Kaheera and Umori seem like clear(er) whiffs to me. The rest definitely seem defensible to me. You may end up with some awkward pinch points when you need to keep track of what you've drafted, but the mechanic is absurdly strong (my experience up to now being non-Cube-centric). In addition to the changes I was previously planning (spoilered here for easier referencing), I'm considering trying the following, but am not yet committed to them:
Jegantha ends up on the outside looking in largely because I couldn't find something I'd cut, but if I opened one, I'd consider making a temporary swap for a non-Dragonlord Atarka card to see if people liked it for enabling wonky multicolor goodstuff decks. Lurrus, Lutri, and Zirda are already in the spoilered list above.
EDIT: I think that a higher-powered cube has enough strong things at various points along the curve that you can generally pass up some things (like odd-CMCs with Gyruda) and still end up with a solid deck. The main issue I might have with so many is that it muddies the signals being sent. If you have Gyruda and you just start passing a lot of blue & black odd-cmc cards but are firmly in that color combo, the people to your left may get tricked into thinking the combo is open (although they do theoretically still have access to half of it)!
They're all good. Every one of them is cube playable. The mechanic is broken.
Wait, what? Lutri is obviously an exception, but the others require some due diligence during drafting, so I imagine most of them will not be playable as a companion if they show up mid to late draft. So how is the mechanic broken in cube?
If you just mean having an active companion is broken, I agree with you. But for most of the cards with that keyword it won't be that easy to actually use them as companions, right?
Correct. Having an active companion is broken. So if you can draft one early and make that happen, you should, because the payoff is worth what you're giving up. When drafted later on, Companion can be hard to make work, but fortunately a lot of them are still just playable cards on their own.
The combination of how busted they are as companions and how they're still often playable as cards in your deck is what sells them as good cube cards.
Obviously there's levels of difference between them; Lutri is power/conspiracy-adjacent in powerlevel. Lurrus is at or near the top of his respective colors. The others are competitive, and have varying powerlevels, but they're all good.
I meant the mechanic is what's broken. It's worth trying to unlock that mechanic in order to have access to how powerful it is. The hoops you have to jump through for some of them balances them out a bit.
I was afraid the mechanic was going to be busted. Unfortunately, they're even more busted than I was hoping for. So much so that even the fringe ones are worth building towards.
I'm currently playing all 10 in my cube, and would likely do that at any size for any cube. I'm hoping the entire mechanic gets a conspiracy-esque banning and get relegated to kitchen tables where it belongs. It's a miserable mechanic, IMO, and it's basically ruining every format it's a part of.
Look at constructed right now. I mean, in constructed, every deck that can possibly run Lurrus is willing to pass on every permanent card with a CMC>2 just to have access to it. Players are playing 80-card decks ...in standard and modern... just to have access to Yorion. Ultimately it's worth giving the farm away to get access to the extra card. I thought the mechanic was broken, and it's even better than I thought it would be.
I'm currently playing all 10 in my cube, and would likely do that at any size for any cube. I'm hoping the entire mechanic gets a conspiracy-esque banning and get relegated to kitchen tables where it belongs. It's a miserable mechanic, IMO, and it's basically ruining every format it's a part of.
Thanks for sounding the alarm on these things. I made the decision not to run them largely because of your explanations. Quick question though: since companion is such a miserable mechanic, why haven't you excluded them from your cube?
I'll give them their day in the sun. Plus, I don't ban cards for being too good, even if some of them have unreasonable powerlevels. We'll see what happens with Magic moving forward. Maybe they'll fix or ban the mechanic, I guess time will tell.
I'm currently playing all 10 in my cube, and would likely do that at any size for any cube. I'm hoping the entire mechanic gets a conspiracy-esque banning and get relegated to kitchen tables where it belongs. It's a miserable mechanic, IMO, and it's basically ruining every format it's a part of.
Look at constructed right now. I mean, in constructed, every deck that can possibly run Lurrus is willing to pass on every permanent card with a CMC>2 just to have access to it. Players are playing 80-card decks ...in standard and modern... just to have access to Yorion. Ultimately it's worth giving the farm away to get access to the extra card. I thought the mechanic was broken, and it's even better than I thought it would be.
Have all ten seen play as a companion? Do you have examples of such scenarios? I am curious and need convincing
Having decks with 80 cards actually sounds like a selling point to me. This is the type of deck that will never be organically competitive, having a possibility to build a radically different deck that goes against conventions sounds awesome.
Yes, all 10 have been played as companions so far. Some are easier than others tho, to be sure.
