Hey,
yeah, dependson your cube's powerlevel and a bit on the archetypes,
if you have a powered cube Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is just busted as she forbids any cheating into game stuff like t3 Karn, Liberator and disables cards like Force of Will. She even disrputs any manarock based decks. She is definetly cubable.
Then there is Rhythm of the Wild. Now here it depends on what Gruul looks like in your cube. But i think this is on a higher powerlevel than Fires of Yavimaya because it is firstly more versatile, also costs only 3 mana and blue counter decks are reeking f fear now. But thats not all. If you support +1/+1 counters this card is good synergy. But, man , of you support persist combos this card is just nuts and way better than Vizier of Remedies.
As anorther Gruul card, i deem Cindervines to be awseome in cube especially against aftifact and storm combo decks but also against control. this card is nuts in making those decks getting cold feet.
Next, i think Theater of Horrors is a card that can keep up with Phyrexian Arena. Being able to enhance Hazoret the Fervent while not being at a card disadvantage or havingLiliana of the Veil on board and fearlessly upping her is quite amazing. also Your opponents discard spells no longer hit you full force. On the downside you have to deal damage to cast cards with it. Still, this is a card i will try in vintage cube.
Another card i will test is Teysa Karlov. She might get wild with locks like Yosei, the Morning Star and Recurring Nightmare , but also Wurmcoil Engine or Hangarback Walker . Even Sundering Titan is a great payoff on her first ability. Not just that, having vigilance, lifelink on your tokens can be dope against damage based decks like aggro or burn. Tithe Taker will be tested, as it works like a little thalia, i think its worse overall, but being able to work on fetchlands may be enough to make the cut. Pestilence Spirit will also get a trial run, as it make rakdos burn/Aggro extremely viable. Here it depends on how much you supprt aggresive rakdos decks.
One of the more busted cards for Cube is Electrodominance, Instantspeed damge is ok, for the price as it costs X and deals X. But whats even more nuts is being able to play sorcery speed stuff and instant speed, and if you supprot suspend, this card just turns your suspend nerfed powered cards into powered cards. Turning Ancestral Vision into Ancestral Recall is real power.
Cards that will make trial runs as well from this set are Ravager Wurm. He is very versatile and does create relevant cardadvantage (either a creature threat or a land like Academy Ruins)which is unusual for Gruul. Being only 5/6 for 6 mana at most is a little disapointing, especially for those colors. I mean they did printDoom Whisperer. He will not be able to deal with eldrazi or other standard reanimator targets, so that may be an issue in cube. Bedevil could take Terminate's place.
The last card i deem strong enough (at least for my powered environment) is Rix Maadi Reveler. This cards is just awesome as it helps prevent to getting flooded in aggressive decks. It is also a good value card i you manage to spectacle it with an empty hand. On top of that it is a discard outlet for reanimator or any other crazy graveyard action. I think this will see many cubes, but it has to be tested.
I am actually pretty pleased with this set at a 540 list. While nothing really stands out as an auto include to me, there are plenty of options I want to play with just to spice up the Cube play a little bit without throwing a whole lot of wrenches into the gears.
+ Gutterbones
Just swapping it in over Tormented Hero. The lifeloss has seemed largely inconsequential when I think about how much work it does vs how much work a recursion ability could do instead.
+ Spawn of Mayhem
Efficient black beater, has room to top end aggro. 'Nuff said. Just cutting Thoughtseize. While I like pinpoint hand removal, I like cards that are worthy of mainboard play more, and for this reason a lot of my discard options have been moving towards the back burner for a couple of years now.
+ Biogenic Ooze
Always a fan of cards like Deranged Hermit. While quite different, still similar. Unsure what my cut is for this, probably the copy of Ishkanah, Grafwidow, a card I actually quite love, but I happen to like Ooze playing better for offensive material.
+ Dovin, Grand Arbiter
Bant Swords is often times a thing for us, and Dovin seems quite strong here. I like that he can skyrocket in loyalty and also create additional wielders for equipment. I suspect he will play rather well here. Completely unsure of what to cut though, debating on Venser, the Sojourner, a card with a diminishing home.
+ Bedevil
I run a cube that is pretty heavy in Planeswalkers, so I am willing to try this over Terminate and see how it does. The extra cost in mana seems great for the flexibility you are adding.
