I appreciate you making the case Blue_Oneironaut rather than just positing this cards "absurdity" as fact.
I guess I'm just shocked that some folks seem to be having such a hard time evaluating this card. It seems so completely obvious how insane this card is that I don't really know how to articulate it without saying something that everyone should already know.
This can be a tapped land when my curve can afford it, and can come into play untapped when needed. This flexibility allows it to replace a land during deckbuilding, rather than a spell.
When I don't need a land, I can play it as a spell. This is an upside that other lands don't have.
So, for 1RR, I can kill any Lion or Piker in the entire cube. Plus lots of high-priority 1-toughness targets, like Dark Confidant, Rodellos, Lotus Cobra, Goblin Welder, Flickerwisp, Vendillion Clique, Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer or what-have-you. Or at the end of combat, I can strap on the last bit of damage needed to clip down an opponent's planeswalker that I was just short of killing with combat damage.
So even in it's lowest mana, lowest impact spell form, it kills a third of the creatures in my cube. It only scales up in flexability and versatility from there. This is in addition to being a tapped or untapped land, of course.
How many Dark Confidants can that Mountain in your deck kill? Oh, is it zero? That's what I thought.
That's why it's a completely absurd Magic card. It's a land that can also double as a scaleable, impactful spell when I don't need a land.
It scales appropriately from the baseline too. 4 mana and you can add all Bears and priority 2-toughness targets to the list, or kill a pair of targets in the 3-mana mode. In the 5 mana mode, you can have one of each! It continues this way all the way up the chain. It gives red an out to Baneslayers if you're flooding. Eventually, it scales into an absurd bomb, where you can have access to 12+ dividable damage. I've never seen a card that takes up a land slot be able to kill 2 Titans before.
I think this is the single most flexible Magic card I have ever evaluated before. It can replace a land during deckbuilding because it can be two different land forms, and it's castable for meaningful value at every spot in the curve from the 3cmc slot up.
Again, this is a Mountain that can kill a Rofellos. /fin
tl;dr - Lol, this card is so absurdly good it's not even funny.
This is definitely the most flexible spell land. The other mythics in the cycle (besides the black one which hasn't been spoiled yet) can't be until deep into the late game, where can be cast as early as turn 3. Due to its flexibility in cost and the fact that it's red, this is the only mythic MDFC that can be comfortably played in any archetype really.
Because of those facts, I think this card is going to be very ubiquitous: any deck where red is a primary color can maindeck this comfortably, period. This set is very difficult to evaluate because we're so used to the absurd cards being things like Oko, where it dominates every format it's legal in due to its raw power / cost ratio. While I don't see the MDFCs dominating any format outside of standard, their versatility is unprecedented, and this is the most versatile one of them all.
IMO control has been on the decline lately since the threats / diversification of said threats have outpaced the answers / defensive options. These spell lands benefitting control decks the most are exactly what I'm looking for.
just out of curiosity what are you cutting wtwlf? that is where I am having the hardest time trying to include it.
I don't think it matters. Whatever your worst card is? IDK. There is no like-for-like effect to replace, so that's going to be up to each individual cube manager.
I think this card is a bit inbetween the extremes being presented here.
It's a good card, but I don't think it's an absurd magic card by any stretch.
The thing to recognize here, in my opinion, is that if the spell side is overcosted by more than 1 mana, then the card is not much better than a Forgotten Cave that allowed you to shock instead of CITP.
I think a Forgotten Cave with ETBT or pay 3 life upgrade would be maybe a 630+ card.
This card is probably better than that (although with Wrenn and Six, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam synergy that's not a lock) because the spell side is probably a bit better than what you'll cycle into. But I don't think it's miles apart. That makes me think this is probably a 540+ or 450+ card.
I'll watch it, but I don't think I'm cutting anything from my 360 list just yet.
Let's leave the obvious Forgotten Cave comparison for a bit, and compare these cards to an actual Cube all-star: Karakas. It's always an untapped land, never costs you life (3 life is a TON) and has an actual (not always, but often) insane effect stapled onto it! I love Karakas way more than most, and I just don't see how these cards even stack up remotely to a land like that. In fact, you can make a similar case for pretty much all of the commonly played utility lands in Cube, these actually have desirable effects and you still play them as a land first, you get both!
I think this card is way better than Karakas (which I don't run - I think it's unexciting). Karakas hits 70 creatures in my cube, out of 285. This feels like a lot, but it's going to be blank against a lot of boards, and just be a land. This can instead permanently remove two threats, instead of just stranding one in their hand.