The 60-caard limited deck is harder to pull off than the 80-card constructed deck, but I've seen it in testing already. Bant ETB/goodstuff wound up with enough playables to bbuild a 60-card Yorion deck, and it was pretty sweet. It's also a fine include in the conventional 40-card variants of those same shells if it shows up late.
Keruga is the hardest one to build as a companion in cube, IMO, while still having the deck be competitive. But with some ETBT lands, some cycling cards and a few spells that have 3+cmc and cheaper casting options, it can be playable as a companion. Force of Will/Negation, Dismember, Legionnaire, Snuff Out, etc. The other 9 come together as companions with relative ease when drafted early. Fortunately, it might be the best of the bunch as a non-companion, so it makes up for it. It's just a good creature to put in your deck.
I'll see if I can do a mini-primer with deck examples at some point.
Interesting. Can I ask how the Kaheera and Umori decks came together and how they were as decks? The former I just don't have a high hit-rate, but could see theoretically coming together. Was Umori just in a deck that was exclusively creatures?
As a companion, Umori decks have been exclusively creatures, yes. And there's lots of creatures that function as spells, so you don't have to give up that much if it's drafted early.
An early Kaheera deck can actually come together quite consistently.
Vaguely related, all of these additions have me finally considering expanding my cube for the first time in several years, so I'm excited to do some theorizing on expanding it from the odd 495 all the way to 630.
This also gives me something Magic-related to do during this lockdown that isn't just Arena.
I just put in all 10 campanion cards just to try it out. The First thing I noticed is how fun the first pack can be to open for everyone. Between Power, the companions, and the other top cards, there are a lot less bummer moments where you open a pack where there are good cards but nothing amazing. Maybe the excitement will come back down after a while, but it is a nice change for now.
I just put in all 10 campanion cards just to try it out.
I'm thinking about doing this exactly. I'll slot all ten into our Conspiracy package and then just cut back on them once we see how they each play out and how popular they are. I've not yet had the chance to play with them in cube (and unfortunately probably won't get that chance for quite some time), but I definitely look forward to trying them out.
Right, sorry I wasn't specific enough: was curious if anyone has removed Lurrus due to the Vintage banning, and if that has caused anyone to revisit the inclusion of those cards generally.
I have not changed my mind on them (yet). On the flip side, I am now testing more Ikoria cards than I planned before. In addition to my already expanded list above, I'm now testing:
Right, sorry I wasn't specific enough: was curious if anyone has removed Lurrus due to the Vintage banning, and if that has caused anyone to revisit the inclusion of those cards generally.
Does anyone have any demonstrable testing showing Lurrus or Companions as a group to be dominating in Cube? They're obviously good if you can meet their condition(s) but that's not quite as trivial as it's proving to be in constructed formats.
Right, sorry I wasn't specific enough: was curious if anyone has removed Lurrus due to the Vintage banning, and if that has caused anyone to revisit the inclusion of those cards generally.
Does anyone have any demonstrable testing showing Lurrus or Companions as a group to be dominating in Cube? They're obviously good if you can meet their condition(s) but that's not quite as trivial as it's proving to be in constructed formats.
What is demonstrable testing? Lutri is the stone cold n*ts.
They're all disgusting. Playing Magic with 8 cards >>>>>>>>> whatever you have to give up to satisfy their deckbuilding restrictions. All 10 were in my cube, and now I'm playing none of them. They pushed me into making a decision I've been on the fence about for a while, which is banning cards that reference the "outside the game" zone. One quick design restriction later, and I have a nice safe haven where I can avoid running into companions. As a mechanic, it has single-handedly made me lose interest in non-Cube Magic (outside of formats like 93/94 and middle school of course, where we can still play regular 7-card Magic).
To be completely honest I am not sure whether some restrictions are worth the payoff.
Keruga, for example, invalidates all 0-2 manacost cards. Sure you can get around this a little with Adventure cards or Evoke cards, but skipping your first two turns of the game seems backbreaking, especially if you're up against a streamlined aggro deck. You also lose out on a lot of good interaction like removal spells and counters and cantrips, which tend to be 1-2 CMC. Keruga itself is entirely bad as a maindeck card too.
Similarly, Umori as a creatures-only deck is very inflexible and while you still have Adventure/Evoke cards to fall back on for interaction, it's very inflexible and you risk being blown out by boardwipes. You don't even get to play Planeswalkers! Umori is an OK curve filler at 4CMC, but very unexciting maindeck.