HM Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
Face value does not seem to be all that wonderful, but the subversive quality to her is something I think is rather underrated. She seems to play well in Cube, where many decks are trying to play a very unfair game. I think she is another great step in a UW Tax style archetype and I am curious if the critical mass is there for my 540 Cube or not. As I work on fleshing out this concept more, I am eager to find time to see if it works with her as an addition.
HM Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Not an inherently powerful Planeswalker, but I am a huge fan of multicolor cards that do wonky things, and while I have been wanting to scale back on SB worthy cards... I like the idea of also cutting back the power of my BW decks as well. Kaya is a pretty niche choice for me and I actually like that. I feel like the primary reason Cubes have had so many consecutively lackluster sets is that the options are so vast that the real value is going to come from teching out your archetypes and their inherent counter options within the Cube space.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Judith, Scourge Diva --- Really unsure of the cut. Was going to cut Redcap, but since I'm testing Rhythm of the Wilds, which is more redundancy for persist combo, I'll find something else. I'll note that in testing so far, this card has been AMAZING! The fact that it allows 2-power to trade with 4-toughness has been very very key, and the Aristocrats support is some awesome gravy for my cube!
Cards I'm testing and have been good so far:
Rhythm of the Wild --- I've always wanted Fires of Yavimaya to be good enough, but it just wasn't. I'm hoping this has enough additional upside, especially with persist combo support, to get there. I plan on adding a couple more hard-hitters like Wolfir Silverheart to help push the fires strategy. May even add Surrak the Huntcaller for some more big-guys-plus-haste-archetype redundancy.
Prime Speaker Vannifar --- My group *loves* Birthing Pod and Simic is very shallow. It's already seen play over here and overperformed by a HUGE margin. Not requiring mana or life to use made pod chaining with cards like Pestermite and Zealous Conscripts so much easier than I initially realized. Furthermore, it means that your Pod is tutorable off of Wordly Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Imperial Recruiter, and more! While it fails the Vindicate Test, I was impressed and am hoping this gets there. It may even get me to readd Chord of Calling to be able to find Pod on my opponents endstep (basically haste lol).
Cards I'm testing that probably aren't going to be good enough:
Rix Maadi Reveler --- Dismissive Pyromancer has underperformed, and I'm testing this in a mono-red slot for now just to see how it plays. It doesn't seem hard to play a Badland in mono red or any red midrange deck. I don't expect this to get there, but I like the design.
Gutterbones: Cutting Diregraf Ghoul. I may re-add Diregraf Ghoul in the future and go up to 6 one-drops in black, but I'm happy to add another returning 1-drop. Losing a Zombie sucks, but there's still a few for Gravecrawler.
Biogenic Ooze: Cutting Omnath, Locus of Mana. I'm really happy with Green 1s, 2s, and 5+s in my cube. 3s and 4s, not so much. I think cutting a mana sink that wants you to be heavy-green for another mana sink that wants you to be heavy-green is okay even if it raises Green's curve.
Rhythm of the Wild: Cutting Huntmaster of the Fells. Not sure if this will stick, but I like the combo potential here, and I don't think I'm losing too much with this cut.
I think "mistake" is absolutely the incorrect word when talking about someone making a cut to their own cube. Cuts are subjective, and what cut is right for you isn't right for everyone.
The reality is, that at one point, cutting Sensei's Divinig Top was a "mistake". Now look at how far that card has fallen in Cube. Cards like Oath of Druids being included was once considered a "mistake" now look how far it has come... I think you get the point here.
My Cube is modular, and TS was once in the 360 brick, then it was pushed to the 450 brick and then the 540 brick. My play group has stopped playing it in the main for quite some time. We played last night and not a single person disagreed with the removal of it in favor of something more up their alley.
Mistake isn't the word you are looking for.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
There is an implicit design thesis on this forum. We are designing our own limited format with the most iconic and powerful magic cards of all time. You can stray from that thesis, as it's your format, and that's fine... But thoughtseize is one of the most powerful, iconic , cheap cmc black card of all time. The use of the word mistake, is under the assumption you are trying to stick to that thesis.
Thoughtseize is on my short list of cards I'd NEVER cut from cube, and I bet many people here feel the same.
