
Great Stable Stag
Eternal Witness
<<4cc>>
Oracle of Mul Daya
Chameleon Colossus
Vengevine
Phantom Centaur
Blastoderm
Obstinate Baloth
Thrun, the Last Troll
<<5cc>>
Wickerbough Elder
Acidic Slime
Genesis
Kodama of the North Tree
Thornling
<<6cc+>>
Woodfall Primus
Blue 60:
Non-Creature
<<Lands>>
Academy Ruins
Shelldock Isle
<<0-1cc>>
Mystical Tutor
Brainstorm
Ancestral Recall
Preordain
Ponder
Force of Will
<<2cc>>
Counterspell
Miscalculation
Remand
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Impulse
Time Walk
Condescend
<<3cc>>
Forbid
Jace Beleren
Crystal Shard
Timetwister
Vedalken Shackles
Frantic Search
Propaganda
Tinker
Equilibrium
<<4cc>>
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Given
Cryptic Command
Gifts Ungiven
Control Magic
Deep Analysis
Jace, The Mind Sculptor
<<5cc>>
Future Sight
Treachery
Bribery
<<6cc+>>
Capsize
Time Spiral
Rite of Replication
Creature
<<1cc>>
Enclave Cryptologist
<<2cc>>
Looter il-kor
Waterfront Bouncer
Gilded Drake
<<3cc>>
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Vendilion Clique
Serendib Efreet
Man-o'-War
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Willbender
Aether Adept
<<4cc>>
Venser, Shaper Savant
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sower of Temptation
<<5cc>>
Body Double
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Mulldrifter
<<6cc+>>
Palinchron
Keiga, the Tide Star
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Frost Titan
Consecrated Sphinx
Red 60:
Non-Creature
<<Lands>>
Barbarian Ring
Ghitu Encampment
<<0-1cc>>
Lightning Bolt
Rift Bolt
Firebolt
Burst Lightning
Chain Lightning
Pyrokinesis
Flame Slash
<<2cc>>
Sudden Shock (reasoning can be found here, where there was a great debate over it,
certainly worth the read: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=150923&page=197)
Incinerate
Magma Jet
Arc Trail
Volcanic Hammer
Pyroclasm
<<3cc>>
Pillage
Sulfuric Vortex
Arc Lightning
Blast From the Past
Char
Wheel of Fortune
Staggershock
Act of Treason
Threaten
<<4cc>>
Aftershock
[card]Koth of the Hammer
[/card]
<<5cc>>
Chandra Nalaar
<<6cc+>>
Banefire
Earthquake
Rolling Earthquake
Creature
<<1cc>>
Magus of the Scroll
Greater Gargadon
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Guide
Spikeshot Elder
<<2cc>>
Mogg War Marshal
Keldon Marauders
Hellspark Elemental
Kargan Dragonlord
Plated Geopede
Hearth Kami
Ember Hauler
Blood Knight
<<3cc>>
Blistering Firecat
Keldon Vandals
Hell's Thunder
Imperial Recruiter
Fire Imp
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Maniac Vandal
<<4cc>>
Flametongue Kavu
Avalanche Riders
Ravenous Baboons
Keldon Champion
Goblin Ruinblaster
Hero of Oxid Ridge
<<5cc>>
Siege-Gang Commander
<<6cc+>>
Bogardan Hellkite
Hellkite Charger
Inferno Titan
White 60:
Non-Creature
<<Lands>>
Kor Haven
Kjeldoran Outpost
<<1cc>>
Enlightened Tutor
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Land Tax
<<2cc>>
Seal of Cleansing
Journey to Nowhere
Balance
Honor of the Pure
Temporal Isolation
<<3cc>>
Ghostly Prison
Oblivion Ring
Glorious Anthem
Prison Term
<<4cc>>
Day of Judgement
Ajani Goldmane
Armageddon
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Ravages of War
Parallax Wave
Wrath of God
<<5cc>>
Gideon Jura
Elspeth Tirtel
<<6cc+>>
Austere Command
Martial Coup
Creatures
<<1cc>>
Weathered Wayfarer
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Elite Vanguard
