@asmallcat: I do not think this is remotely comparable to the low-impact nature of lands like Flagstones of Trokair. If you do, then we're evaluating on completely different axis, and should probably just stop wasting our time debating.
My point was not that it's nearly as low impact as flagstones (it's not), but that it's in a similar space where every deck will run it but that's not enough for me to cube it. Just "going in every deck of this color" isn't enough to get a card in cube, or else every cube would run flagstones. So it has to have some bigger impact than just going in every deck. This one doesn't get there for me as I see it being a land the vast majority of the time and drawing 1 or 2 cards a lot of the time you cast it as a spell. Better than having a land when you have 7 mana? Sure. Better enough (and frequent enough) that I want to cut another card for it? Nope. It is SO MUCH lower impact than the white one.
Edit - and this isn't just a free roll. When it's played as a land it's worse than an island. If you absolutely need to hit your 4th land drop and this is what you draw against aggro, that's a real cost. It also can't be fetched, but since no deck where blue wasn't a main color would run this, I don't think that would be an issue.
I mean, I understand that it doesn’t matter, but it’s still bothering me because it’s a split card that I want to easily classify but can’t, and the layout of my cube in CubeCobra is weirdly important to me.
Well they are the spell side in every zone but in play, so you can always fall back on that =P
But seriously, since you have lands sections in each color anyway (as I do) I'd classify all the DFC land/spells as lands, as that's the reason you're playing them. No one would play any of these for just the spell side.
This is a card similar to a utlity land. It will almost always make a blue control deck better... but very marginally so...
The opportunity cost of including it in your cube over another, more interesting card, is the real opportunity cost to consider.
The mystical tutor synergy may make me change my mind on that, as that's a cool interaction. There may be more of those than meets the eye.
Yeah I’m not feeling this one. Like others have said, there is an opportunity cost to including a card like this in your Cube, and it’s more than “should this replace an island in a deck?”
But even the cost of playing this card in a deck is understated I think. It’s worse than an Island against any aggressive deck.
3 life is a hefty cost, especially for blue control decks. Blue decks are already favored in the very late game. I think this is worse than Castle Vantress.
I like this way more than the draw spells that have cycling. When I'm cycling a draw spell, it's almost always because I need to hit a land.
This is very far from my experience with cycling. I often cycle to find an answer/blocker, or just to use mana at an end of turn if I have one free because I didn't counter something, and/or do not expect the spell side to be more relevant than a random card at this point in time.
I'll try to expand my thoughts on this card and why I like it more than a lot of folks seem to. It'll be in my article too, but it won't hurt to share it.
I think the philosophy behind liking this card is the same as that which is applied to a card like Boon of the Wish-Giver. The high ceiling when flooded + safe floor otherwise has some appeal to a lot of folks. The mythic Sea Gate design is that same concept, just dialed up to 11. In the spell mode, Boon is more consistent, and has a higher floor but lower ceiling than Sea Gate Restoration does in its spell mode. The opposite is true for the cycling half of the card. Boon's cycling has a higher ceiling, but a lower floor. With Sea Gate, Restored you get a land 100% of the time. Which allows you to potentially keep opening hands that you might otherwise need to mulligan, and it guarantees you a blue source when you do it. For me, the consistency of the "islandcycling" mode is more important (especially since it can be Islandcycling: 1 or Islandcycling: Pay 3 life depending on your curve). The value from Boon is far more consistent as a spell, but I'm more willing to do a high-risk/high-reward design on the big mana side, and err on the side of more consistency with the "cycling" mode.
Not every cube will have room for an effect like Boon or Sea Gate, but I think medium- to large-sized cubes that are looking for a modal big draw/safe floor effect can find success with either of these cards, and I prefer this one to Boon for the reasons I just detailed above. Impact on opening 7 security and a true cycling safety net if you need to dig for lands ...those two advantages appeal more to me than the average value of the big-mana side of the card. Again, just my $0.02. I'm not calling this a 360 staple. But I do think this has appeal in a lot of lists, that are looking for a Boon-esque effect. I'm stoked to try it, and expect it to play well, but I understand the issues that small cubes have with making room. Cutting blue cards is painful, and I can't fault anyone for failing to find room.
Sorry if this thread got too heated before, or if I was sounding off like an ass. You guys know me by now, lol.
I'm not calling this a 360 staple. But I do think this has appeal in a lot of lists, that are looking for a Boon-esque effect. I'm stoked to try it, and expect it to play well, but I understand the issues that small cubes have with making room. Cutting blue cards is painful, and I can't fault anyone for failing to find room.
I think the problem here is that most people come at these reviews from a perspective of Cube that is rooted in higher power levels which leads to maximizing efficiency across the board. The result is, feedback that doesn't really account for inclusion by intention - that is to say, including cards because they intentionally manipulate one, two, or more, dials that tune a Cube.