This is worse than like...Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins, plus Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave. That's a pretty high bar, in my opinion, and I think it's arguable that this will be more relevant than Academy Ruins (and also situationally than Stronghold since it doesn't generate colored mana), so being below three to four lands is pretty good. Also these effects can be very large when you use them instead of gaining incremental value. I'll be way more excited to topdeck these lands in the late game than most utility lands.
I disagree. Karakas is incredibly strong, and as far as I'm concerned it's the third best mono-colored land (Behind Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy), but that doesn't take away from this card's powerlevel.
They are completely different cards, and I don't think it's an apt comparison at all. One is a land that generates value after you play it, the other is a land that generates value if you don't play it. They are not functionally similar in the slightest bit besides the fact that they can both make mana. The closest comparison is probably Rolling Thunder, a card that is incredibly powerful in pauper/peasant/limited, but struggles outside of those formats due to the fact that it does nothing before turn 4 or 5. As it turns out though, this card does do something powerful before turn 4 or 5, meaning there is a precedent for this card to be good, and it doesn't involve comparing itself to other lands that are functionally completely different.
I think comparisons to Forgotten Cave are missing the boat completely. Neither one of these effects are cycling. There's no random component to the effect. If you need a land, you always get a land. If you need a spell, you always get a spell. When you cycle a card, it's only a land or a spell a certain percentage of the time, so it has a fail rate that these mythic MDFCs simply don't have. So the spell side of Shatterskull is not the same as cycling ...in the same way that the cycling side of a random spell is not the same as it being strapped to an actual land.
And as far as Karakas (and other current utility land options go) those lands either always come with either a lower floor, a lower ceiling, or issues with consistency. All of these MDFCs are capable of BIG GAME plays, and they come attached to a land that taps for colored mana, doesn't have to enter the battlefield tapped, and it strapped to a spell that is capable of functioning like a bomb. Sometimes Karakas is powerful, but there's also a bunch of times where it doesn't do anything. It might not impact a game at all. None of the currently run utility lands in the cube have ceilings as high as these spells unless they have floors that are much lower. Karakas is a great card. So is Shatterskull. And for very different reasons.
So with an effect like Treetop Village, for example, yes. You always get both the land and the utility effect. But it also always enters the battlefield tapped. And the ceiling on it is never worth a pair of Titans. At its best, it can trade away for card parity. Volrath's Stronghold also gives you both the land and the utility option together ...but it also only generates card selection by itself, and taps for colorless mana. True MDFCs that can enter tapped or untapped are truly unprecedented designs. I think they're all powerful and worth extensive playtesting and exploring to see how they perform.
I appreciate you making the case Blue_Oneironaut rather than just positing this cards "absurdity" as fact.
I guess I'm just shocked that some folks seem to be having such a hard time evaluating this card. It seems so completely obvious how insane this card is that I don't really know how to articulate it without saying something that everyone should already know.
And yet you found a way right after stating this....
A 1RR sorcery that can ping (this is an effect that exists for "free" at instant speed and can hit the face - Gut Shot) is not selling this card to me. There isn't a lack of awareness regarding what the card "can" do, it is an understanding that usually this will just be a land with a drawback and when it's not you've vastly overpaid for the spell unless you got X to equal 6. How many red decks (unless they are red/green) are reaching 8 mana? Obviously, this will make for great stories when it happens, but also this is such a corner case that I definitely wouldn't swap out an existing option for this. To be clear, I don't think this is a bad card. I just wouldn't run it in my 450 unpowered. Maybe powered or fast mana cubes are expecting to see X = 6 with more regularity? Couldn't say. Looking forward to seeing the black one, hope it is on par with the Green.
Couple specs for fun.
Black Bolt Land - Tutor Spell
Side 1: ETBT unless you pay 3 life. T: Add B
Side 2: Sorcery XBB, search your library for a card with a converted mana cost of X or less. Reveal it and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.
Black Bolt Land - Memoricide Spell
Side 1: ETBT unless you pay 3 life. T: Add B
Side 2: Sorcery XXBBB, Choose X nonland card names. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles their library.
And yet you found a way right after stating this....
Well I can't do all the important work before my article drops, lol.
Quote from BlackWaltz3 »
A 1RR sorcery that can ping (this is an effect that exists for "free" at instant speed and can hit the face - Gut Shot) is not selling this card to me.
If that's what you took away from my post, I don't know what to say.
This is a tapped land, an untapped land, and a castable spell at literally every single spot in the curve from 3-mana on up. It impacts the board, can generate card advantage and is literally replacing a basic land when deckbuilding. It's probably the most flexible card I've ever had to evaluate.
edit: The tutor land looks amazing; I'd slam that in a second!
