Browbeat has been underperforming in most of my attempts of cube drafts. I don't have high hopes for this one, although it seems to bit better than Browbeat.
It has a neat synergy with the spellslinger decktype, granting value with cards like Young Pyromancer or Guttersnipe by jump starting with a discarded land and due to the instant speed.
It's amazing the lengths Wizards is going to try and make punisher cards playable. First demanding dragon, now this.
Generally, punisher cards are a trap. Almost always. That being said, this is a VERY pushed punisher card. They take 4 the first time almost always. What happens when you pitch a land late game though? Do they take 4 again? Let you draw 3? Both are pretty bad the 2nd time around, and pitching a land for it is VERY low cost.
I think I will actually test this, but expect to be disappointed.
As an aggro curve topper I think I like insult// injury more. It gets in the same 4 damage but also takes out a creature and will often kill your opponent on the spot. This will never finish the job. Punisher mechanics are just too punishing in Cube.
Nothing quite like a terrible card that encourages you to turn your other cards into that more copies of that terrible card
Jokes aside, you have to be pretty all-in on the burn plan for this to properly function. The idea of this being a virtual “draw 6, discard one of your useless lands” is cute, but by the time your sligh deck has cast and Jump-started this your opponent will have likely stabilized the board, rendering a bunch of the weenies you’ll be drawing useless anyway. And if your early aggression is stymied, this won’t put you back in the driver’s seat the way other aggro top-end is capable of. Still, this is exactly the kind of rate that will win a few games and trick people into thinking this is the Browbeat they’re looking for instead of the situational nonsense it actually is.
I think that this card is actually pretty tough to evaluate. I’ll start out by saying that while punisher effects have historically been bad, there’s no reason that one can’t be good if both effects are objectively powerful enough. There’s a knee-jerk reaction of experienced magic players to think “it’s a punisher effect, it’s bad”, while it could actually pull some weight. I’m not saying the card is good or even cubeable, but I think it warrants a bit more discussion than it’s getting.
Most punisher cards are bad because one mode is bad at almost all points in the game. Take Browbeat for example - dealing 5 to your opponent is bad when you want to commit to the board early, and 3 cards are bad late when you’d rather it be any regular burn spell.
But most cube decks can not afford to take 8 against aggressive decks (8 is much more than 5 in this context) or give their red aggro opponent 6 cards. This statement is true at way more points in the game than it is for Browbeat. People make connections to Browbeat, which is a terrible cube card, but what if Browbeat had retrace? An exaggerated example to be sure, but it demonstrates that the jump start on this card goes a long way. Repeated castings magnify the pressure immensely, even if you don’t get what you want on each cast. We’d never Cube Browbeat if it was just “2R, deal 5”, but we’d snap cube this card if it was “2R, deal 4, jumpstart”, which just demonstrates how much better it really is.
This card is as exclusively aggro as Sulfuric Vortex. As Fireman pointed out, it functions best in burn heavy decks. I’ll be testing it, and while in the end I’m not sure it will get there, I think it represents a really interesting design space for wizards and I’m glad they’re exploring it.
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
I think that this card is actually pretty tough to evaluate. I’ll start out by saying that while punisher effects have historically been bad, there’s no reason that one can’t be good if both effects are objectively powerful enough.
That's the whole argument behind every other punisher card though. Having flash and jump-start doesn't hide the fact that this card is literally Browbeat. Sorcery speed / lack of flashback wasn't Browbeat's problem, it was giving your opponent a choice.
This card is as exclusively aggro as Sulfuric Vortex.
Nothing wrong with being exclusive as long as the payoff is there. Exquisite Firecraft does 4 damage to any target without having to jump through any hoops, and Flame Rift deals 4 damage straight to the face at a much more efficient rate.
I mean at some point punisher cards are good enough, while I don’t believe this one is I’d love to hear testing from people who try it out, as I believe flashback on browbeat makes the card extremely better. Vexing devil is still a cubeable punisher care imo, so I don’t think it’s imposssible for punishers to be good.