The most likely truth is your playgroup is a group of casual players that aren't well versed in card valuation, if they aren't putting it in the main deck. It literally should never miss a main deck that plays swamps, if they are trying to win.
It's important to cater to your playgroups preference, but maybe if people started realizing how good the card actually is, they would appreciate it more.
There is an implicit design thesis on this forum. We are designing our own limited format with the most iconic and powerful magic cards of all time. You can stray from that thesis, as it's your format, and that's fine... But thoughtseize is one of the most powerful, iconic , cheap cmc black card of all time. The use of the word mistake, is under the assumption you are trying to stick to that thesis.
Thoughtseize is on my short list of cards I'd NEVER cut from cube, and I bet many people here feel the same.
The most likely truth is your playgroup is a group of casual players that aren't well versed in card valuation, if they aren't putting it in the main deck. It literally should never miss a main deck that plays swamps, if they are trying to win.
It's important to cater to your playgroups preference, but maybe if people started realizing how good the card actually is, they would appreciate it more.
I have people in my play group that are multiple PT players. The short of it is, that not everyone is out to spike a Cube format and while this section may have dedicated Cube players, there is a larger majority that has an understanding that Cubes are subjective and that no Cube is equal and the necessity of certain cards is non existent.
Just because a card is good, doesn't mean it is invulnerable to a cut in order to hedge archetypes or nudge the draft procedure.
Thoughtseize is a fantastic card, I never said it wasn't.
I simply said nobody is drafting it for the main anymore. I prefer to keep cards above an abysmal SB rate on my spreadsheet, whenever possible. ANY card in Cube is only as powerful as it can be, when it is played. TS isn't played in my Cube anymore because it just so happens that my players don't seem to be drafting it based on my spreadsheet.
I will also add that peculiar Cube options create problem solving scenarios for drafters.
Can you make this work?
How can you improve upon it?
What went wrong?
What went right?
My players seem to enjoy building around problems seeking solutions, and just because they do so, doesn't mean they are casual players. Coincidentally, most of them are combo players in Constructed formats. I cannot tell you why TS is seeing less play, only that it is and only that my players like wonky decks in Cube that in no way reflect their Constructive play. It is probably why they even play Cube in the first place.
I mean, I don't agree with super's evaluation of Thoughtseizing mainboarding, but cutting a card from a cube shouldn't be like, a sin against the cube covenant. Truth is, what defines the best cards is constantly evolving. If tomorrow everyone's cubes went 90% aggro, gee, maybe we wouldn't want to include the 1-for-1 that loses 2 life and doesn't affect the board state anymore. I'm personally curious whenever somebody says a card that I like just doesn't work for them anymore, because maybe they have made other decisions that define the context which validate or invalidate the decision. We can have our Implicit Logical Cube Design Thesis Doctorate Defense or whatever without immediately leaping at people who stray from the pack.
Why don't we have a thread that talks about Controversial Card Exclusions or something, I bet it would be really cool
I simply said nobody is drafting it for the main anymore.
My players seem to enjoy building around problems seeking solutions, and just because they do so, doesn't mean they are casual players. At least in the context and in relation to your draft format.
If they are skilled at card evaluation , and not main decking thoughtseize, it means that winning is a low priority to these players, even when deck building. That sounds like the definition of casual to me.
But I do agree you should do what you want heh... just don't be surprised if it gets some negative feedback.. there are assumptions that go into suggestions for cube design.. and we have to make those assumptions to some degree to have a productive discussion.
Like when people ask "should I include card X or Y"? It's unreasonable to ask them every single thing about their cube composition and playgroups preference before you answer that question. You have to assume there aren't too many extreme deviations from the accepted norm.
There is an implicit design thesis on this forum. We are designing our own limited format with the most iconic and powerful magic cards of all time.
One strength of this forum is the conformity to this design thesis. It means we can effectively collaborate because we are all generally working to achieve the same thing. I think this forum has had a big impact on cubing and what the average Magic player thinks it is. However, this shared vision also has negatives. I think cube should be "make your own draft format." There are some more original cubes here, but by and large, people here tend to see things in a more narrow way. As I said, that has pluses and minuses, but it's an important context for why one might get push back for suggesting cutting or adding a card.