They're all disgusting. Playing Magic with 8 cards >>>>>>>>> whatever you have to give up to satisfy their deckbuilding restrictions. All 10 were in my cube, and now I'm playing none of them. They pushed me into making a decision I've been on the fence about for a while, which is banning cards that reference the "outside the game" zone. One quick design restriction later, and I have a nice safe haven where I can avoid running into companions. As a mechanic, it has single-handedly made me lose interest in non-Cube Magic (outside of formats like 93/94 and middle school of course, where we can still play regular 7-card Magic).
To be fair, the draft format you play has a big effect on how easy it is to build decks around the restrictions. We play regular booster draft and I think in many cases drafting a deck to satisfy the restrictions will be impossible.
It's not. A lot of the test drafting was done on CubeCobra, which only supports regular drafts. All of the companions were easily built around if drafted early. Some are harder than others, but they're all very doable, and they're all very good.
I don't know about you but the decks I build on CubeCobra tend to be far better than the decks I get in paper draft - I suspect bot and human drafting patterns are different enough that it's not really representative.
It's not. A lot of the test drafting was done on CubeCobra, which only supports regular drafts. All of the companions were easily built around if drafted early. Some are harder than others, but they're all very doable, and they're all very good.
I'm saying that because you are playing a lot of synergy-decks that revolve around a small group of cards. Reanimator decks were always fringe at our cube, which is of the same size, even though we play more pieces. But, I haven't tested the companions thoroughly so you might be right.
I don't know about you but the decks I build on CubeCobra tend to be far better than the decks I get in paper draft - I suspect bot and human drafting patterns are different enough that it's not really representative.
Enclave Cryptologist -> Sea-Dasher Octopus
God-Eternal Kefnet -> Shark Typhoon
Go For the Throat -> Heartless Act
Primeval Titan -> Kogla, the Titan Ape
Garruk Relentless -> Vivien, Monsters' Advocate
Magister of Worth -> Lurrus of the Dream-Den
Deathrite Shaman -> Fiend Artisan
Saheeli, the Gifted -> Lutri, the Spellchaser
Tajic, Legion's Edge -> Zirda, the Dawnwaker
Unexpectedly Absent -> Indatha Triome
Remand -> Raugrin Triome
Summon the Pack -> Zagoth Triome
Through the Breach -> Savai Triome
Plow Under -> Ketria Triome
Dovin, Grand Arbiter -> Yorion, Sky Nomad
Connive // Concoct -> Gyruda, Doom of Depths
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger -> Obosh, the Preypiercer
Mystic Snake -> Keruga, the Macrosage
Jegantha ends up on the outside looking in largely because I couldn't find something I'd cut, but if I opened one, I'd consider making a temporary swap for a non-Dragonlord Atarka card to see if people liked it for enabling wonky multicolor goodstuff decks. Lurrus, Lutri, and Zirda are already in the spoilered list above.
EDIT: I think that a higher-powered cube has enough strong things at various points along the curve that you can generally pass up some things (like odd-CMCs with Gyruda) and still end up with a solid deck. The main issue I might have with so many is that it muddies the signals being sent. If you have Gyruda and you just start passing a lot of blue & black odd-cmc cards but are firmly in that color combo, the people to your left may get tricked into thinking the combo is open (although they do theoretically still have access to half of it)!
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Correct. Having an active companion is broken. So if you can draft one early and make that happen, you should, because the payoff is worth what you're giving up. When drafted later on, Companion can be hard to make work, but fortunately a lot of them are still just playable cards on their own.
The combination of how busted they are as companions and how they're still often playable as cards in your deck is what sells them as good cube cards.
Obviously there's levels of difference between them; Lutri is power/conspiracy-adjacent in powerlevel. Lurrus is at or near the top of his respective colors. The others are competitive, and have varying powerlevels, but they're all good.
I meant the mechanic is what's broken. It's worth trying to unlock that mechanic in order to have access to how powerful it is. The hoops you have to jump through for some of them balances them out a bit.
I was afraid the mechanic was going to be busted. Unfortunately, they're even more busted than I was hoping for. So much so that even the fringe ones are worth building towards.
I'm currently playing all 10 in my cube, and would likely do that at any size for any cube. I'm hoping the entire mechanic gets a conspiracy-esque banning and get relegated to kitchen tables where it belongs. It's a miserable mechanic, IMO, and it's basically ruining every format it's a part of.