It's bad because
a) It's a burn only card, which makes it very narrow.
b) mono 1 drops -> effecient burn isn't really supported in cube, which means you will be drawing some creatures when you draw cards off the browbeat. Even in burn heavy cube decks there's still a bunch of creatures and the CMC avg is probably between 2 and 3. Sure this card would be great in a deck with like 4 lightning bolts, 4 chain lightning 4 fireblast etc since drawing 6 of these cards is absurd and can win the game in short order. But that's not the quality of red cards you'll be drawing on average.
Even if you cast it and flash it back, you are probably drawing a couple 2 mana burn spells, lands, 3 drop creatures, 2 drop creatures etc..This means a lot of time and mana... Sinking 6 mana into the browbeat, all while doing ZERO damage.. Then still have to spend the mana to cast the other spells.... all of which the other decks are happy to give you to stabilize and draw their haymakers.
That's the whole argument behind every other punisher card though. Having flash and jump-start doesn't hide the fact that this card is literally Browbeat. Sorcery speed / lack of flashback wasn't Browbeat's problem, it was giving your opponent a choice.
Yes, but the argument is more true for this card than it is for this Browbeat. Does that make it true? Maybe not. But just because it gives your opponent a choice does not make it a bad card - it’s that at least one of Browbeat’s options is bad at almost all points in the game. The same is true for an individual cast of Risk factor, of course, but for the reasons I mentioned making that choice twice in a row is much worse than once for your opponent.
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
I think for 6 mana and giving my opponent a choice I prefer combustible gearhulk. But I always wonder if /when they push one of these punisher cards too far
I feel this is around the level of Vexing Devil, maybe a little worse. Which means it probably doesn't make the cut for most cubes, but might slot into certain constructed burn decks.
I think for 6 mana and giving my opponent a choice I prefer combustible gearhulk. But I always wonder if /when they push one of these punisher cards too far
1R
Draw 7 cards unless an opponent has this card deal 10 damage to them
I feel like that's what it would take to get people to try a browbeat variant
I think for 6 mana and giving my opponent a choice I prefer combustible gearhulk. But I always wonder if /when they push one of these punisher cards too far
Ehh, gearhulk is all 6 mana at once and will average well less than 8 damage.
If my red pool was dedicated aggro and just wanted more haste creatures and burn, this card would fit. But, a lot of our spells and creatures 3 cmc+ are geared to play a wide range of roles, so even the aggro decks aren't suicidal when going for the red zone. Not enough of our decks will be hoping to draw Lightning Strikes to make this card a good choice and warrant it a spot.
It's amazing the lengths Wizards is going to try and make punisher cards playable.
They should be pushing them, good cards that give the opposing player a "pick your poison" type scenario are super fun to play. I thought you guys loved Fact or Fiction!
Just because a certain card type has been bad in the past doesn't mean they will always be bad. Here's to hoping we get some more playable combat tricks and creature auras in the future (Both of which have been consistently bad in the past).
With all that being said, this card still doesn't make the cut, which is unfortunate. Maybe some day we can cube a punisher card. But not today.
It's amazing the lengths Wizards is going to try and make punisher cards playable.
They should be pushing them, good cards that give the opposing player a "pick your poison" type scenario are super fun to play. I thought you guys loved Fact or Fiction!
Just because a certain card type has been bad in the past doesn't mean they will always be bad. Here's to hoping we get some more playable combat tricks and creature auras in the future (Both of which have been consistently bad in the past).
With all that being said, this card still doesn't make the cut, which is unfortunate. Maybe some day we can cube a punisher card. But not today.
Fact or Fiction works because the caster has the final say. Notice how quickly Steam Augury has fallen out of favor around here.