If a group doesn't want to play Thoughtseize, then who cares? Just because playing powerful cards is part of the "design thesis" of this forum doesn't mean that everyone has to adhere to it. I'm in no danger of cutting that card, but I really can't imagine getting upset and making a few snippy comments about someone else's potential cuts in a cube you don't have to play.
I'll be including Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem. Not sure on cuts yet, but some generic black 1-drop and Gonti are at the top of my list. I'm also planning to cut Rakdos Cackler for Judith and retool a few things in red to push Aristocrats, probably at the expense of Goblin Welder and Daretti.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Thoughtseize is great, but there's no law against cutting it. Play the cards you wanna play. Cut the cards you wanna cut. Just because a card is a small-cube staple doesn't mean it has to be in every cube.
I also fragrantly dismiss the aforementioned thesis, though.
The card isn't worthy of main deck use in my Cube, and there is literally sheets of data on it. It didn't just happen over night, and it didn't just occur at random. That is the beauty of tracking your Cubes drafts over time. My player trends show the card is not worthy of main deck play. In order for it to be worthy of main deck play, people have to play it in the main and my players don't. If they keep pushing it to the board, it is a sideboard Cube by definition. I never implied that that was standard for every Cube.
I never changed anything. You merely perceived additional information as a change in my argument.
You all seem to simply operate on a cookie cutter idea of what Cube is and because of that, you seem to take cuts, and statements that have nothing to do with your cube, personally. So don't charge me with changing my argument simply because you misconstrued what I said.
*EDIT*
I will add, that conversations like this are exactly WHY I don't post my Cube list here for contribution, and why I largely avoid even lurking in this section. It often times is just a large echo chamber with inbred discussion birthed from this so called "Design Thesis". As a Designer by trade, I find it laughable how stagnant and uniform the thought process is here.
But in the end, some of you guys have absolutely brilliant evaluations that I do find quite interesting. So I sometimes just take the good with the bad.
You are free to build your cube however you like. You should probably disregard the criticism around here because it's gone a bit too far. Please remember though that this is the internet, so if you post the unpopular opinion on any site, you will get some backlash. Keep your chin up because myself and others will encourage cube diversity.
Side note: I do however agree that thoughtseize is an auto include with a cube the size of 1 card(s). I do recommend watching a few legacy matches that use the card to persuade you. Bug cascade (I forgot the real name) and junk stoneblade. Best of luck!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Utility Land Cube Owner
Cube Tutor: Here
Utility Lands: Here
You are free to build your cube however you like. You should probably disregard the criticism around here because it's gone a bit too far. Please remember though that this is the internet, so if you post the unpopular opinion on any site, you will get some backlash. Keep your chin up because myself and others will encourage cube diversity.
Side note: I do however agree that thoughtseize is an auto include with a cube the size of 1 card(s). I do recommend watching a few legacy matches that use the card to persuade you. Bug cascade (I forgot the real name) and junk stoneblade. Best of luck!
I played Shardless BUG in Legacy as well as Esper Stoneblade. I also play BUG Midrange in Modern. I main the card in Constructed formats fairly often. The removal has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with what my Cube logs say. I don't like having cards in my Cube that people don't frequently try to work into their main deck. Despise and Thoughtseize have been falling to the SB since 2016 in our drafts. In fact, I am willing to bet that the majority of MB instances in the log are me. But My Cube isn't just for me, if it was - I wouldn't have any includes from this set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
yeah, dependson your cube's powerlevel and a bit on the archetypes,
if you have a powered cube Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is just busted as she forbids any cheating into game stuff like t3 Karn, Liberator and disables cards like Force of Will. She even disrputs any manarock based decks. She is definetly cubable.
Then there is Rhythm of the Wild. Now here it depends on what Gruul looks like in your cube. But i think this is on a higher powerlevel than Fires of Yavimaya because it is firstly more versatile, also costs only 3 mana and blue counter decks are reeking f fear now. But thats not all. If you support +1/+1 counters this card is good synergy. But, man , of you support persist combos this card is just nuts and way better than Vizier of Remedies.
As anorther Gruul card, i deem Cindervines to be awseome in cube especially against aftifact and storm combo decks but also against control. this card is nuts in making those decks getting cold feet.