Mother of Runes
Savannah Lions
Student of Warfare
<<2cc>>
Kor Skyfisher
Soltari Priest
Soltari Monk
Soltari Trooper
Wall of Omens
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
Knight of the White Orchid
Lone Missionary
White Knight
Stoneforge Mystic
<<3cc>>
Paladin en-Vec
Spectral Procession
Mirror Entity
Aven Riftwatcher
Soltari Champion
Stonecloaker
Flickerwisp
<<4cc>>
Kor Sanctifiers
Calciderm
Exalted Angel
Celestial Crusader
<<5cc>>
Baneslayer Angel
Karmic Guide
Reveillark
Cloudgoat Ranger
<<6cc+>>
Yosei, the Morning Star
Sun Titan
Sunblast Angel
Multicolor 99:
UW
Tundra
Flooded Strand
Hallowed Fountain
Azorius Signet
Azorius Chancery
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Celestial Colonnade
Wall of Denial
Venser, the Sojourner
UR
Prophetic Bolt
Electrolyze
Fire // Ice
Izzet Signet
Izzet Chronarch
Izzet Boilerworks
Scalding Tarn
Volcanic Island
Steam Vents
UG
Trygon Predator
Spitting Image
Mystic Snake
Simic Sky Swallower
Flooded Grove
Simic Growth Chamber
Misty Rainforest
Tropical Island
Breeding Pool
UB
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Agony Warp
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Creeping Tar Pit
Polluted Delta
Dimir Signet
Dimir Aqueduct
Watery Grave
Underground Sea
BG
Pernicious Deed
Spiritmonger
Putrid Leech
Putrefy
Maelstrom Pulse
Overgrown Tomb
Verdant Catacombs
Llanowar Wastes
Bayou
BR
Blazing Specter
Murderous Redcap
Terminate
Blightning
Sarkhan the Mad
Lavaclaw Reaches
Blood Crypt
Badlands
Bloodstained Mire
BW
Desolation Angel
Stillmoon Cavalier
Tidehollow Sculler
Vindicate
Scrubland
Fetid Heath
Caves of Koilos
Godless Shrine
Marsh Flats
RW
Figure of Destiny
Lightning Helix
Ajani Vengeant
Goblin Trenches
Battlefield Forge
Rugged Prairie
Sacred Foundary
Plateau
Arid Mesa
RG
Stormbind
Raging Ravine
Sarkhan Vol
Bloodbraid Elf
Kird Ape
Karplusan Forest
Wooded Foothills
Taiga
Stomping Grounds
WG
Mirari's Wake
Loam Lion
Glare of Subdual
Qasali Pridemage
Kitchen Finks
Horizon Canopy
Windswept Heath
Temple Garden
Savannah
Shard:
Broodmate Dragon
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Lightning Angel
Rafiq of the Many
Thornscape Battlemage
Doran, the Siege Tower
5c+:
All Suns Dawn
Who/What/Where/When/Why
Etched Oracle
Strip Mine
Mishra's Factory
Rishadan Port
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Wasteland
Maze of Ith
Library of Alexandria
Mutavault
City of Brass
Ancient Tomb
City of Ass
Grand Coliseum
Gemstone Mine
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
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Rules and Philosophy
RULE 1: Any card over $10 would be included in proxy form only.
I've been very happy with this rule as it has both given me a chance to make some very fun proxies and has greatly increased the fun I have while playing. I don't have to worry too much about losing the cards and the other players like it as well, both enjoying the proxies and not having to worry about the actual cards they are playing.
RULE 2: Banned list of power based on unfun Factor.
List
Ancestral Recall
Mind twist
A good friend of mine has a cube that sees play at our tables from time to time and is fully powered (proxied). I find that the drafting favors blue far too much. Red, Green, and White get little in comparison to what blue, and even black, can bring to the table.
RULE 3: I resolve to make the best cube possible.