Look at constructed right now. I mean, in constructed, every deck that can possibly run Lurrus is willing to pass on every permanent card with a CMC>2 just to have access to it. Players are playing 80-card decks ...in standard and modern... just to have access to Yorion. Ultimately it's worth giving the farm away to get access to the extra card. I thought the mechanic was broken, and it's even better than I thought it would be.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thanks for sounding the alarm on these things. I made the decision not to run them largely because of your explanations. Quick question though: since companion is such a miserable mechanic, why haven't you excluded them from your cube?
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Have all ten seen play as a companion? Do you have examples of such scenarios? I am curious and need convincing
Having decks with 80 cards actually sounds like a selling point to me. This is the type of deck that will never be organically competitive, having a possibility to build a radically different deck that goes against conventions sounds awesome.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
The 60-caard limited deck is harder to pull off than the 80-card constructed deck, but I've seen it in testing already. Bant ETB/goodstuff wound up with enough playables to bbuild a 60-card Yorion deck, and it was pretty sweet. It's also a fine include in the conventional 40-card variants of those same shells if it shows up late.
Keruga is the hardest one to build as a companion in cube, IMO, while still having the deck be competitive. But with some ETBT lands, some cycling cards and a few spells that have 3+cmc and cheaper casting options, it can be playable as a companion. Force of Will/Negation, Dismember, Legionnaire, Snuff Out, etc. The other 9 come together as companions with relative ease when drafted early. Fortunately, it might be the best of the bunch as a non-companion, so it makes up for it. It's just a good creature to put in your deck.
I'll see if I can do a mini-primer with deck examples at some point.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
An early Kaheera deck can actually come together quite consistently.
Example Kaheera: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5eb2bf5533973f103c01857e
Kaheera's gross with manlands and all the green 'walkers that make Beasts and Elementals. Not to mention Brimaz.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
For Umori, I can either leave Fiend Artisan on the outside looking in, or cut one of (Assassin's Trophy, Pernicious Deed, or Vraska, Relic Seeker)
To make room for Kaheera and Jegantha, I think I need to give up on my plans of supporting the persist combo (cutting Grumgully, the Generous and Good-Fortune Unicorn).
The remaining question is whether Hydroid Krasis is better than Nissa, Steward of Elements in our new companion-heavy world. I'm planning to cut Mystic Snake for Keruga, and my other two Simic cards are Edric and Oko. I'd like to get Krasis into the cube in addition to Keruga, but 4 guild slots is tough competition.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
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My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This also gives me something Magic-related to do during this lockdown that isn't just Arena.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I'm thinking about doing this exactly. I'll slot all ten into our Conspiracy package and then just cut back on them once we see how they each play out and how popular they are. I've not yet had the chance to play with them in cube (and unfortunately probably won't get that chance for quite some time), but I definitely look forward to trying them out.
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Companion didn't get banned in Legacy or Vintage.
Gemrazer (in the place of Thrashing Brontodon, since they're both Kaheera-compatible green creatures that can sometimes destroy something)
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy (in place of Edric, Spymaster of Trest - they're similarly-sized creatures, and I'm intrigued by Kinnan's interactions with mana rocks)
Brokkos, Apex of Forever (over Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I was interested in testing him, and this is the only spot he fits in)
I haven't gotten any testing in with them yet, since my drafts this past weekend fell through.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Does anyone have any demonstrable testing showing Lurrus or Companions as a group to be dominating in Cube? They're obviously good if you can meet their condition(s) but that's not quite as trivial as it's proving to be in constructed formats.
What is demonstrable testing? Lutri is the stone cold n*ts.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Keruga, for example, invalidates all 0-2 manacost cards. Sure you can get around this a little with Adventure cards or Evoke cards, but skipping your first two turns of the game seems backbreaking, especially if you're up against a streamlined aggro deck. You also lose out on a lot of good interaction like removal spells and counters and cantrips, which tend to be 1-2 CMC. Keruga itself is entirely bad as a maindeck card too.
Similarly, Umori as a creatures-only deck is very inflexible and while you still have Adventure/Evoke cards to fall back on for interaction, it's very inflexible and you risk being blown out by boardwipes. You don't even get to play Planeswalkers! Umori is an OK curve filler at 4CMC, but very unexciting maindeck.
To be fair, the draft format you play has a big effect on how easy it is to build decks around the restrictions. We play regular booster draft and I think in many cases drafting a deck to satisfy the restrictions will be impossible.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm saying that because you are playing a lot of synergy-decks that revolve around a small group of cards. Reanimator decks were always fringe at our cube, which is of the same size, even though we play more pieces. But, I haven't tested the companions thoroughly so you might be right.
For me it is usually the opposite actually.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022