Next, i think Theater of Horrors is a card that can keep up with Phyrexian Arena. Being able to enhance Hazoret the Fervent while not being at a card disadvantage or havingLiliana of the Veil on board and fearlessly upping her is quite amazing. also Your opponents discard spells no longer hit you full force. On the downside you have to deal damage to cast cards with it. Still, this is a card i will try in vintage cube.
Another card i will test is Teysa Karlov. She might get wild with locks like Yosei, the Morning Star and Recurring Nightmare , but also Wurmcoil Engine or Hangarback Walker . Even Sundering Titan is a great payoff on her first ability. Not just that, having vigilance, lifelink on your tokens can be dope against damage based decks like aggro or burn.
Tithe Taker will be tested, as it works like a little thalia, i think its worse overall, but being able to work on fetchlands may be enough to make the cut.
Pestilence Spirit will also get a trial run, as it make rakdos burn/Aggro extremely viable. Here it depends on how much you supprt aggresive rakdos decks.
One of the more busted cards for Cube is Electrodominance, Instantspeed damge is ok, for the price as it costs X and deals X. But whats even more nuts is being able to play sorcery speed stuff and instant speed, and if you supprot suspend, this card just turns your suspend nerfed powered cards into powered cards. Turning Ancestral Vision into Ancestral Recall is real power.
Cards that will make trial runs as well from this set are Ravager Wurm. He is very versatile and does create relevant cardadvantage (either a creature threat or a land like Academy Ruins)which is unusual for Gruul. Being only 5/6 for 6 mana at most is a little disapointing, especially for those colors. I mean they did printDoom Whisperer. He will not be able to deal with eldrazi or other standard reanimator targets, so that may be an issue in cube.
Bedevil could take Terminate's place.
The last card i deem strong enough (at least for my powered environment) is Rix Maadi Reveler. This cards is just awesome as it helps prevent to getting flooded in aggressive decks. It is also a good value card i you manage to spectacle it with an empty hand. On top of that it is a discard outlet for reanimator or any other crazy graveyard action. I think this will see many cubes, but it has to be tested.
+ Gutterbones
Just swapping it in over Tormented Hero. The lifeloss has seemed largely inconsequential when I think about how much work it does vs how much work a recursion ability could do instead.
+ Spawn of Mayhem
Efficient black beater, has room to top end aggro. 'Nuff said. Just cutting Thoughtseize. While I like pinpoint hand removal, I like cards that are worthy of mainboard play more, and for this reason a lot of my discard options have been moving towards the back burner for a couple of years now.
+ Biogenic Ooze
Always a fan of cards like Deranged Hermit. While quite different, still similar. Unsure what my cut is for this, probably the copy of Ishkanah, Grafwidow, a card I actually quite love, but I happen to like Ooze playing better for offensive material.
+ Dovin, Grand Arbiter
Bant Swords is often times a thing for us, and Dovin seems quite strong here. I like that he can skyrocket in loyalty and also create additional wielders for equipment. I suspect he will play rather well here. Completely unsure of what to cut though, debating on Venser, the Sojourner, a card with a diminishing home.
+ Judith, the Scourge Diva
Always looking to push more BR aggro. Cutting Murderous Redcap for her.
+ Bedevil
I run a cube that is pretty heavy in Planeswalkers, so I am willing to try this over Terminate and see how it does. The extra cost in mana seems great for the flexibility you are adding.
HM Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
Face value does not seem to be all that wonderful, but the subversive quality to her is something I think is rather underrated. She seems to play well in Cube, where many decks are trying to play a very unfair game. I think she is another great step in a UW Tax style archetype and I am curious if the critical mass is there for my 540 Cube or not. As I work on fleshing out this concept more, I am eager to find time to see if it works with her as an addition.
HM Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Not an inherently powerful Planeswalker, but I am a huge fan of multicolor cards that do wonky things, and while I have been wanting to scale back on SB worthy cards... I like the idea of also cutting back the power of my BW decks as well. Kaya is a pretty niche choice for me and I actually like that. I feel like the primary reason Cubes have had so many consecutively lackluster sets is that the options are so vast that the real value is going to come from teching out your archetypes and their inherent counter options within the Cube space.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Gutterbones --- Cutting Tormented Hero.
Spawn of Mayhem --- Cutting Mardu Strike Leader.