If I don't have a card it gets proxied, regardless of the price. I don't want to be limited by my own card pool. When Zendikar came out I had nearly every good card proxied and in the cube well before release. I replace them with real cards when I can and if its worth it (aka less than $10).
Alternate Draft Formats
4-5 player Draft Rules
A while back I stumbled on a thread in Cube Drafting.com that discribed a form or drafting possible with two people. The idea was quite good and I quickly began testing it.
The format was set up like this:
2-4 players
- Every player is delt 5 cards
- (7-9 cards:2 Player) (11 cards:3 Player) (13 cards:4 Player) are dealt face up on the table
- The player left of the dealer can trade on of the cards in his hand for one of the cards on the board. After this exchange the next player may then trade a card in his or her hand with a card on the table. This continues until all players are satisfied with their picks.
- This is repeated 9 times so that each player gets a total of 45 cards.
Problems:- The decks were too good
- There was no drawback to passing or having a bad 5 card hand
- It was too easy to switch colors and strategies within a single session.
A friend and I sat down at some point and started a 2 player version of the draft. We decided to make some rules that would make it more challenging. After a couple of Rounds we came up with a set of rules that have been used ever since.1. You have to pick 3 times and no more than 3 times.
2. You cannot choose a card on the board that you have previously discarded that round.
3. You cannot simultaneously pickup and replay the same card in a single turn. (this is for those who wanted to argue for basically not having to switch a card)
These rules have been a champ for us thus far. Quickly I realized that this added a very new aspect to the game. Going last, or later in the rotation can allow you to deny your opponent a key card on the last pick with no drawbacks. This has been key multiple times, as a player may not be able to use a card but it is simply too good to give to others.
Notes:
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Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Mox Diamond
Mox Ruby
[/cards*]
Thats the formatting, just remove the *. Don't use the button, just type them out yourself. For some reason, the button messes up the coding... At least that's what I've found.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
360 Peasant Cube!
Custom Cube
RWU Miracles RWU
Cheers.
Edit: I am looking to cut 10 multicolored cards, one of each color combination, Suggestions on this would be helpful.
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Jilt
Plaxmanta
Dimir Guildmage
Rendclaw Trow
Bituminous Blast // Ashenmoor Gouger
Tidehollow Sculler // Gerrard's Verdict
Intimidation Bolt // Order/Chaos
Blitz Hellion
W/G - Can't cut one. They are all must imo.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
Those are cool.:)
Almost makes me wish I used proxies!
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And is Control Magic functionally a creature?
Where are the signets?
No mire boa?
Repeal is 2 mana?
With all the blue 4 mana instants Rewind has been quite good for me.
I think you could easily cut the Wilt-Leaf Liege or Behemoth Sledge from WG if you have to. They're both good, but not needed.
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Yep ... cut the liege.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
-Aether Vial is pretty ridiculous in heavy creature aggressive decks such as mono-W or mono-B. The more disruptions spells you have, or the more varied your curve is, the worse Vial becomes. If you are running something like 14-18+ creatures in your deck, and the casting costs are between like 1-4 for the majority of them, then there aren't many cards better for your deck than Vial. I understand that when put like that, the applications may seem rather narrow, but at least around here those types of aggro decks are a regular occurrence so the card shows up all the time.
-Kavu Titan may not be too exciting on either end, but the fact that he is flexible, means I play this guy almost all the time in my Gx aggro decks. Bear on turn two, and 5/5 for 5 trampler with five mana, is pretty awesome. Flexibility is so underrated sometimes.
-Master of the Wild Hunt has single-handedly dominated some matches around here already. If you don't have immediate removal available for him, he will just take over the board, as he is a threat factory that doubles as constant removal. He's been very impressive for us.
-Djinn of Wishes has been pretty good around here. An Air Elemental that can cheat cards from the top of the library at instant speed almost "can't" be bad.
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
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All of these are valid points but I want to address some of them.
Firstly up untill last week I have had all ten signets in the cube. Its a very common inclusion that I am not against reinstating some time in the near future, but for the time being I want to test out a variety of other Artifact fixers and accelerants.