I disagree. Karakas is incredibly strong, and as far as I'm concerned it's the third best mono-colored land (Behind Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy), but that doesn't take away from this card's powerlevel.
They are completely different cards, and I don't think it's an apt comparison at all. One is a land that generates value after you play it, the other is a land that generates value if you don't play it. They are not functionally similar in the slightest bit besides the fact that they can both make mana. The closest comparison is probably Rolling Thunder, a card that is incredibly powerful in pauper/peasant/limited, but struggles outside of those formats due to the fact that it does nothing before turn 4 or 5. As it turns out though, this card does do something powerful before turn 4 or 5, meaning there is a precedent for this card to be good, and it doesn't involve comparing itself to other lands that are functionally completely different.
Oh yeah, I was ignoring Gaea’s Cradle/Tolarian Academy, because I don’t consider them “utility lands”. They’re definitely more powerful, I just think they’re a different beast. I feel Karakas is just wildly inconsistent in cube, and it’s not an effect I feel is interesting enough to warrant a slot with that inconsistency, although I acknowledge that when it’s good, it’s quite good. I’m still more interested in what these bring to the table.
So even in it's lowest mana, lowest impact spell form, it kills a third of the creatures in my cube. It only scales up in flexability and versatility from there. This is in addition to being a tapped or untapped land, of course.
Thanks for spelling this out, wtwlf. I feel like I was vaguely aware of the application, but you prompted me to actually check how many targets I've got, and yeah, a third of our creatures are actually 1 toughness. I normally would scoff at 1 damage just out of reflex, but you're warming me to this card (and this cycle) the more it gets talked about.
I was a skeptic and I ended up buying into this card big-time after seeing its standard performance. My final evaluation is that the Red, Green, and White are the most cubeable in that order. The black one might be okay for 540+ (great in standard rogues, but that deck doesn't translate well to most cubes) and the blue one just isn't good enough unless the power level of your cube is quite low. The Rogue is a better option for a blue DFC.
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I guess I'm just shocked that some folks seem to be having such a hard time evaluating this card. It seems so completely obvious how insane this card is that I don't really know how to articulate it without saying something that everyone should already know.
This can be a tapped land when my curve can afford it, and can come into play untapped when needed. This flexibility allows it to replace a land during deckbuilding, rather than a spell.
When I don't need a land, I can play it as a spell. This is an upside that other lands don't have.
So, for 1RR, I can kill any Lion or Piker in the entire cube. Plus lots of high-priority 1-toughness targets, like Dark Confidant, Rodellos, Lotus Cobra, Goblin Welder, Flickerwisp, Vendillion Clique, Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer or what-have-you. Or at the end of combat, I can strap on the last bit of damage needed to clip down an opponent's planeswalker that I was just short of killing with combat damage.
So even in it's lowest mana, lowest impact spell form, it kills a third of the creatures in my cube. It only scales up in flexability and versatility from there. This is in addition to being a tapped or untapped land, of course.
How many Dark Confidants can that Mountain in your deck kill? Oh, is it zero? That's what I thought.
That's why it's a completely absurd Magic card. It's a land that can also double as a scaleable, impactful spell when I don't need a land.
It scales appropriately from the baseline too. 4 mana and you can add all Bears and priority 2-toughness targets to the list, or kill a pair of targets in the 3-mana mode. In the 5 mana mode, you can have one of each! It continues this way all the way up the chain. It gives red an out to Baneslayers if you're flooding. Eventually, it scales into an absurd bomb, where you can have access to 12+ dividable damage. I've never seen a card that takes up a land slot be able to kill 2 Titans before.
I think this is the single most flexible Magic card I have ever evaluated before. It can replace a land during deckbuilding because it can be two different land forms, and it's castable for meaningful value at every spot in the curve from the 3cmc slot up.
Again, this is a Mountain that can kill a Rofellos. /fin
tl;dr - Lol, this card is so absurdly good it's not even funny.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Because of those facts, I think this card is going to be very ubiquitous: any deck where red is a primary color can maindeck this comfortably, period. This set is very difficult to evaluate because we're so used to the absurd cards being things like Oko, where it dominates every format it's legal in due to its raw power / cost ratio. While I don't see the MDFCs dominating any format outside of standard, their versatility is unprecedented, and this is the most versatile one of them all.
IMO control has been on the decline lately since the threats / diversification of said threats have outpaced the answers / defensive options. These spell lands benefitting control decks the most are exactly what I'm looking for.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I don't think it matters. Whatever your worst card is? IDK. There is no like-for-like effect to replace, so that's going to be up to each individual cube manager.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
It's a good card, but I don't think it's an absurd magic card by any stretch.