I have no doubt that some Cube out there could use something like this... but when considering the typical threshold used for these discussions, this card isn't impressive. For Cubes with lower power levels, this card might be nice. But once again, in an environment where people are popping out things like Liliana, Dreadhord General on turn 4, Sea Gate Restoration isn't cutting the mustard in my eyes, especially in big mana blue.
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For some people, that may be the case. But consistency is also key, and I love the idea of being able to include a card that has an opportunity to be a gross, massive draw spell AND is also never "dead" at any stage. But each cube manager approaches their lists differently, and not every card is for everybody. In general, I'd agree that the "low opportunity cost/marginal upside" recipe isn't exciting, but I think this mythic cycle is the first group of these kinds of designs that pushes the envelope enough for me to be excited by the prospect. Anyways, I aim to test and find out.
I think the competition for this card in my cube is Castle Vantress, and I am not sure SGR is winning. With Castle you get both the land drop and a late-game mana sink. With this card, you are only ever getting one effect.
I like this quite a bit more than Castle, personally. This can provide me with an untapped land at any point where I need it to, and has the potential to generate massive card advantage on occasion. But obviously this design is super polarizing, so we're never going to find consensus here.
Wtwlf, I like some of your arguments in support of this card, but I'm on the nay side of things. Like Metamind, I have my mind on different things when I'm using cycling, so that comparison doesn't land super strongly for me.
I think because this "land or spell" style of card is new, we're probably all over the place as far as evaluation goes. Kinda reminds me of drafting Conspiracies; like it technically costs you nothing and probably does something really helpful if you get an opportunity to do what you want. But nevertheless, my impression has generally been negative; I feel like each of these cards started out with stronger design in mind, and later got gutted somehow. None of them really give me what I think is an absolutely busted play on the regular. I feel like they're cards you include because they're just good and they resolve with a shrug.
I think the average case scenario is that anyone who includes them will see them played, but it might be occupying the slot of another card that offers something else interesting of it's own. So I'm kinda in the "is it worth a cube slot" club. Like, I could sub this in for Treasure Cruise, but that was a cool card for delve. Or if I subbed this for a Draw X spell, that might have had the benefit of being instant. And so on.
Of course. There's a cost to including anything in the cube. I'm just in the camp of this being one of the first modal land/spell hybrid cards that feels exciting enough to test out. I like all the mythic ones for the flexibility of the land option, and a lot of the other MDFCs that have the land as a "safety net" of sorts, which can help opening hands be more consistently keepable and the like. If you can't find room, I understand that. But I think that IF you can, you'll likely find an acceptable degree of success. Enough so for me to at least try it before dismissing the effect. Like you said, this design is new, and there's just as much of a chance that it's being overrated by its supporters than there is of it being underrated by those that dislike the design. Only time and testing can show to me which one it is. I like the recipe of "potential bomb//lower opportunity cost" more than the "marginal upside//low opportunity cost" cards that give you both. For me, it all relates to the consistency of the floor.
I'm erring on the side of optimism with the mythic cycle, and erring on the side of caution with the ETBT MDFCs.
I think Sea Gate Restoration could make a fine addition to this deck.
Unfortunately, Dream Halls isn't a redundant effect. The only card that could be a replacement is Cadaverous Bloom.
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I like this quite a bit more than Castle, personally. This can provide me with an untapped land at any point where I need it to, and has the potential to generate massive card advantage on occasion. But obviously this design is super polarizing, so we're never going to find consensus here.
I agree with you this card is stronger than Boon of the Wish Giver, just not with your argument. SGR will compete for deck slots with lands, and can replace a basic island. Boon is not a consistent mana source, and therefore replaces a spell in deck construction. Boon just faces stronger competition, so it has a higher bar to hold up to.
I see SGR as a card I will side out against aggressive decks. The spell is very expensive and does nothing to the board and paying 3 life is very risky. However, Castle Vantress is not a card I'd be sad to see go at all. I'll follow results with SGR closely to see if I should make this swap.
@wtwlf123, how do you compare this to the white mythic angels and the green Regrowth land?
I like and plan on playing all of them. I can't really say how they'll perform in comparison to one another, since I haven't seen any of them in action yet. As I get more playtesting reps in, their respective "order" (if that even matters) will bbecome more apparent. If I had to guess now, I think this is my least favorite of those three? IDK.
Another problem I see with this card is that an overcosted draw effect is at its best when you’re out of or low on cards. I envision many scenarios where tapping out to draw 4+ cards is not the best play, given that you have at least 2-3 meaningful spells in hand at that point in the game, and for that reason this card feels like a Divination in the situations where it’s most useful. Or if you’re literally empty-handed in topdeck mode... yikes. Compare this to the white one, for example, where 2 4/4 angels in a lategame topdeck war is awesome.