Guardian Idol
Mind Stone
Prismatic Lens
Coldsteel Heart
Worn Powerstone
Springleaf Drum
They all have unique purposes that I wanted to test and determine how good they are.
Regarding Springleaf Drum, I've seen it used very effectivly in some cases in pauper and other formats where agro decks want both an accellerant and mana fixer. And in some cases it can bridge the gap, giving the player a better "curve out." That being said, the presence in the cube is tenative atm, the entire set of cards may be replaced in the future.
Carrion Feeder: The sacrifice ability is still relevant, although not as good with combat tricks it does a very good job at being both an early beater, and a way of making some cards much more potent. For not I think it will stay, I'm certainly not putting Sarcomancy in its slot, but I'm up for other suggestions.
Aether Vial: is fantastic given the right deck. I drafted a 5c agro deck once that used it, a sick manabase and a curve that toped at 3 and I couldn't lose a game. Especially the ones that I have vial in my opening hand.
Order of the Ebon Hand and Stromgald Crusader: I like both those suggestions and I'll probably give those a shot next time I get a chance.
RE: the color based "power" (any card banned in legacy is my definition for this) Land Tax, Balance, Tutors; all I've excluded for consistency reasons. If I give some colors these cards I wouldn't know where to draw the line on being too good. Therefore I made a simple rule that if its banned in Legacy its not included (minus the lands and artifacts).
Dimir House Guard: I put this guy in over a year ago and since then he has seen more play than you might believe. He is both a perfect tutor in a non powered cube and has a fantastic set of abilities along with solid utility. If I chose at some point to add power I'll probably cut him but for now he has performed to well to get the axe.
I love both the Grab the Reins and Aftershock suggestions. I had Aftershock in the cube at some point but I feel it suffered from the fact that red was very underpowered at that point and probably should not have been cut. That being said I think Puncture Blast is a great utility spell and would love to find a way to keep it in.
Death Spark This card is so insane...let me count the ways. I have both blown people out and been blown out by this card. The power is extremely decieving and is a fantastic utility spell.
Most memorable experience: playing UR counter/burn style deck I had Forbid, Squee, and Death Spark in hand......GG. I had other uses for squee but it just worked out well in this case.
Shaman en-Kor: The first day in the cube I drafted it in a WR agro deck. Game 1 I ended up drawing it on turn 6, my opponent was holding me off with a number of fat creatures and we were basically in a stalemate situation. Swinging would cost me my two best threats (im sorry I dont remember which ones I had except Flametongue Kavu).
I droped the Shaman and went into the redzone with everything. After combat I lost a 1/1 soldier token, he took 6 and went to 5. He scooped the following turn.
Shaman makes combat completely unfair, its ease of splashability as well as being relevant at any point of the game makes it a big winner in my book.
Darkmindtone does a great job explaining how I also feel about the cards he mentions.
We got together yesterday (the 5 main players) and went through each color combination discussion what could be cut. Some of the choices were made based on their personally experience and playstyle to some extent. our list was similar with some differences:
We cut stormbind over Hellion (and even I was iffy on this) but most were convinced this was correct. Plaxcaster Frogling over Plaxmanta. Better flexibility, cheaper cost, great combat trick. Jilt over Izzet Chronarch. I am sure this is somewhat due to bias, and I personally think that Jilt has had way to short a run to justify being cut already, but its something to discuss for now. Plumveil over Mistmeadow Witch in a vacume Plumveil is a better card, however, the manacost has made him somewhat prohibitive, this is also my reasoning for Gouger as well. Mistmeadow has done some prity crazy things with come into play triggers. I even went for broke with it and a Gilded Drake once (it comes back into play on my side of the board :D).
The other one might be a surprise, nearly everyone chose Mortify over the Tidehollow Sculler. Besides the obvious abusability with cards like Crystal Shard, Mortify got the cut primarilly because both colors are all ready loaded with removal. The unique effect was worth keeping over a removal spell which can be easily substituted.
