While there has already been a large amount of debate on coveted UB spots in smaller cubes, this newly-spoiled card also merits a bit of discussion. The front half serves as a more expensive, but "better" Preordain that can be played in any black-based deck due to the hybrid nature of the spell, which is GREAT. This is a fantastic tool for reanimator decks as they can possibly get more than a cantrip worth of value from the spell, and it can simply add additional consistency and synergies to most other strategies. The second half is admittedly less exciting as a more expensive Recoil that might not hit the target you want OR hit lands. That said, it can hit hexproof/shroud permanents, which is something certainly worth noting.
The closest we will get to Preordain and also in mono black AND also throw the cards into the graveyard instead of the bottom! I love it and I belive it would be the second card in the ranking of the Dimir. The first is Baleful Strix but this might just be the second best. I am excited to slam it into my cube.
If you're calling this a black card isn't Night's Whisper just better. I'm not a fan of the Dispersal side because you don't get to choose your target and that's way too risky in a format with so many great etb effects.
I like this spell. Could be worth testing for medium-large sized cube managers with flexible classification systems.. Owners who categorize versatile hybrids separately from guild cards.
This is the first hybrid card from the set, where I think its a legitimate (albeit bottom-tier) playable in decks based in either colour that can't cast the second mode of the card.
My estimation:
As a strictly dimir card, on power level, it falls short of the top 6-7 competition.. but it makes up for that in versatility and flexibility. I'm reasonably confident this is good enough in a mono black reanimator deck... with only casting the front side. A single U/B dual be enough to get a noteable bit of extra value out of it too.
Maybe a non-black combo deck, all in on inconsistent combo spells like eureka/showNtell , would pay an extra mana for preordain.
It's a playable in U/B control deck with ways to take advantage of the cantrip, like thing in the ice, delve spells... U/B control can make the best use of dispersal. While dispersal is by far the worst part of the card, is still a powerful option to have.
Discovery//Dispersal is at it's best in U/B reanimator with a control element.
Don't think I'm gonna test it, but I may change my mind.
The effect of “Surveil 2, Draw a Card” seems roughly comparable to Strategic Planning. That bodes well for this card’s playability, considering how much more upside it has. The second half of the card isn’t a great rate, but it’s enough of a card to make me respect it, especially considering how well it works with Torrential Gearhulk. I guess my big issue is that while I can foresee myself playing this in a mono-black or mono-blue deck, I’d still be unhappy about it. Which makes me want to evaluate this as a pure Dimir card, and it doesn’t get there on raw power level. But I have played nonblue reanimator decks where this would have been a welcome if unexciting addition.
I’m going to try this in peasant and think this is quite playable in larger Dimir sections, especially ones that support reanimator.
Discovery ain’t bad, but it’s not better than other existing options like Chart a Course / Strategic Planning / Night’s Whisper. Dismissal is pretty bad... I definitely like the other Dimir split card more, would’ve been cool to pair Discovert with Concoct.
Discovery at sorcery speed compares REAL badly to the various instant speed options U gets. I ain't even playin anticipate, and this is no anticipate.
Then, sure, it can be in a black deck, but I'm also not playing nights whisper, or read the bones, or various other black draw spells that are probably better than this.
Which brings us back to this card's flexibility needing to be good enough to get it in, and now we're back to it having to be a dimir card, where all the U draw spells laugh at it.
This seems like an easy pass to me. Each half of this card is too expensive to be made up for by the versatility. You can't even pick what to bounce if there's a tie or you need to bounce a small flier or die!
Discovery ain’t bad, but it’s not better than other existing options like Chart a Course / Strategic Planning / Night’s Whisper. Dismissal is pretty bad... I definitely like the other Dimir split card more, would’ve been cool to pair Discovert with Concoct.
Oh god this.
I wouldn't play the front half this card if it was printed as a mono-black card. Not really close, actually. And I don't think a BAD Recoil makes up for that fact. I have no interest in this card.
Discovery at sorcery speed compares REAL badly to the various instant speed options U gets. I ain't even playin anticipate, and this is no anticipate.
Then, sure, it can be in a black deck, but I'm also not playing nights whisper, or read the bones, or various other black draw spells that are probably better than this.
Which brings us back to this card's flexibility needing to be good enough to get it in, and now we're back to it having to be a dimir card, where all the U draw spells laugh at it.
There's a significant difference between a card that doesn't deserve a slot in your final cube list and a card that isn't powerful enough to make main decks... If a card that costs 1B doesn't deserve a slot on power level, that doesn't mean the same card that costs 2 colorless mana (or in this case U OR B) wouldn't be... Due to versatility advantages. Same goes for cards that cost 1U instead of UU, or 1RR instead of RRR. Though, those examples are more extreme.
