Doesn't have the same "win the game no matter what if you have 4 creatures on the board" kind of oomf that craterhoof does, but it's certainly close..
It's much better by itself or with 1 other creature. IE I could see playing it in a creature light/medium reanimator deck where I wouldnt play craterhoof.
Saturation at 8 CMC in green is a thing tho.. Probably an auto include in huge cubes, and a debate/personal preference for 720-, is my initial impression.
End-Raze Forerunners is better in multiplayer cubes due to providing vigilance for your team. But even in 1vs1, it's less risky to go all in with this, compared to Craterhoof Behemoth.
This card is most likely cheaper than Craterhoof Behemoth, for people who still need a big green finisher on a budget.
But in the end, I guess Craterhoof Behemoth is still stronger. Even 1 creature on the board together with Craterhoof Behemoth provides +2/+2 and trample with the etb trigger. 3 1/1 token and Craterhoof Behemoth provide 24 power on attack, while with End-Raze Forerunners your team just has 16 power, a significant downgrade.
I really like how this is a lot better than Hoof in scenarios where Hoof can’t just win on the spot. That being said, this needs A LOT more critical mass than Hoof for the instant-win. Hoof can make 1/1 elves into 5/5 tramples where Boar can only make them into 3/3s. I do think this is the next best green super fattie after Woodfall Primus / Hornet Queen / Craterhoof / Terastodon, just not sure if I need it. Will put this on my maybe list.
I've got 4 big green creatures right now: Hornet Queen, Craterhoof Behemoth, Woodfall Primus, and Terastodon. That's a lot of big fatties at 390ish, but we like them and cheat lots of creatures into play.
I might like this better than Terastodon, although I love that card because it's secretly skill-testing. But this goes well into any green deck, Oath, Sneak & Show, reanimator, etc. Plus it's sort of a backup Craterhoof, which is cool.
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I'm not currently running Hoof. (Not because I don't like him. He's just a bit pricey, especially in foil.) I'm running Avenger of Zendikar and we've had some success with him. This is probably a better Craterhoof place holder than Avenger. I might make that swap.
I think I actually like this more than Hoof for cube.
Hoof is only good in Gx creature ramp while this will provide the same effect for those decks while also being playable in other fatty decks like Reanimator or Sneak and Show. I haven't decided yet, but will consider making the swap.
As someone looking for ways to further support token decks, I like this guy. Decimator by comparison loses some synergies due to it being a colorless creature, but maybe this could work out. And, getting vigilance here is kinda neat. Instead of just being a purely alpha-strike card, you can give a heavy swing to put an opponent on the back foot when in other circumstances that might have opened you up to a worse crack-back.
I think I actually like this more than Hoof for cube.
Hoof is only good in Gx creature ramp while this will provide the same effect for those decks while also being playable in other fatty decks like Reanimator or Sneak and Show. I haven't decided yet, but will consider making the swap.
I actually like that Hoof is narrow. To me, green creature decks need a Tinker-type super powerful, narrow card that likely wins the game on the spot. I can see not having that perspective, and then I think this is a fine compromise.
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I'm not currently running Hoof. (Not because I don't like him. He's just a bit pricey, especially in foil.) I'm running Avenger of Zendikar and we've had some success with him. This is probably a better Craterhoof place holder than Avenger. I might make that swap.
Thinking of that swap too. I like redundancy for Craterhoof in a large cube (720), but I still have a slight fear the powerlevel is too low due to a weaker game-ending capacity.
I think I actually like this more than Hoof for cube.
Hoof is only good in Gx creature ramp while this will provide the same effect for those decks while also being playable in other fatty decks like Reanimator or Sneak and Show. I haven't decided yet, but will consider making the swap.
While this is more versatile than Hoof, I think this is going to be very low in my hierarchy of super fatties to play in cheaty face. Craterhoof is narrow in the sense that you need critical mass for it, but it's VERY GOOD at doing that one thing where this is kinda mediocre at both things.
I'm not currently running Hoof. (Not because I don't like him. He's just a bit pricey, especially in foil.) I'm running Avenger of Zendikar and we've had some success with him. This is probably a better Craterhoof place holder than Avenger. I might make that swap.