I dont want to use this often as a cop-out (sp?) responce but in this case its partially true. Being unpowered the format favors some cards a little more. I look at cards like this when evaluating for cube: if left unchecked does it get out of hand. Master of the Hunt has to be answered, if it isnt it will get out of hand. Djinn on the other hand I have mixed feelings about. It was very nutz when I had Sensei's Divining Top, but just ok otherwise. I'm not against cutting it because I would love to bring Mana Leak back.
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Ew. Stormbind is one of the best RG cards for the cube. Hellion... not so much. Stormbind is amazing. It's so good against control, it's ridiculous.
..........
Also, Mana Leak is 100x better than Djinn of Wishes.
I'd also find room for Aftershock ASAP.
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Hellion over Stormbind was a choice made collectively. I would have to agree with you on how good it is, you wont get any arguements from me.
Sarcamancy is, I've found...the surest way to lose the game. There simply are not enough Zombies to keep you from dying to your own enchantment. When I had it, I saw a number of people draft it, I also saw every single one of them die to it over a course of a game after their oppoent destroyed the token. I would rather play Entrails Feaster and I am certainly not playing that...
hmm..doing a search on 1cc black creatures Ghost-Lit Stalker showed up, what are your thoughts on that?
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I've not once died to my own Sarcomancy (or seen anyone die to it in the cube, actually). It's a 2/2 for B, it can block, and you don't have to sac other creatures to it to make it a 2/2. I think it's all around better than the Feeder. Plus, there are usually enough zombies that it won't kill you even if the token dies. And, if you can manipulate ways to bounce it (it got really abusive with Tradewind Rider once) it's even better. You can also sac the enchantment to Smokestack and stuff.
For 1-Drop black creatures:
Carnophage
Sarcomancy
Vampire Lacerator
.
.
Carrion Feeder
... in that order.
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I would rather add a two drop personally. Sarcomancy will never get back in my cube, besides, even if it did not one person in my group would draft it. Thats an important consideration. Many of my card choices have to do with that fact that certain cards are rarely drafterd. Keeping it fresh and cutting the underplayed cards guarantees that we get 2-3 cube drafts each day Monday-> Friday. I also want to make sure that the players get input in the design, just as much as the good advice I get by posting my list on the forums.
That being said, I want to thank everyone for their help. Wheither you know it or not many of the individuals on this forum have already had a big impact on my design.
So I thank you,
Cheers.
That being said, this cube still needs work. Especially in fixing Black (condensing strategies, smothing out creature base), Red (getting rid of the Clump at 3 mana and solidifying creature base), and Blue (finding the right ratio of creature steal/draw/counters).
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First page updated! More pictures added!
Edit: changes made, spreadsheet updated.
The Death Spark instance was a highlight, but in general it is normally cast, and it is quite good.
Yes, I highly recommend Shaman en-kor. Your right about Strand, except it can't beat and hold a sword. That being said I think Shaman is still probably better.
The fact that Dimir House Guard transmutes at three, can be recurred easier, and is a relevant evasive threat are all good reasons for it over Diabolic Tutor. I maybe be somewhat subject to bias on this topic but I have felt that it was well worth its slot. There are so many good 4 drops to search for. Diabolic Tutor translates into a turn 5 play of the tutored card, Thats not all that good. Yes it can get anything, and that is a consideration. Grim Tutor is likely better than both, but I would rather find another card to replace. The sacrifice being relevant has come up a number of times as has its evasiveness. I like to think I am not subject to the "pet card" mentality, but I am always rewarded for playing it, and everyone in my group likes it so....shrug. Its not for every cube and I'm not pushing for its inclusion elsewhere, but sometimes things just work.
As with Aftershock maybe it was being punished for a unfocused creature base (at its time of inclusion). I'll certainly consider it. I may be mistaken, after all, enough people here seem to feel that its worth it.
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[EDH] WRG Uril, The Miststalker
[EDH] G Verdeloth, The Ancient
Some of the proxies were very quick while others took about 20 min, a few took over 40. I didn't want mediocre pictures, since I'm probably not going to replace them with real cards.