Not confident that this card necessarily meets that minimum power level..... I'm writing this because I am not a fan of the argument that seems common ((Discovery is worse than B or U cards im not playing + It's worse than all Dimir cards I'm playing) -> Not good enough for my cube))
I have no interest in cubing night's whisper, but there's plenty of black decks in my cube that would happily play it... There's all sorts of cheap blue and black cantrips, selection spells, discard spells, draw spells, counter spells and removal spells printed throughout history that would meet this criteria.
Despite being a serviceable playable in one archetype, they might be unplayable in other archetypes in that color.. and are not better enough in the archetype that wants them, than simply including a solid card meant for another archetype.
An easy example; Red and Volcanic hammer. There's no mono red agro deck I'd rather have Pia & Kiran nalaar than volcanic hammer. Yet Pia & Kiran make a surprisingly high amount of my Mono-R decks (10-20%)... volcanic hammer is not better enough than Pia & Kiran, to make up for not being played outside of MonoR. While Volcanic hammer "isn't good enough for my cube" I'd definitely include a 2 colorless casting cost volcanic hammer, that is a split card with RBGWU deal 6 damage... This card is a servicable playable for ALL agro archtypes and also has a random upside in a very rare deck...
The less color demanding the card, the more I'd want to play a card that falls in that category.
Without considering your own personal guild classification restrictions, there exists a theoretical card that is worse than your worst 1B card, worse than the worst 1U card, that could still deserve a slot due it's versatility of a cheap playable in either color and a reasonable playable when combined in UB.
Without considering your own personal guild classification restrictions, there exists a theoretical card that is worse than your worst 1B card, worse than the worst 1U card, that could still deserve a slot due it's versatility of a cheap playable in either color and a reasonable playable when combined in UB.
....Then it's just a dimir card. If it's only this theoretically super easy to cast card in one color combo, then it's a that color combo card. This card isn't 2 colorless volcanic hammer. This card is OVERCOSTED for the effect. It's a 2 colorless preordain in dimir, and that's it's best case. And it's not 2 colorless - it's hybrid dimir. I can't play this in my red white deck, that might actually want an effect like this at this cost.
I'm kind of confused by this argument tbh - this isn't some theoretical card that gives either color access to something it doesn't have. If you had a 1w/r volcanic hammer, well, now we're talking cause that gives white access to something it can't normally do (I don't know if I'd actually cube that card, but it's still a better card than this one).
Plus, the whole POINT of cube is that we set up arbitrary numbers for sections and fill in those sections. I'm not opposed to putting cards outside of their commander color identity. I put Rakdos Cackler in red, cause most black decks don't want it. I put Dryad Militant in white for the same reason. Metamorph is classed as colorless, cause lots of decks are happy to play it for 2 life.
But this card has to go in one of three sections - Dimir, U, or B. It doesn't go in any of those sections. Further, there may exist some theoretical card that would make me change my mind, but this isn't it. I can't imaging a card that wouldn't make it in either color of its hybrid symbols, but is good enough anyway. The only examples I can think of are cards that give a color something it doesn't normally have access to, which would just mean it would go in that color. I'm curious if you can come up with an example of this theoretical card.
Discovery at sorcery speed compares REAL badly to the various instant speed options U gets. I ain't even playin anticipate, and this is no anticipate.
Then, sure, it can be in a black deck, but I'm also not playing nights whisper, or read the bones, or various other black draw spells that are probably better than this.
Which brings us back to this card's flexibility needing to be good enough to get it in, and now we're back to it having to be a dimir card, where all the U draw spells laugh at it. It’s okay for a split card to be below par as long as it has options.
There's a significant difference between a card that doesn't deserve a slot in your final cube list and a card that isn't powerful enough to make main decks... If a card that costs 1B doesn't deserve a slot on power level, that doesn't mean the same card that costs 2 colorless mana (or in this case U OR B) wouldn't be... Due to versatility advantages. Same goes for cards that cost 1U instead of UU, or 1RR instead of RRR. Though, those examples are more extreme.
Not confident that this card necessarily meets that minimum power level..... I'm writing this because I am not a fan of the argument that seems common ((Discovery is worse than B or U cards im not playing + It's worse than all Dimir cards I'm playing) -> Not good enough for my cube))
I have no interest in cubing night's whisper, but there's plenty of black decks in my cube that would happily play it... There's all sorts of cheap blue and black cantrips, selection spells, discard spells, draw spells, counter spells and removal spells printed throughout history that would meet this criteria.
Despite being a serviceable playable in one archetype, they might be unplayable in other archetypes in that color.. and are not better enough in the archetype that wants them, than simply including a solid card meant for another archetype.