I’d be more interested if it were a split land variant of a sorcery draw 4 effect as insurance for the flood / low action scenarios.
I'll have to think more about the Dream halls, Cadaverous Bloom deck. With this card potentially added into the cube, we're going to have an abundance of "draw 7" effects. I really think we need to look into how we can leverage the massive card advantage more effectively.
I really wish there could be a second Dream Halls effect ...
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The card doesn't force you to play bad Magic. If your other plays are better, make those plays instead. However, in situations where you don't have a better play, you're getting more value from this than you would be from that basic land that would've been in its spot.
There will be plenty of situations where you can cast this with a decent amount of cards in your hand (ramp, draw 7's, other earlier card draw, etc.) and the ceiling on the spell is still big game.
Seems like it could be a cool late-game card to return to my hand with like Meloku, Venser or part of a Cryptic Command to set up a big draw after using it as a land earlier in the game.
I think you‘re missing my point. I’m not saying anyone would/should play bad Magic and cast this in situations where you have better spells, but the fact that those are the situations where you would draw a significant number of cards from this show that it does not have the upside that a card like this would preferably have, which would be helping you in situations where you are low on cards or have no cards. Therefore comparing it to 6 mana draw 4s isn’t a great comparison. I think it’s more like a 7 mana Divination where casting it would be most helpful - i.e., you’re lategame with nothing better to do than draw more cards for tapping out 7 mana.
And yes of course a 7 mana Divination in those situations would be better than drawing a land, but at this point we are weighing the pay 3 nonbasic vs Island opportunity cost and Cube slot opportunity cost with a very different set of upside assumptions.
I find this debate interesting, and I don't have particularly strong feelings. I'd be eager to be shown that this card is worth its weight.
Low opportunity cost is huge, but what about Minamo, School at Water's Edge? I don't think that sees a lot of cube play, but it's got no opportunity cost and a pretty major upside. Maybe that means people should be playing Minamo. But it certainly means the flip side needs to actually be worthwhile. I'm not saying this isn't though. I'm willing to be convinced.
My point was not that it's nearly as low impact as flagstones (it's not), but that it's in a similar space where every deck will run it but that's not enough for me to cube it. Just "going in every deck of this color" isn't enough to get a card in cube, or else every cube would run flagstones. So it has to have some bigger impact than just going in every deck. This one doesn't get there for me as I see it being a land the vast majority of the time and drawing 1 or 2 cards a lot of the time you cast it as a spell. Better than having a land when you have 7 mana? Sure. Better enough (and frequent enough) that I want to cut another card for it? Nope. It is SO MUCH lower impact than the white one.
Edit - and this isn't just a free roll. When it's played as a land it's worse than an island. If you absolutely need to hit your 4th land drop and this is what you draw against aggro, that's a real cost. It also can't be fetched, but since no deck where blue wasn't a main color would run this, I don't think that would be an issue.
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Well they are the spell side in every zone but in play, so you can always fall back on that =P
But seriously, since you have lands sections in each color anyway (as I do) I'd classify all the DFC land/spells as lands, as that's the reason you're playing them. No one would play any of these for just the spell side.
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The opportunity cost of including it in your cube over another, more interesting card, is the real opportunity cost to consider.
The mystical tutor synergy may make me change my mind on that, as that's a cool interaction. There may be more of those than meets the eye.
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But even the cost of playing this card in a deck is understated I think. It’s worse than an Island against any aggressive deck.
This is very far from my experience with cycling. I often cycle to find an answer/blocker, or just to use mana at an end of turn if I have one free because I didn't counter something, and/or do not expect the spell side to be more relevant than a random card at this point in time.
The red one cannot go to face.
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Oh right. Still the best of the 3 though.
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I think the philosophy behind liking this card is the same as that which is applied to a card like Boon of the Wish-Giver. The high ceiling when flooded + safe floor otherwise has some appeal to a lot of folks. The mythic Sea Gate design is that same concept, just dialed up to 11. In the spell mode, Boon is more consistent, and has a higher floor but lower ceiling than Sea Gate Restoration does in its spell mode. The opposite is true for the cycling half of the card. Boon's cycling has a higher ceiling, but a lower floor. With Sea Gate, Restored you get a land 100% of the time. Which allows you to potentially keep opening hands that you might otherwise need to mulligan, and it guarantees you a blue source when you do it. For me, the consistency of the "islandcycling" mode is more important (especially since it can be Islandcycling: 1 or Islandcycling: Pay 3 life depending on your curve). The value from Boon is far more consistent as a spell, but I'm more willing to do a high-risk/high-reward design on the big mana side, and err on the side of more consistency with the "cycling" mode.