Thinking of that swap too. I like redundancy for Craterhoof in a large cube (720), but I still have a slight fear the powerlevel is too low due to a weaker game-ending capacity.
I have that fear too, but hopefully I can ease that fear with some smooth logic
Generally the games that hoof barely wins, is when you have like 1-3 creatures on the battlefield. In those contexts this will only do a few points of damage less. And that's offset (a bit) by the games end-raze wins that craterhoof can't.
Of the set of all craterhoof end games, quite a large portion of them , is overkill by like 9+ points of damage.. so a large portion of those, End-Raze would end the game too.. the games that it doesn't win on the spot that craterhoof would, you will win the game the next turn a high % of the time.
It's hard to recall the times that I decided not to natural order for craterhoof because it would be too low impact early in the game... and was forced to get like a carnage tyrant instead. This guy ends the game fasssssssttt by itself AND can block , which will be relevant when natural ordering against red agro...
But I agree, overall, a reduction in win the game when cast % by even 10% is a pretty big deal
Most green decks probably don't want 2 craterhoof's in the same deck... though they reallly want one.
Worth a test @ 720 imo.. 95% of a craterhoof is still a busted finisher!
Love this card. Works as a Hoof variant for decks Hoof would be good in, but it's also good on its own or with 1-2 other creatures, making it a good card in decks that won't even play Craterhoof. In fact, this becomes quite good as a reanimation target in decks that use creature-based discard outlets as enablers. Those decks won't even play the Hoof Daddy, but would be really interested in a creature like this. I'm in.
Interesting discussion, group. My initial reaction to Forerunners was that it was a worse Craterhoof and therefore uncubeable. But Craterhoof is a premium card with a premium effect. These pigs won't deal as much damage but the vigilance will allow you to get aggressive what Hoof can't. I might test this but is a fourth 8cmc green card necessary?
Hoof > Primus > Terastodon
Where do you think Forerunners fit? It's nice that those three 8 drops all have completely different effects.
Where do you think Forerunners fit? It's nice that those three 8 drops all have completely different effects.
That's exactly where I'm at. For me it would have to replace Createrhoof, since it's so similar in function. I'll never replace Terastodon because it's such a versatile card, I don't care if it's strictly less powerful than the other cards. Variance in creature utility and thus strategy > Power level for me.
That being said, I'll be keeping Craterhoof. This seems like a great budget alternative though that effectively fills the same role.
If you even have one other creature in play, Craterhoof swings for the same net damage as this card.
2 creatures besides craterhoof: 3 extra damage over this
3 creatures besides craterhoof: 8 extra damage over this
4 creatures besides craterhoof: 15 extra damage over this
5 creatures besides craterhoof: 24 extra damage over this
If you even have one other creature in play, Craterhoof swings for the same net damage as this card.
2 creatures besides craterhoof: 3 extra damage over this
3 creatures besides craterhoof: 8 extra damage over this
4 creatures besides craterhoof: 15 extra damage over this
5 creatures besides craterhoof: 24 extra damage over this
It adds up fast.
I'd say the overall consensus is Hoof >>> Boar due to sheer power alone.
Yeah I like this card a lot, and think green could use another effect like this. But saturation at high cmc is a thing. Terastodon is much better in cheat decks, same with Primus. If I were to cut a card, it would be Hornet Queen, but I like Hornet Queen a lot.
Maybe if I was at like 540, but unless it tests really well I can't see including it.
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For 8 mana you really want to either win immediately or turn things around against problematic dominant board positions.
Primus and Terastodon I value so highly because they can get rid of problematic planeswalkers and permanents, which is huge.
Killing that Karn Literated is a big game.
Craterhoof wins on the spot most of the time.
Incidentally, green ramp is really happy when they have the GSZ and Natural Order package and both Craterhoof and one of Primus/Terastadon.
I think it's a rare board where I'd GSZ/Order out a Hornet Queen or End-Raze Forerunners over the others.
- Big trampler that deals with problematic permanents with persist. Probably the most versatile super fattie overall.
Hornet Queen
- Cheaper than the 8 mana options and is the best defensive creature in cube. Having 6 power split over 5 deathtouch flyers means Hornet Queen is difficult to answer without a sweeper. Hornet Queen alongside Deranged Hermit are probably two of the most common ways to just win instantly with Craterhoof Behemoth. Hornet Queen has the most synergies being a 2-powered creature for Reviellark / Recruiters and gives plenty of fodder for Skullclamp / Recurring Nightmare.
Craterhoof Behemoth
- Craterhoof is really strong, but it's the most narrow of the commonly green super fatties. Has no value outside of green decks with dudes that ramp.
Terastodon
- Terastodon can be hit or miss, IMO. Lack of trample really hurts and the more things you destroy of your opponent, the more chump blockers they get to stall the Terastodon. He's also prone to blowouts if they end up removing him and you gave them 2-3 elephants. I'm actually not too big a fan of rushing out Terastodon early, but he's clutch late game where he can really clean up multiple problematic permanents. If my cube were smaller, Terastodon would be the first super fattie to be cut.
While not an absolute data set, it's worth mentioning that the 3-0 archives also paints a similar picture to how I rank the green super fatties:
In the same boat as everyone else, except that I'd want to play this before Terastodon personally. I cut Terastodon a while back and haven't looked back. I didn't like having both Terastodon and Woodfall Primus side-by-side, and the lack of trample plus the chump blockers generated just didn't do it for me. Also being incentivized to destroy your own stuff resulted in it getting less play than the others.
Craterhoof's brother has finally been discovered.
Doesn't have the same "win the game no matter what if you have 4 creatures on the board" kind of oomf that craterhoof does, but it's certainly close..
It's much better by itself or with 1 other creature. IE I could see playing it in a creature light/medium reanimator deck where I wouldnt play craterhoof.
Saturation at 8 CMC in green is a thing tho.. Probably an auto include in huge cubes, and a debate/personal preference for 720-, is my initial impression.
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This card is most likely cheaper than Craterhoof Behemoth, for people who still need a big green finisher on a budget.
But in the end, I guess Craterhoof Behemoth is still stronger. Even 1 creature on the board together with Craterhoof Behemoth provides +2/+2 and trample with the etb trigger. 3 1/1 token and Craterhoof Behemoth provide 24 power on attack, while with End-Raze Forerunners your team just has 16 power, a significant downgrade.
I really like how this is a lot better than Hoof in scenarios where Hoof can’t just win on the spot. That being said, this needs A LOT more critical mass than Hoof for the instant-win. Hoof can make 1/1 elves into 5/5 tramples where Boar can only make them into 3/3s. I do think this is the next best green super fattie after Woodfall Primus / Hornet Queen / Craterhoof / Terastodon, just not sure if I need it. Will put this on my maybe list.
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As is, I'm not sure I need two Behemoth effects.
I might like this better than Terastodon, although I love that card because it's secretly skill-testing. But this goes well into any green deck, Oath, Sneak & Show, reanimator, etc. Plus it's sort of a backup Craterhoof, which is cool.
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Hoof is only good in Gx creature ramp while this will provide the same effect for those decks while also being playable in other fatty decks like Reanimator or Sneak and Show. I haven't decided yet, but will consider making the swap.
I don't think I have room, but, maybe.
I actually like that Hoof is narrow. To me, green creature decks need a Tinker-type super powerful, narrow card that likely wins the game on the spot. I can see not having that perspective, and then I think this is a fine compromise.
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Thinking of that swap too. I like redundancy for Craterhoof in a large cube (720), but I still have a slight fear the powerlevel is too low due to a weaker game-ending capacity.
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While this is more versatile than Hoof, I think this is going to be very low in my hierarchy of super fatties to play in cheaty face. Craterhoof is narrow in the sense that you need critical mass for it, but it's VERY GOOD at doing that one thing where this is kinda mediocre at both things.
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I have that fear too, but hopefully I can ease that fear with some smooth logic
Generally the games that hoof barely wins, is when you have like 1-3 creatures on the battlefield. In those contexts this will only do a few points of damage less. And that's offset (a bit) by the games end-raze wins that craterhoof can't.
Of the set of all craterhoof end games, quite a large portion of them , is overkill by like 9+ points of damage.. so a large portion of those, End-Raze would end the game too.. the games that it doesn't win on the spot that craterhoof would, you will win the game the next turn a high % of the time.
It's hard to recall the times that I decided not to natural order for craterhoof because it would be too low impact early in the game... and was forced to get like a carnage tyrant instead. This guy ends the game fasssssssttt by itself AND can block , which will be relevant when natural ordering against red agro...
But I agree, overall, a reduction in win the game when cast % by even 10% is a pretty big deal
Most green decks probably don't want 2 craterhoof's in the same deck... though they reallly want one.
Worth a test @ 720 imo.. 95% of a craterhoof is still a busted finisher!
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Hoof > Primus > Terastodon
Where do you think Forerunners fit? It's nice that those three 8 drops all have completely different effects.
That's exactly where I'm at. For me it would have to replace Createrhoof, since it's so similar in function. I'll never replace Terastodon because it's such a versatile card, I don't care if it's strictly less powerful than the other cards. Variance in creature utility and thus strategy > Power level for me.
That being said, I'll be keeping Craterhoof. This seems like a great budget alternative though that effectively fills the same role.
Carterhoof buffs itself, while this does not.
If you even have one other creature in play, Craterhoof swings for the same net damage as this card.
2 creatures besides craterhoof: 3 extra damage over this
3 creatures besides craterhoof: 8 extra damage over this
4 creatures besides craterhoof: 15 extra damage over this
5 creatures besides craterhoof: 24 extra damage over this
It adds up fast.
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IMO, current ranking of green super fatties (7-cmc and above)
Woodfall Primus > Hornet Queen > Craterhoof Behemoth > Terastodon > End-Raze Forerunners
I'd say the overall consensus is Hoof >>> Boar due to sheer power alone.
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Maybe if I was at like 540, but unless it tests really well I can't see including it.
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It's splitting hairs but personally I'd probably go
Woodfall Primus > Craterhoof Behemoth > Terastodon > Hornet Queen > End-Raze Forerunners
For 8 mana you really want to either win immediately or turn things around against problematic dominant board positions.
Primus and Terastodon I value so highly because they can get rid of problematic planeswalkers and permanents, which is huge.
Killing that Karn Literated is a big game.
Craterhoof wins on the spot most of the time.
Incidentally, green ramp is really happy when they have the GSZ and Natural Order package and both Craterhoof and one of Primus/Terastadon.
I think it's a rare board where I'd GSZ/Order out a Hornet Queen or End-Raze Forerunners over the others.
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I'm always down for splitting hairs.
Woodfall Primus
- Big trampler that deals with problematic permanents with persist. Probably the most versatile super fattie overall.
Hornet Queen
- Cheaper than the 8 mana options and is the best defensive creature in cube. Having 6 power split over 5 deathtouch flyers means Hornet Queen is difficult to answer without a sweeper. Hornet Queen alongside Deranged Hermit are probably two of the most common ways to just win instantly with Craterhoof Behemoth. Hornet Queen has the most synergies being a 2-powered creature for Reviellark / Recruiters and gives plenty of fodder for Skullclamp / Recurring Nightmare.
Craterhoof Behemoth
- Craterhoof is really strong, but it's the most narrow of the commonly green super fatties. Has no value outside of green decks with dudes that ramp.
Terastodon
- Terastodon can be hit or miss, IMO. Lack of trample really hurts and the more things you destroy of your opponent, the more chump blockers they get to stall the Terastodon. He's also prone to blowouts if they end up removing him and you gave them 2-3 elephants. I'm actually not too big a fan of rushing out Terastodon early, but he's clutch late game where he can really clean up multiple problematic permanents. If my cube were smaller, Terastodon would be the first super fattie to be cut.
While not an absolute data set, it's worth mentioning that the 3-0 archives also paints a similar picture to how I rank the green super fatties:
- Woodfall Primus 26
- Hornet Queen 19
- Craterhoof Behemoth 15
- Terastodon 7
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