The thing to recognize here, in my opinion, is that if the spell side is overcosted by more than 1 mana, then the card is not much better than a Forgotten Cave that allowed you to shock instead of CITP.
I think a Forgotten Cave with ETBT or pay 3 life upgrade would be maybe a 630+ card.
This card is probably better than that (although with Wrenn and Six, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam synergy that's not a lock) because the spell side is probably a bit better than what you'll cycle into. But I don't think it's miles apart. That makes me think this is probably a 540+ or 450+ card.
I'll watch it, but I don't think I'm cutting anything from my 360 list just yet.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
This is worse than like...Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins, plus Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave. That's a pretty high bar, in my opinion, and I think it's arguable that this will be more relevant than Academy Ruins (and also situationally than Stronghold since it doesn't generate colored mana), so being below three to four lands is pretty good. Also these effects can be very large when you use them instead of gaining incremental value. I'll be way more excited to topdeck these lands in the late game than most utility lands.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
They are completely different cards, and I don't think it's an apt comparison at all. One is a land that generates value after you play it, the other is a land that generates value if you don't play it. They are not functionally similar in the slightest bit besides the fact that they can both make mana. The closest comparison is probably Rolling Thunder, a card that is incredibly powerful in pauper/peasant/limited, but struggles outside of those formats due to the fact that it does nothing before turn 4 or 5. As it turns out though, this card does do something powerful before turn 4 or 5, meaning there is a precedent for this card to be good, and it doesn't involve comparing itself to other lands that are functionally completely different.
And as far as Karakas (and other current utility land options go) those lands either always come with either a lower floor, a lower ceiling, or issues with consistency. All of these MDFCs are capable of BIG GAME plays, and they come attached to a land that taps for colored mana, doesn't have to enter the battlefield tapped, and it strapped to a spell that is capable of functioning like a bomb. Sometimes Karakas is powerful, but there's also a bunch of times where it doesn't do anything. It might not impact a game at all. None of the currently run utility lands in the cube have ceilings as high as these spells unless they have floors that are much lower. Karakas is a great card. So is Shatterskull. And for very different reasons.
So with an effect like Treetop Village, for example, yes. You always get both the land and the utility effect. But it also always enters the battlefield tapped. And the ceiling on it is never worth a pair of Titans. At its best, it can trade away for card parity. Volrath's Stronghold also gives you both the land and the utility option together ...but it also only generates card selection by itself, and taps for colorless mana. True MDFCs that can enter tapped or untapped are truly unprecedented designs. I think they're all powerful and worth extensive playtesting and exploring to see how they perform.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
And yet you found a way right after stating this....
A 1RR sorcery that can ping (this is an effect that exists for "free" at instant speed and can hit the face - Gut Shot) is not selling this card to me. There isn't a lack of awareness regarding what the card "can" do, it is an understanding that usually this will just be a land with a drawback and when it's not you've vastly overpaid for the spell unless you got X to equal 6. How many red decks (unless they are red/green) are reaching 8 mana? Obviously, this will make for great stories when it happens, but also this is such a corner case that I definitely wouldn't swap out an existing option for this. To be clear, I don't think this is a bad card. I just wouldn't run it in my 450 unpowered. Maybe powered or fast mana cubes are expecting to see X = 6 with more regularity? Couldn't say. Looking forward to seeing the black one, hope it is on par with the Green.
Couple specs for fun.
Black Bolt Land - Tutor Spell
Side 1: ETBT unless you pay 3 life. T: Add B
Side 2: Sorcery XBB, search your library for a card with a converted mana cost of X or less. Reveal it and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.
Black Bolt Land - Memoricide Spell
Side 1: ETBT unless you pay 3 life. T: Add B
Side 2: Sorcery XXBBB, Choose X nonland card names. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles their library.
Well I can't do all the important work before my article drops, lol.
If that's what you took away from my post, I don't know what to say.
This is a tapped land, an untapped land, and a castable spell at literally every single spot in the curve from 3-mana on up. It impacts the board, can generate card advantage and is literally replacing a basic land when deckbuilding. It's probably the most flexible card I've ever had to evaluate.
edit: The tutor land looks amazing; I'd slam that in a second!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Thanks for spelling this out, wtwlf. I feel like I was vaguely aware of the application, but you prompted me to actually check how many targets I've got, and yeah, a third of our creatures are actually 1 toughness. I normally would scoff at 1 damage just out of reflex, but you're warming me to this card (and this cycle) the more it gets talked about.
Maindeck: 100%
Win Ratio: 23W:13L - 63.89% Win rate.