Not every cube will have room for an effect like Boon or Sea Gate, but I think medium- to large-sized cubes that are looking for a modal big draw/safe floor effect can find success with either of these cards, and I prefer this one to Boon for the reasons I just detailed above. Impact on opening 7 security and a true cycling safety net if you need to dig for lands ...those two advantages appeal more to me than the average value of the big-mana side of the card. Again, just my $0.02. I'm not calling this a 360 staple. But I do think this has appeal in a lot of lists, that are looking for a Boon-esque effect. I'm stoked to try it, and expect it to play well, but I understand the issues that small cubes have with making room. Cutting blue cards is painful, and I can't fault anyone for failing to find room.
Sorry if this thread got too heated before, or if I was sounding off like an ass. You guys know me by now, lol.
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I think the problem here is that most people come at these reviews from a perspective of Cube that is rooted in higher power levels which leads to maximizing efficiency across the board. The result is, feedback that doesn't really account for inclusion by intention - that is to say, including cards because they intentionally manipulate one, two, or more, dials that tune a Cube.
I have no doubt that some Cube out there could use something like this... but when considering the typical threshold used for these discussions, this card isn't impressive. For Cubes with lower power levels, this card might be nice. But once again, in an environment where people are popping out things like Liliana, Dreadhord General on turn 4, Sea Gate Restoration isn't cutting the mustard in my eyes, especially in big mana blue.
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I think because this "land or spell" style of card is new, we're probably all over the place as far as evaluation goes. Kinda reminds me of drafting Conspiracies; like it technically costs you nothing and probably does something really helpful if you get an opportunity to do what you want. But nevertheless, my impression has generally been negative; I feel like each of these cards started out with stronger design in mind, and later got gutted somehow. None of them really give me what I think is an absolutely busted play on the regular. I feel like they're cards you include because they're just good and they resolve with a shrug.
I think the average case scenario is that anyone who includes them will see them played, but it might be occupying the slot of another card that offers something else interesting of it's own. So I'm kinda in the "is it worth a cube slot" club. Like, I could sub this in for Treasure Cruise, but that was a cool card for delve. Or if I subbed this for a Draw X spell, that might have had the benefit of being instant. And so on.
I'm erring on the side of optimism with the mythic cycle, and erring on the side of caution with the ETBT MDFCs.
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Dream Halls
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Dreams Halls is a card I had in my cube for the longest time after the printing of additional discard, draw 7:
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I think Sea Gate Restoration could make a fine addition to this deck.
Unfortunately, Dream Halls isn't a redundant effect. The only card that could be a replacement is Cadaverous Bloom.
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I agree with you this card is stronger than Boon of the Wish Giver, just not with your argument. SGR will compete for deck slots with lands, and can replace a basic island. Boon is not a consistent mana source, and therefore replaces a spell in deck construction. Boon just faces stronger competition, so it has a higher bar to hold up to.
I see SGR as a card I will side out against aggressive decks. The spell is very expensive and does nothing to the board and paying 3 life is very risky. However, Castle Vantress is not a card I'd be sad to see go at all. I'll follow results with SGR closely to see if I should make this swap.
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I like and plan on playing all of them. I can't really say how they'll perform in comparison to one another, since I haven't seen any of them in action yet. As I get more playtesting reps in, their respective "order" (if that even matters) will bbecome more apparent. If I had to guess now, I think this is my least favorite of those three? IDK.
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I’d be more interested if it were a split land variant of a sorcery draw 4 effect as insurance for the flood / low action scenarios.
I'll have to think more about the Dream halls, Cadaverous Bloom deck. With this card potentially added into the cube, we're going to have an abundance of "draw 7" effects. I really think we need to look into how we can leverage the massive card advantage more effectively.
I really wish there could be a second Dream Halls effect ...
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There will be plenty of situations where you can cast this with a decent amount of cards in your hand (ramp, draw 7's, other earlier card draw, etc.) and the ceiling on the spell is still big game.
Seems like it could be a cool late-game card to return to my hand with like Meloku, Venser or part of a Cryptic Command to set up a big draw after using it as a land earlier in the game.
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And yes of course a 7 mana Divination in those situations would be better than drawing a land, but at this point we are weighing the pay 3 nonbasic vs Island opportunity cost and Cube slot opportunity cost with a very different set of upside assumptions.
Low opportunity cost is huge, but what about Minamo, School at Water's Edge? I don't think that sees a lot of cube play, but it's got no opportunity cost and a pretty major upside. Maybe that means people should be playing Minamo. But it certainly means the flip side needs to actually be worthwhile. I'm not saying this isn't though. I'm willing to be convinced.
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