Vexing Devil is probably the most pushed actual punisher card. This one could probably cost one mana too.
have a feeling that one day wizards is gonna print a punisher card that both modes are so good, it's still great even if opponent choses the worst option for you.. This is not that day
More specifically, it works because you're in control of the type of effect. If you wanna draw cards at instant speed, you're gonna draw cards at instant speed. You announce the spell with a specific objective in mind, and no matter what happens, you accomplish that objective.
For example, a 1RG spell that let the opponent choose between you getting 4 1/1 goblins or 2 2/2 bears wouldn't really be a choice, because you're getting 4 power worth of creatures every time you cast it.
That's not the case with these kinds of punisher cards. When you need to draw cards, they'll take the damage. When you need to deal them damage, you'll get cards. Despite both outcomes being good for you, you need to be in control of the type of the effect in order for it to be worth including in your deck. Historically, they've all been bad, and I have absolutely no reason to think this will be any different.
My comparison to Fact or Fiction was garbage I now realize, due to the fact that I omitted to think about the fact that the caster makes the final decision. Thus it isn't a fair comparison at all to make here.
I would still like to see more cards that give the opponent a choice in the future, it's a design space that hasn't really been pushed enough to make anything see play in a 60 card deck. I still think the "bad mechanic has been bad, thus will always be bad" is not a healthy way to look at potentially interesting mechanics or card types, but I suppose this cynic mindset has validity for the near future power level of these cards. I'm not trying to hype up this particular card either, it's as clear as day that this card is absolute garbage, I wouldn't play it at 1000+. But SOME DAY I'd like to be able play a card like this in a cube setting.
Risk Factor
2R - Instant
Target opponent may have Risk Factor deal 4 damage to them. If that player doesn't, you draw three cards.
Jump-start (You may cast this card from your graveyard by discarding a card in addition to paying its other costs. Then exile this card.)
-----------------------------------------------
Does Browbeat sound better to you as an instant with pseudo-flashback?
I could see this being okay in red aggro, where you want to discard lands anyway, but...browbeat is still bad.
Here's my cube! Give it a draft!
It has a neat synergy with the spellslinger decktype, granting value with cards like Young Pyromancer or Guttersnipe by jump starting with a discarded land and due to the instant speed.
Generally, punisher cards are a trap. Almost always. That being said, this is a VERY pushed punisher card. They take 4 the first time almost always. What happens when you pitch a land late game though? Do they take 4 again? Let you draw 3? Both are pretty bad the 2nd time around, and pitching a land for it is VERY low cost.
I think I will actually test this, but expect to be disappointed.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Meh, not really, no.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Jokes aside, you have to be pretty all-in on the burn plan for this to properly function. The idea of this being a virtual “draw 6, discard one of your useless lands” is cute, but by the time your sligh deck has cast and Jump-started this your opponent will have likely stabilized the board, rendering a bunch of the weenies you’ll be drawing useless anyway. And if your early aggression is stymied, this won’t put you back in the driver’s seat the way other aggro top-end is capable of. Still, this is exactly the kind of rate that will win a few games and trick people into thinking this is the Browbeat they’re looking for instead of the situational nonsense it actually is.
Cubetutor Link
Most punisher cards are bad because one mode is bad at almost all points in the game. Take Browbeat for example - dealing 5 to your opponent is bad when you want to commit to the board early, and 3 cards are bad late when you’d rather it be any regular burn spell.
But most cube decks can not afford to take 8 against aggressive decks (8 is much more than 5 in this context) or give their red aggro opponent 6 cards. This statement is true at way more points in the game than it is for Browbeat. People make connections to Browbeat, which is a terrible cube card, but what if Browbeat had retrace? An exaggerated example to be sure, but it demonstrates that the jump start on this card goes a long way. Repeated castings magnify the pressure immensely, even if you don’t get what you want on each cast. We’d never Cube Browbeat if it was just “2R, deal 5”, but we’d snap cube this card if it was “2R, deal 4, jumpstart”, which just demonstrates how much better it really is.
