Seems pretty good. 3/3 vigilance for 3 with an etb, and generates more value when it attacks. The value also seems pretty flexible. I don't think it's super likely you'll get to the anthem effect, but could be wrong.
It's not bad, but it is ultimately just a dude. Still, the versatility is plain to see once you start to think about the card on the field. I imagine most cubers will find the dungeon to be an unnecessary thing to have to include extra token cards for. The value is here, but there's no true reason to play this over another goodstuff three drop like Danitha Capashen, Paragon.
The card's not bad though. I feel like usually your gonna take the Lost Mine of Phandelver, as the bonuses are really basic and easy to utilize. It also is easier to complete than the Mad Mage's dungeon, and getting your anthem isn't impossible. If you recur this guy, it becomes very likely that the anthem will be up.
Ultimately, it depends on the size of the usable “dungeon package” we receive. If we can regularly expect this card to attack as a 4/4 (lost mine) or if we can expect it to spit out a 4/4 token the first time it attacks (which then becomes a 5/5 due to the anthem effect), this card is pretty nice.
The value generated by the dungeons is pretty minimal unless you can get multiple ventures off.
This card by itself with no other dungeon support, while not bad, seems clearly under par for cube.
Assuming we get more dungeon support, this is pretty decent. By itself, Lost Mines of Phandelver will pretty much always be the default dungeon since it's the most aggressive.
Assuming we get more dungeon support, this is pretty decent. By itself, Lost Mines of Phandelver will pretty much always be the default dungeon since it's the most aggressive.
With Lost Mine as the main choice this is kind of a weird Rabblemaster variant that trades explosiveness for a better body, more flexibility, and a scry. I think it's better than it looks at first glance. Especially if white ends up with a couple of other decent venture cards. And its pretty great with blink effects too.
So the most common play pattern will be Lost Mine like ThatOneNinja said.
So play it on T3 as a 3/3 vigilance ETB scry 1.
Attack on T4 and make a 1/1 goblin.
Attack on T5 and get a +1/+1 counter.
Definitely weaker than a rabblemaster but still not horrible I think. It misses my cube on it's own but another few Venture cards at or above that power level and I'll definitely give them a try. It's probably around 70% of Blade Splicer which has been excellent for us. Edit: awful comparison because so much of Splicers value is the aggro body that needs to be answered isn't the half that gets abused with synergies.
i definitely agree w/ Sliver Lord here, that Tomb (dungeon) is by far the most aggressive. in fact, if they make any kind of decent red aggro creature w/ the "venture" mechanic, it mite actually see some competitive play. T1 red 1 drop "venture" creature, ping 1, T2 guide, swing, trigger dungeon, get value...
as for Nadaar, Selfless Paladin, he probably plays better than we think he will & his baseline stats arent the worst + you get some immediate value off him when he etb's (to mitigate the mana investment), b/c he definitely doesnt pass the vindicate test. he by no means is cracking really tight cubes, but he's not terrible & throwing 3 xtra "dungeon tokens" in a big cube box isnt going to detract anyone from running him
I think the card looks really good, actually. There are multiple ETB triggers to choose from, and so many attack trigger paths to choose from that I think it's too hard to accurately judge without seeing it in action first. Different dungeons work better for different game states, so there's a lot of flexibility with the ability to choose the path. Scry->Token->Counter->Draw is going to be common, but the lifeloss/discard/sacrifice/body plan is very relevant for certain decks, especially since it can function as a discard/sacrifice outlet. I think this card (and the mechanic in general) requires some extensive testing.
as for Nadaar, Selfless Paladin, he probably plays better than we think he will & his baseline stats arent the worst + you get some immediate value off him when he etb's (to mitigate the mana investment), b/c he definitely doesnt pass the vindicate test. he by no means is cracking really tight cubes, but he's not terrible & throwing 3 xtra "dungeon tokens" in a big cube box isnt going to detract anyone from running him
This definitely DOES pass the Vindicate test...Your opponent is spending just as much mana to answer your threat but you get value from the etb venture.