Judith, Scourge Diva --- Really unsure of the cut. Was going to cut Redcap, but since I'm testing Rhythm of the Wilds, which is more redundancy for persist combo, I'll find something else. I'll note that in testing so far, this card has been AMAZING! The fact that it allows 2-power to trade with 4-toughness has been very very key, and the Aristocrats support is some awesome gravy for my cube!
Cards I'm testing and have been good so far:
Rhythm of the Wild --- I've always wanted Fires of Yavimaya to be good enough, but it just wasn't. I'm hoping this has enough additional upside, especially with persist combo support, to get there. I plan on adding a couple more hard-hitters like Wolfir Silverheart to help push the fires strategy. May even add Surrak the Huntcaller for some more big-guys-plus-haste-archetype redundancy.
Prime Speaker Vannifar --- My group *loves* Birthing Pod and Simic is very shallow. It's already seen play over here and overperformed by a HUGE margin. Not requiring mana or life to use made pod chaining with cards like Pestermite and Zealous Conscripts so much easier than I initially realized. Furthermore, it means that your Pod is tutorable off of Wordly Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Imperial Recruiter, and more! While it fails the Vindicate Test, I was impressed and am hoping this gets there. It may even get me to readd Chord of Calling to be able to find Pod on my opponents endstep (basically haste lol).
Cards I'm testing that probably aren't going to be good enough:
Rix Maadi Reveler --- Dismissive Pyromancer has underperformed, and I'm testing this in a mono-red slot for now just to see how it plays. It doesn't seem hard to play a Badland in mono red or any red midrange deck. I don't expect this to get there, but I like the design.
Social Media: Twitter, Twitch
MTG Articles: 200+ Articles on StarCityGames.com, MTG Draft AI Article
MTG AI Code: Limited Draft Bot, CubeCobra Recommender System
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I agree with rant regarding Thoughtseize!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Agreed, cutting thoughtseize is definitely a mistake and I would main deck it in every black deck.
Thoughtseize is currently ranked the #9 best black cube card in the 2018 cube tutor rankings, which I think is reasonable.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
Biogenic Ooze: Cutting Omnath, Locus of Mana. I'm really happy with Green 1s, 2s, and 5+s in my cube. 3s and 4s, not so much. I think cutting a mana sink that wants you to be heavy-green for another mana sink that wants you to be heavy-green is okay even if it raises Green's curve.
Rhythm of the Wild: Cutting Huntmaster of the Fells. Not sure if this will stick, but I like the combo potential here, and I don't think I'm losing too much with this cut.
[180 classic cube]
The reality is, that at one point, cutting Sensei's Divinig Top was a "mistake". Now look at how far that card has fallen in Cube. Cards like Oath of Druids being included was once considered a "mistake" now look how far it has come... I think you get the point here.
My Cube is modular, and TS was once in the 360 brick, then it was pushed to the 450 brick and then the 540 brick. My play group has stopped playing it in the main for quite some time. We played last night and not a single person disagreed with the removal of it in favor of something more up their alley.
Mistake isn't the word you are looking for.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Thoughtseize is on my short list of cards I'd NEVER cut from cube, and I bet many people here feel the same.
The most likely truth is your playgroup is a group of casual players that aren't well versed in card valuation, if they aren't putting it in the main deck. It literally should never miss a main deck that plays swamps, if they are trying to win.
It's important to cater to your playgroups preference, but maybe if people started realizing how good the card actually is, they would appreciate it more.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I have people in my play group that are multiple PT players. The short of it is, that not everyone is out to spike a Cube format and while this section may have dedicated Cube players, there is a larger majority that has an understanding that Cubes are subjective and that no Cube is equal and the necessity of certain cards is non existent.
Just because a card is good, doesn't mean it is invulnerable to a cut in order to hedge archetypes or nudge the draft procedure.
Thoughtseize is a fantastic card, I never said it wasn't.
I simply said nobody is drafting it for the main anymore. I prefer to keep cards above an abysmal SB rate on my spreadsheet, whenever possible. ANY card in Cube is only as powerful as it can be, when it is played. TS isn't played in my Cube anymore because it just so happens that my players don't seem to be drafting it based on my spreadsheet.
I will also add that peculiar Cube options create problem solving scenarios for drafters.