The issue I had was that some of the cards like "thoughtseize" for instance, are very difficult to search for. I ended up finding the picture after searching for dreams. Others I would have no chance to find so I used themes, here are two examples:
Solid Snake FTW
and..
the Goddess Athena.
a few I gave up on after about a hour combined of searching like this one:
I simply couldn't find an image that worked.
Others I just stumbled upon using silly searches such as:
I had loads of fun making them, and in some ways I don't want to find real cards because I like the flavor of the proxies.
***
I was curious if anyone has tried the 2-4 player draft method I proposed in the 2nd post. Has anyone given it a shot yet?
***
List updated 10/12/09: check first page for changes.
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I'm shocked to see it down to a mere 461 cards. Happy Gilmore here is really happy about all his includes, and visibly agonizes over removing even one.
When we draft this cube (or do sealed or really any variant) the games always go long. Grindy stalemate builds upon grindy stalemate. Someone lets me draft every Nekrataal that ever was, and someone lets Happy Gilmore draft Rude Awakening, Masticore, and Plow Under. Whichever one of us gets the Volrath's Stronghold eventually breaks the stalemate. Every other card may as well be blanks that trade with each other. Very little in this cube has the power to break up stalemates, and plenty in it has the power to stall.
Some notes:
Why does red lack sweepers? In all the non-creature spells you have Rolling Earthquake as the only sweeper.
This is why people pick Rude Awakening so highly: it is unchecked. Have your spell run headlong into Volcanic Fallout or Sulfurous Blast and we're really cooking. We have a game, then.
I'd also like to see Shattering Spree in the list, as well as some of the more egregious color distinctions rectified and balanced (Kird Ape in the Multicolor category, for instance). Masticore needs more and better answers. And I don't mean the Keldon Vandals, that card must have been obsoleted a thousand times over by now. Ingot Chewer at the very least.
I know you're not going to listen to me any more in the forums than you would in life, but at the very least you should replace Puncture Blast with Yamabushi's Flame. Recursion is nutty in this cube and you don't have enough answers already. Y-Flame answers more than just Redcap and Finks.
Out: Puncture Blast
In: Yamabushi's Flame
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MSE is an awesome program, it has the printing built in, and I can confirm it is much higher quality done through the program then when I save the images separately then re size them in word.
ARRRrrrr, where be the sneeky 461st card arrrrRRR!!
Haha, that game your refering too was beginning of last semester, last year! That is a long time ago. I've added multiple answers to all the cards you've listed since then. Masticore, tables like no other, since its power level has diminished greatly as the cube has gotten better.
I have 2 goals at this point:
1. neuter control to some extent, making agro better
2. Trim the recursion, its just too good, and too hard to deal with (since no one has drafted the recursion answers I put in the cube thus far)
Your right, I do need to control the recursion problem, and I did add Starstorm as a mass removal spell. In red its the only true sweeper, as earthquake and such are also DD spells.
For a while I had both Phyrexian Furnace and Relic of Progenitus but no one drafted them for the most part. I upped the ways that decks could kill lands so I think that helps somewhat. Recurring Nightmare has no real counter outside of a true Counterspell, since most use it before passing priority. I actually do like Fallout for a number of reasons and will look into finding a spot for it. I'm also considering cutting some recursion because its getting a bit out of hand, especially in black.
I can't see cards like Shattering Spree being better than Keldon Vandals, or Hearth Kami (a recent add). I will however consider Ingot Chewer, That is not all that bad.
I had Kird Ape and Wild Nacatyl in the red/multi sections respectively but I agree with most on the forums that they are mostly only good with the respective colors. That being said, with all the duals its not that hard to splash without really slashing for them.
I'm surprised you think I don't listen too you. When was the last time you played with us btw? The cube games are quite a bit faster, I've been trying hard to make a few colors more aggressive. I'm more than willing to discuss any inclusions. Which cards specifically are unhappy with?
I'm thinking
- Aftershock
+ Volcanic Fallout
and on a tangent:
- Plaxmanta
+ Voidslime
I wish there were more fast red creatures at 1/2 but I think I've hit on all the good ones.
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