I’m evaluating this by itself until there’s evidence ample venture support to consider it as an interaction with other Cube cards.
By itself I’m concerned that the ETB is too weak - even slight buffs to the ETB or static abilities on the card (give it first strike) would have helped it so much.
I look at this card and consider with different weights “what do I get for playing it, what do I get for attacking once with it, and what’s the ultimate upside if the opponent is way behind and can’t deal with it for several turns?” I think anything past the first attack trigger should be weighed low, sort of like a mid-difficulty planeswalker ultimate. It’s not why you play the card.
The thing that will make or break the card in my opinion is how good is the option of making a 1/1 or a treasure token on first attack?
How often does your non-hasted 3 drop attack 3+ times in a game of magic?!
if rabblemaster attacks that often the game is likely over.
The value gained at the end of these dungeons are a fringe case at best.
scry 1 as guaranteed value for a 3 drop is not good, but it’s better than nothing.
If it attacks twice, it’s functioned not much different than a noteably worse brimaz with less damage and less toughness. A card that is a mid-late pick in an extremely stacked slot.
There are different fringe dungeon paths available but they are low value and require a few attacks, which is somewhat uncommon to get off.
This could change if new dungeons get released in future sets tho..
How often does your non-hasted 3 drop attack 3+ times in a game of magic?!
if rabblemaster attacks that often the game is likely over.
The value gained at the end of these dungeons are a fringe case at best.
scry 1 as guaranteed value for a 3 drop is not good, but it’s better than nothing.
If it attacks twice, it’s functioned not much different than a noteably worse brimaz with less damage and less toughness. A card that is a mid-late pick in an extremely stacked slot.
There are different fringe dungeon paths available but they are low value and require a few attacks, which is somewhat uncommon to get off.
This could change if new dungeons get released in future sets tho..
Sorry to hijack the thread with my back and forth musings, but I believe I underestimated the card a bit.
I realized on the third attack you trigger his anthem ability before damage. Had it in my head it wasn't until the 4th attack you get his anthem.
3 attacks, while uncommon is still wayyy more common than 4.
with 1 other creature his cumulative damage compared to brimaz:
0 -> 3 -> 8 -> 15 Nadaar
0 -> 4 -> 9 -> 15 Brimaz
Combine this with some blink value, some minor ETB value and he's a lot closer to inclusion for me than I first thought.
Still think Brimaz would be a better card due to the 4th toughness, but now I think they are closer.
Sorry to hijack the thread with my back and forth musings, but I believe I underestimated the card a bit.
I realized on the third attack you trigger his anthem ability before damage. Had it in my head it wasn't until the 4th attack you get his anthem.
3 attacks, while uncommon is still wayyy more common than 4.
with 1 other creature his cumulative damage compared to brimaz:
0 -> 3 -> 8 -> 15 Nadaar
0 -> 4 -> 9 -> 15 Brimaz
Combine this with some blink value, some minor ETB value and he's a lot closer to inclusion for me than I first thought.
Still think Brimaz would be a better card due to the 4th toughness, but now I think they are closer.
Comparable to Brimaz, on one path of one dungeon, assuming no blink triggers or anything else. Plus a scry. And a 2W cost. And at least some value if it gets hit by a removal spell out of the gate. I think this card is better than people think.
Plus, if there wind up being any other playable Venture cards to go in alongside it, the path to the anthem trigger and restarting the dungeons accelerates.
as for Nadaar, Selfless Paladin, he probably plays better than we think he will & his baseline stats arent the worst + you get some immediate value off him when he etb's (to mitigate the mana investment), b/c he definitely doesnt pass the vindicate test. he by no means is cracking really tight cubes, but he's not terrible & throwing 3 xtra "dungeon tokens" in a big cube box isnt going to detract anyone from running him
This definitely DOES pass the Vindicate test...Your opponent is spending just as much mana to answer your threat but you get value from the etb venture.
yea thats my bad, i was in a hurry when i was typing, my brain was saying 1 thing & my fingers were typing another, sorry about that
@Sliver Lord I’ve been trying for days to understand when anyone would choose oubliette. It isn’t symmetrical. Only you take all the punches there. I’m pretty disappointed by that, although it would be nightmarish in constructed to do that over and over. Do you have a sales pitch in mind?