My players seem to enjoy building around problems seeking solutions, and just because they do so, doesn't mean they are casual players. Coincidentally, most of them are combo players in Constructed formats. I cannot tell you why TS is seeing less play, only that it is and only that my players like wonky decks in Cube that in no way reflect their Constructive play. It is probably why they even play Cube in the first place.
We digress.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Why don't we have a thread that talks about Controversial Card Exclusions or something, I bet it would be really cool
If they are skilled at card evaluation , and not main decking thoughtseize, it means that winning is a low priority to these players, even when deck building. That sounds like the definition of casual to me.
But I do agree you should do what you want heh... just don't be surprised if it gets some negative feedback.. there are assumptions that go into suggestions for cube design.. and we have to make those assumptions to some degree to have a productive discussion.
Like when people ask "should I include card X or Y"? It's unreasonable to ask them every single thing about their cube composition and playgroups preference before you answer that question. You have to assume there aren't too many extreme deviations from the accepted norm.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
One strength of this forum is the conformity to this design thesis. It means we can effectively collaborate because we are all generally working to achieve the same thing. I think this forum has had a big impact on cubing and what the average Magic player thinks it is. However, this shared vision also has negatives. I think cube should be "make your own draft format." There are some more original cubes here, but by and large, people here tend to see things in a more narrow way. As I said, that has pluses and minuses, but it's an important context for why one might get push back for suggesting cutting or adding a card.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
I'm going to add Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem. I'm taking out Ob Nixilis and something else. Again, looking for advice.
These look like the most natural cuts:
Verdurous Gearhulk or Kalonian Hydra out for Ooze
Ob Nixilis Reignited out for Spawn
Diregraf Ghoul out for Gutterbones
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I think for gutter bones you should probably cut thoughtseize and for spawn of mayhem cut a second copy of thoughtseize for good measure.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'll be including Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem. Not sure on cuts yet, but some generic black 1-drop and Gonti are at the top of my list. I'm also planning to cut Rakdos Cackler for Judith and retool a few things in red to push Aristocrats, probably at the expense of Goblin Welder and Daretti.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I also fragrantly dismiss the aforementioned thesis, though.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
thoughtsieze is absolutely worthy of being mainboarded. so there was outrage lol
Later he changes his argument that he is removing thoughtseize because people in his playgroup dont like it.
this is an argument that you can't disagree with. it might be surprising to you. but you cant argue against it.
The card isn't worthy of main deck use in my Cube, and there is literally sheets of data on it. It didn't just happen over night, and it didn't just occur at random. That is the beauty of tracking your Cubes drafts over time. My player trends show the card is not worthy of main deck play. In order for it to be worthy of main deck play, people have to play it in the main and my players don't. If they keep pushing it to the board, it is a sideboard Cube by definition. I never implied that that was standard for every Cube.
I never changed anything. You merely perceived additional information as a change in my argument.
You all seem to simply operate on a cookie cutter idea of what Cube is and because of that, you seem to take cuts, and statements that have nothing to do with your cube, personally. So don't charge me with changing my argument simply because you misconstrued what I said.
*EDIT*
I will add, that conversations like this are exactly WHY I don't post my Cube list here for contribution, and why I largely avoid even lurking in this section. It often times is just a large echo chamber with inbred discussion birthed from this so called "Design Thesis". As a Designer by trade, I find it laughable how stagnant and uniform the thought process is here.
But in the end, some of you guys have absolutely brilliant evaluations that I do find quite interesting. So I sometimes just take the good with the bad.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Side note: I do however agree that thoughtseize is an auto include with a cube the size of 1 card(s). I do recommend watching a few legacy matches that use the card to persuade you. Bug cascade (I forgot the real name) and junk stoneblade. Best of luck!
Cube Tutor: Here
Utility Lands: Here
I played Shardless BUG in Legacy as well as Esper Stoneblade. I also play BUG Midrange in Modern. I main the card in Constructed formats fairly often. The removal has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with what my Cube logs say. I don't like having cards in my Cube that people don't frequently try to work into their main deck. Despise and Thoughtseize have been falling to the SB since 2016 in our drafts. In fact, I am willing to bet that the majority of MB instances in the log are me. But My Cube isn't just for me, if it was - I wouldn't have any includes from this set.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm