I think this card will play worse than it looks, just as all the beefy black flyers do, but it's still good enough. Will probably cut Strike Leader.
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Would you consider this card a 3-drop or a 4-drop for categorisation?
Or more specific: do you think it will be played for 3 mana or for 4 mana most of the time?
I'm going to try to find room at 450, but I think it may just miss the cut at that size cube. Impressive creature though. I hope it works out. I love everything about this card.
Would you consider this card a 3-drop or a 4-drop for categorisation?
Or more specific: do you think it will be played for 3 mana or for 4 mana most of the time?
We would rank it as a 4-drop. Spectacle is just an upside.
In aggro decks you are going to be casting this for 3 more than half the time I feel like. I don't think it matters all that much if you cut a 4 drop or a 3 drop, just pick your worst creature among those two spots and slam this guy in. Black 3s are better than black 4s for the most part so for me it's probably going to be a 4 drop.
I don't think this card looks good, it seems to easy for your opponents to make it a 4/4 for 4, which is not what I want to be casting in aggro. The card is just too slow imo.
I don't think this card looks good, it seems to easy for your opponents to make it a 4/4 for 4, which is not what I want to be casting in aggro. The card is just too slow imo.
Don't forget the flying and trample tacked onto it. A 4/4 flying trample for 4 is much different from the same stats on a vanilla dude. Not only that, but it's virtually a 5/4 flying trample since it pings for one each turn.
The way you beat aggro is by preventing them from dealing you combat damage, so the fact that if your opponent does their job of not losing the game, the card is a 4 mana 4/4 with evasion for 4 (which is a terrible cube card) like a third of the time.
Card might be good, but I doubt it. Hope I'm wrong though and it ends up letting me switch some cards up.
I don't think this card is way over powered or anything, but I do think you're underrating it by quite a large margin. 1BB 4/4 flying trample is a pretty sweet aggro card. If your opponent is on some super control deck that's just stopping your aggro deck from dealing any damage at all, this will either get you above the curve or you weren't winning anyway.
if your opponent does their job of not losing the game, the card is a 4 mana 4/4 with evasion for 4 (which is a terrible cube card) like a third of the time.
But, I mean, it's not just that. It is, at the floor, a 4cmc 4/4 with TWO types of evasion (Vindicate Test requirements end here, but the fourth toughness makes a difference) that pings all players at your upkeep and grows larger (with Trample stapled on it) if you're low on life. Also, it costs 3 mana in the deck it wants to be in! I agree, this isn't god's gift to black aggro, but it's not only arguably cube-able, in my opinion it'd be a high pick in the aggressive and mid-range black archetypes.
In addition, I think there are plenty of control strategies that wouldn't prioritize stopping early damage from a 1 or 2 drop in the event their opponent MIGHT get a 1 mana discount on their next, more powerful threat. Part of setting up against an aggro cube deck as a control deck is taking early licks and letting them over-extend so you can 3 or 4 for 1 them with a sweeper or the like. I'm actually trying to think of a successful typical case scenario where control is expending resources stopping all damage turns 1-3 and thinking that's a good idea in the long run.
I agree but only because I think most black decks that draft it should cut it if they don't look to play it on turn 3. I fear it is a little narrow and will only be slightly better than Master of the Feast etc.
What deck playing this card wouldn't assume you'd be attacking by T3? It'd be like playing Stormblood Berserker in a creatureless control deck and then claiming the card is bad.
..........
If the opponent is doing their job of ...not losing the game... you'd better just pack it in and concede I guess.
And calling the failsafe mode a 4/4 for 4 is such a disingenuous and incomplete evaluation. It has two forms of evasion, direct damage/reach that makes it hit more like a 5-power 4-drop with double-evasion ...and it grows itself in the later stages of the game too.
But that's largely moot, because this will cost 3 mana far more often than it costs 4 anyways.
And don't forget that there's value in casting this as a 3-mana creature even beyond T3. It can be nice on T5/6 to be able to double-spell with this once you've enabled the discount again. Oh, and it's not just attacking either; you can burn the opponent and then cast it as a 3-drop too.
Would like to point out that spectacle cost is activated by any form of life loss on your opponents life total. If they crack a fetch to cast a Lightning Bolt to kill your attacker, they still lost life and you can still get your discount.
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The way you beat aggro is by preventing them from dealing you combat damage, so the fact that if your opponent does their job of not losing the game, the card is a 4 mana 4/4 with evasion for 4 (which is a terrible cube card) like a third of the time.
Card might be good, but I doubt it. Hope I'm wrong though and it ends up letting me switch some cards up.
I disagree with this.
As a control or combo player facing aggro you tend to view your life as a resource.
You are happy to trade off some early life to aggro beaters if that allows you to gain card advantage, dig deeper in your deck, find permanent solutions and stabilize.
When the clock becomes this fast, however, that is more challenging.
Aggressive black threes still kinda suck beyond [[Flesh Carver]] (which is still doing absolutely amazing for us and is leagues better than this card), but I'm still not inclined to play this card at 360, and if I moved up to 450 I doubt this would make the cut. It offers no disruption, just flying stats for not much above the curve. If you're looking for aggressive flyers to try to beat control, play [[Kitesail Freebooter]], because that card is actually great.
This card will probably be castable for 3 like two-thirds of the time, which just isn't enough, and a 4/4 with evasion in aggro for 4 is absolutely not good enough. This card is just too slow and inconsistent imo. I guess we'll only find out with time though.
The problem with Kitesail Freebooter (not saying it's a bad card), but trying to beat down with kitesail would take 20 turns unless you get equipment etc.
I have played a fair amount of games as aggro where I missed the last 1-2 damage to win against control/mid-range and the board got estabilized. 4/4 flying trample causing 1 damage each turn could have done the job. I think the mini-vortex makes a difference and it's being disconsidered.
I think this card is great and am very excited to play it.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
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The problem with Kitesail Freebooter (not saying it's a bad card), but trying to beat down with kitesail would take 20 turns unless you get equipment etc.
Yes, but it carries equipment, deals a few extra points of damage, and actually offers disruption for cheap. Freebooter can even be tutored vs combo off of certain creature tutors if necessary which is sweet.
This card is only playable in aggro and doesn't even seem to shine there. I doubt that this could even fit into half of all black midrange decks because many of them are in colors pairs that don't grant the early aggression necessary to get this guy down. This guy is just a pile of stats for an aggro deck that cares less about stats and more about hand and mana disruption than any other color. I'm having serious trouble imagining this being worth it.
The problem with Kitesail Freebooter (not saying it's a bad card), but trying to beat down with kitesail would take 20 turns unless you get equipment etc.
Yes, but it carries equipment, deals a few extra points of damage, and actually offers disruption for cheap. Freebooter can even be tutored vs combo off of certain creature tutors if necessary which is sweet.
This card is only playable in aggro and doesn't even seem to shine there. I doubt that this could even fit into half of all black midrange decks because many of them are in colors pairs that don't grant the early aggression necessary to get this guy down. This guy is just a pile of stats for an aggro deck that cares less about stats and more about hand and mana disruption than any other color. I'm having serious trouble imagining this being worth it.
Being only playable in aggro is all this has to be, especially since black really lacks a cheap beefy stat monster, and this so happens to have flying / trample / pseudo Vortex attached. If you support black aggro, this should be a very strong consideration.
Which is fair, because I don't think anyone is saying this is a 360 cube card.
But I think your evaluation of how it'll perform in aggro is pretty off. If you're playing a medium-sized cube and support aggressive black decks, this should be a good creature for you.
A pseudo 5-power 3-drop with 3 redundant levels of evasion is good. And it'll be that most of the time. And a failsafe of a 4-mana curve-topper that's a 5-power creature with triple evasion is just fine. And it can grow itself in size too, which is not just flavor text; the +1/+1 counters will matter.
Even if you ignored the Spectacle, this is the best Juzam variant the cube has seen. And that's its backup mode...
The problem with Kitesail Freebooter (not saying it's a bad card), but trying to beat down with kitesail would take 20 turns unless you get equipment etc.
Yes, but it carries equipment, deals a few extra points of damage, and actually offers disruption for cheap. Freebooter can even be tutored vs combo off of certain creature tutors if necessary which is sweet.
This card is only playable in aggro and doesn't even seem to shine there. I doubt that this could even fit into half of all black midrange decks because many of them are in colors pairs that don't grant the early aggression necessary to get this guy down. This guy is just a pile of stats for an aggro deck that cares less about stats and more about hand and mana disruption than any other color. I'm having serious trouble imagining this being worth it.
Black is the color that I think varies most from cube to cube in terms of what it's trying to do. Some cubes are high on the 2-power 1-drops, others like the MTGO cubes and Justin Parnell's SCG cube have cut all of those and are more about disrupting turns 1 and 2, then playing good 3s and 4s, or comboing out instead of beating down. Looking at your list, I see you've subscribed more to that strategy. I think in that style of cube, Spawn of Mayhem looks terrible. If you don't go 1-drop into 2-drop, a Wall of Omens or Spellskite will shutdown Spectacle, and when your 2-drops are things like Dark Confidant and Kitesail Freebooter, your opponent is incentivized to use removal on that 2-drop, which also blanks Spectacle. When you can't rely on Spectacle, you're much better off playing Gonti or Kalitas.
I think in a cube with the black 1-drops, Spawn of Mayhem looks okay. Not great, but possibly better than Mardu Strike Leader or whatever the weakest black 3-drop is in the list. I think it looks more like a lateral change than an upgrade to anything I'm currently running, so I'm not planning on adding it right away, but I will be interested in seeing how it plays for others.
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Or more specific: do you think it will be played for 3 mana or for 4 mana most of the time?
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We would rank it as a 4-drop. Spectacle is just an upside.
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Don't forget the flying and trample tacked onto it. A 4/4 flying trample for 4 is much different from the same stats on a vanilla dude. Not only that, but it's virtually a 5/4 flying trample since it pings for one each turn.
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Card might be good, but I doubt it. Hope I'm wrong though and it ends up letting me switch some cards up.
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But, I mean, it's not just that. It is, at the floor, a 4cmc 4/4 with TWO types of evasion (Vindicate Test requirements end here, but the fourth toughness makes a difference) that pings all players at your upkeep and grows larger (with Trample stapled on it) if you're low on life. Also, it costs 3 mana in the deck it wants to be in! I agree, this isn't god's gift to black aggro, but it's not only arguably cube-able, in my opinion it'd be a high pick in the aggressive and mid-range black archetypes.
In addition, I think there are plenty of control strategies that wouldn't prioritize stopping early damage from a 1 or 2 drop in the event their opponent MIGHT get a 1 mana discount on their next, more powerful threat. Part of setting up against an aggro cube deck as a control deck is taking early licks and letting them over-extend so you can 3 or 4 for 1 them with a sweeper or the like. I'm actually trying to think of a successful typical case scenario where control is expending resources stopping all damage turns 1-3 and thinking that's a good idea in the long run.
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What deck playing this card wouldn't assume you'd be attacking by T3? It'd be like playing Stormblood Berserker in a creatureless control deck and then claiming the card is bad.
..........
If the opponent is doing their job of ...not losing the game... you'd better just pack it in and concede I guess.
And calling the failsafe mode a 4/4 for 4 is such a disingenuous and incomplete evaluation. It has two forms of evasion, direct damage/reach that makes it hit more like a 5-power 4-drop with double-evasion ...and it grows itself in the later stages of the game too.
But that's largely moot, because this will cost 3 mana far more often than it costs 4 anyways.
And don't forget that there's value in casting this as a 3-mana creature even beyond T3. It can be nice on T5/6 to be able to double-spell with this once you've enabled the discount again. Oh, and it's not just attacking either; you can burn the opponent and then cast it as a 3-drop too.
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540> 360 Powered CubeI disagree with this.
As a control or combo player facing aggro you tend to view your life as a resource.
You are happy to trade off some early life to aggro beaters if that allows you to gain card advantage, dig deeper in your deck, find permanent solutions and stabilize.
When the clock becomes this fast, however, that is more challenging.
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This card will probably be castable for 3 like two-thirds of the time, which just isn't enough, and a 4/4 with evasion in aggro for 4 is absolutely not good enough. This card is just too slow and inconsistent imo. I guess we'll only find out with time though.
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Yes, but it carries equipment, deals a few extra points of damage, and actually offers disruption for cheap. Freebooter can even be tutored vs combo off of certain creature tutors if necessary which is sweet.
This card is only playable in aggro and doesn't even seem to shine there. I doubt that this could even fit into half of all black midrange decks because many of them are in colors pairs that don't grant the early aggression necessary to get this guy down. This guy is just a pile of stats for an aggro deck that cares less about stats and more about hand and mana disruption than any other color. I'm having serious trouble imagining this being worth it.
Being only playable in aggro is all this has to be, especially since black really lacks a cheap beefy stat monster, and this so happens to have flying / trample / pseudo Vortex attached. If you support black aggro, this should be a very strong consideration.
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Which is fair, because I don't think anyone is saying this is a 360 cube card.
But I think your evaluation of how it'll perform in aggro is pretty off. If you're playing a medium-sized cube and support aggressive black decks, this should be a good creature for you.
A pseudo 5-power 3-drop with 3 redundant levels of evasion is good. And it'll be that most of the time. And a failsafe of a 4-mana curve-topper that's a 5-power creature with triple evasion is just fine. And it can grow itself in size too, which is not just flavor text; the +1/+1 counters will matter.
Even if you ignored the Spectacle, this is the best Juzam variant the cube has seen. And that's its backup mode...
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Black is the color that I think varies most from cube to cube in terms of what it's trying to do. Some cubes are high on the 2-power 1-drops, others like the MTGO cubes and Justin Parnell's SCG cube have cut all of those and are more about disrupting turns 1 and 2, then playing good 3s and 4s, or comboing out instead of beating down. Looking at your list, I see you've subscribed more to that strategy. I think in that style of cube, Spawn of Mayhem looks terrible. If you don't go 1-drop into 2-drop, a Wall of Omens or Spellskite will shutdown Spectacle, and when your 2-drops are things like Dark Confidant and Kitesail Freebooter, your opponent is incentivized to use removal on that 2-drop, which also blanks Spectacle. When you can't rely on Spectacle, you're much better off playing Gonti or Kalitas.
I think in a cube with the black 1-drops, Spawn of Mayhem looks okay. Not great, but possibly better than Mardu Strike Leader or whatever the weakest black 3-drop is in the list. I think it looks more like a lateral change than an upgrade to anything I'm currently running, so I'm not planning on adding it right away, but I will be interested in seeing how it plays for others.
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