@Sliver Lord I’ve been trying for days to understand when anyone would choose oubliette. It isn’t symmetrical. Only you take all the punches there. I’m pretty disappointed by that, although it would be nightmarish in constructed to do that over and over. Do you have a sales pitch in mind?
Seems pretty good. 3/3 vigilance for 3 with an etb, and generates more value when it attacks. The value also seems pretty flexible. I don't think it's super likely you'll get to the anthem effect, but could be wrong.
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The card's not bad though. I feel like usually your gonna take the Lost Mine of Phandelver, as the bonuses are really basic and easy to utilize. It also is easier to complete than the Mad Mage's dungeon, and getting your anthem isn't impossible. If you recur this guy, it becomes very likely that the anthem will be up.
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otherwise, I think it’s an easy pass.
This card by itself with no other dungeon support, while not bad, seems clearly under par for cube.
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This is probably only going to make it if there are a lot of cubable venture cards, which I doubt.
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I think this is a lot better than Danitha since it has better base stats, and an ETB / attack trigger.
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I agree on lost mines as the default, but because it has the best 1st level. Surely Tomb is the most aggressive?
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So play it on T3 as a 3/3 vigilance ETB scry 1.
Attack on T4 and make a 1/1 goblin.
Attack on T5 and get a +1/+1 counter.
Definitely weaker than a rabblemaster but still not horrible I think. It misses my cube on it's own but another few Venture cards at or above that power level and I'll definitely give them a try.
It's probably around 70% of Blade Splicer which has been excellent for us.Edit: awful comparison because so much of Splicers value is the aggro body that needs to be answered isn't the half that gets abused with synergies.My 630 Card Powered Cube
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This definitely DOES pass the Vindicate test...Your opponent is spending just as much mana to answer your threat but you get value from the etb venture.
By itself I’m concerned that the ETB is too weak - even slight buffs to the ETB or static abilities on the card (give it first strike) would have helped it so much.
I look at this card and consider with different weights “what do I get for playing it, what do I get for attacking once with it, and what’s the ultimate upside if the opponent is way behind and can’t deal with it for several turns?” I think anything past the first attack trigger should be weighed low, sort of like a mid-difficulty planeswalker ultimate. It’s not why you play the card.
The thing that will make or break the card in my opinion is how good is the option of making a 1/1 or a treasure token on first attack?
if rabblemaster attacks that often the game is likely over.
The value gained at the end of these dungeons are a fringe case at best.
scry 1 as guaranteed value for a 3 drop is not good, but it’s better than nothing.
If it attacks twice, it’s functioned not much different than a noteably worse brimaz with less damage and less toughness. A card that is a mid-late pick in an extremely stacked slot.
There are different fringe dungeon paths available but they are low value and require a few attacks, which is somewhat uncommon to get off.
This could change if new dungeons get released in future sets tho..
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Agree with all of this.
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I realized on the third attack you trigger his anthem ability before damage. Had it in my head it wasn't until the 4th attack you get his anthem.
3 attacks, while uncommon is still wayyy more common than 4.
with 1 other creature his cumulative damage compared to brimaz:
0 -> 3 -> 8 -> 15 Nadaar
0 -> 4 -> 9 -> 15 Brimaz
Combine this with some blink value, some minor ETB value and he's a lot closer to inclusion for me than I first thought.
Still think Brimaz would be a better card due to the 4th toughness, but now I think they are closer.
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Comparable to Brimaz, on one path of one dungeon, assuming no blink triggers or anything else. Plus a scry. And a 2W cost. And at least some value if it gets hit by a removal spell out of the gate. I think this card is better than people think.
Plus, if there wind up being any other playable Venture cards to go in alongside it, the path to the anthem trigger and restarting the dungeons accelerates.
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I think oubliette will come up surprisingly often.
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yea thats my bad, i was in a hurry when i was typing, my brain was saying 1 thing & my fingers were typing another, sorry about that
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