This card is as exclusively aggro as Sulfuric Vortex. As Fireman pointed out, it functions best in burn heavy decks. I’ll be testing it, and while in the end I’m not sure it will get there, I think it represents a really interesting design space for wizards and I’m glad they’re exploring it.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
That's the whole argument behind every other punisher card though. Having flash and jump-start doesn't hide the fact that this card is literally Browbeat. Sorcery speed / lack of flashback wasn't Browbeat's problem, it was giving your opponent a choice.
Nothing wrong with being exclusive as long as the payoff is there. Exquisite Firecraft does 4 damage to any target without having to jump through any hoops, and Flame Rift deals 4 damage straight to the face at a much more efficient rate.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
a) It's a burn only card, which makes it very narrow.
b) mono 1 drops -> effecient burn isn't really supported in cube, which means you will be drawing some creatures when you draw cards off the browbeat. Even in burn heavy cube decks there's still a bunch of creatures and the CMC avg is probably between 2 and 3. Sure this card would be great in a deck with like 4 lightning bolts, 4 chain lightning 4 fireblast etc since drawing 6 of these cards is absurd and can win the game in short order. But that's not the quality of red cards you'll be drawing on average.
Even if you cast it and flash it back, you are probably drawing a couple 2 mana burn spells, lands, 3 drop creatures, 2 drop creatures etc..This means a lot of time and mana... Sinking 6 mana into the browbeat, all while doing ZERO damage.. Then still have to spend the mana to cast the other spells.... all of which the other decks are happy to give you to stabilize and draw their haymakers.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Yes, but the argument is more true for this card than it is for this Browbeat. Does that make it true? Maybe not. But just because it gives your opponent a choice does not make it a bad card - it’s that at least one of Browbeat’s options is bad at almost all points in the game. The same is true for an individual cast of Risk factor, of course, but for the reasons I mentioned making that choice twice in a row is much worse than once for your opponent.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
1R
Draw 7 cards unless an opponent has this card deal 10 damage to them
I feel like that's what it would take to get people to try a browbeat variant
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Ehh, gearhulk is all 6 mana at once and will average well less than 8 damage.
Of course, it's also a 6/6 first strike =X
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
They should be pushing them, good cards that give the opposing player a "pick your poison" type scenario are super fun to play. I thought you guys loved Fact or Fiction!
Just because a certain card type has been bad in the past doesn't mean they will always be bad. Here's to hoping we get some more playable combat tricks and creature auras in the future (Both of which have been consistently bad in the past).
With all that being said, this card still doesn't make the cut, which is unfortunate. Maybe some day we can cube a punisher card. But not today.
Fact or Fiction works because the caster has the final say. Notice how quickly Steam Augury has fallen out of favor around here.
Vexing Devil is probably the most pushed actual punisher card. This one could probably cost one mana too.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
For example, a 1RG spell that let the opponent choose between you getting 4 1/1 goblins or 2 2/2 bears wouldn't really be a choice, because you're getting 4 power worth of creatures every time you cast it.
That's not the case with these kinds of punisher cards. When you need to draw cards, they'll take the damage. When you need to deal them damage, you'll get cards. Despite both outcomes being good for you, you need to be in control of the type of the effect in order for it to be worth including in your deck. Historically, they've all been bad, and I have absolutely no reason to think this will be any different.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I would still like to see more cards that give the opponent a choice in the future, it's a design space that hasn't really been pushed enough to make anything see play in a 60 card deck. I still think the "bad mechanic has been bad, thus will always be bad" is not a healthy way to look at potentially interesting mechanics or card types, but I suppose this cynic mindset has validity for the near future power level of these cards. I'm not trying to hype up this particular card either, it's as clear as day that this card is absolute garbage, I wouldn't play it at 1000+. But SOME DAY I'd like to be able play a card like this in a cube setting.
Here's to hoping.