An easy example; Red and Volcanic hammer. There's no mono red agro deck I'd rather have Pia & Kiran nalaar than volcanic hammer. Yet Pia & Kiran make a surprisingly high amount of my Mono-R decks (10-20%)... volcanic hammer is not better enough than Pia & Kiran, to make up for not being played outside of MonoR. While Volcanic hammer "isn't good enough for my cube" I'd definitely include a 2 colorless casting cost volcanic hammer, that is a split card with RBGWU deal 6 damage... This card is a servicable playable for ALL agro archtypes and also has a random upside in a very rare deck...
The less color demanding the card, the more I'd want to play a card that falls in that category.
Without considering your own personal guild classification restrictions, there exists a theoretical card that is worse than your worst 1B card, worse than the worst 1U card, that could still deserve a slot due it's versatility of a cheap playable in either color and a reasonable playable when combined in UB.
The issue with this card isn’t the Discovery half and its parallels to other 2-cmc cantrips, the issue is the other half is complete garbage.
Without considering your own personal guild classification restrictions, there exists a theoretical card that is worse than your worst 1B card, worse than the worst 1U card, that could still deserve a slot due it's versatility of a cheap playable in either color and a reasonable playable when combined in UB.
But this card has to go in one of three sections - Dimir, U, or B. It doesn't go in any of those sections. Further, there may exist some theoretical card that would make me change my mind, but this isn't it. I can't imaging a card that wouldn't make it in either color of its hybrid symbols, but is good enough anyway. The only examples I can think of are cards that give a color something it doesn't normally have access to, which would just mean it would go in that color. I'm curious if you can come up with an example of this theoretical card.
I'm operating under the assumption that a very small sacrifice in power level, for a significant boost in versatility on a low tier card, is worth it.... assuming that this new theoretical card is still powerful enough to make a variety of main decks. (IE refer to the volcanic hammer example). Because it is more versatile, it will make more main decks, despite being less powerful, than cards that you decided aren't good enough for your cube and are similar in function.
Making more main decks could be the kicker between it's inclusion to your cube and bumping out the worst card in your black section.
This paragraph told me you do understand what I was trying to get at.. The colorless volcanic hammer example was an extreme example, but it was not a perfect analogy because there are additional advantages of being colorless that a hybrid card doesn't have. The point was to emphasize the value of archetype versatility to a cards cubeability..., and one way it can go into more archetypes is by being castable by multiple colors. Imagine that theoretical volcanic hammer was 1(mardu hybrid) mana instead of 2... and imagine there existed some beyond broken mardu card in your cube, that your classification system gave you room for only 1 of.
"But this card has to go in one of three sections - Dimir, U, or B." is an example of your classification system..
If you believe cards of that quality would have to be classified as dimir (since it's at it's best in dimir by a noteable amount, and will see more play in dimir decks than other black or blue decks) and you must only have X number of dimir cards, that's your system... But hopefully you are aware that you are intentionally sacrificing the potential of a better cube card (under the first assumption I started this post with), for the advantages that come with having stricter classification.
[quote from="LucidVision »" url="/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/798665-grn-cube-discovery-dispersal?comment=12"][quote from="asmallcat »" url="/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/798665-grn-cube-discovery-dispersal?comment=10"] The issue with this card isn’t the Discovery half and its parallels to other 2-cmc cantrips, the issue is the other half is complete garbage.
My point was addressing a pattern of reasoning in the thread I didn't like, maybe a bit abstract for a thread about a magic card.
Regarding the point you say, I disagree it's complete garbage.. I'd agree VERY strongly if it was a standalone card, but I think it's a solid option to have attached to a cheap split card that is good on it's own..
If I were to play a split card with say boreal druid and another creature, I'd much rather it be a 7 mana 4/5 reach, than a split card with a 2 mana 2/2 elf that tapped for G/R. 2/2 elf for 2 is a way better card than a 7 mana 4/5 reach, but because the base mode is so similar and a better rate, i'd rather have an overcosted expensive card that occasionally has a much higher upside.
I could see me using the dispersal mode maybe 5% as often as discovery, but the rare time when it's good, it can be really good.. Anticipate can't single handedly answer an emrakul!
There's gotta be a noteable amount of value for a selection spell having a ceiling like that, even if it's rare. You always have the floor of a selection spell available...
I have to say... I really appreciate your abstract thinking on this card LucidVision.
I have a larger (720 card), unpowered cube that, I'd say, has larger guild sections than usual. Even with that however, there is no way I'd cut a "Dimir" card for this; I already have tons of "Dimir" cards on the bench that I want to add but can't find room for. Still... my cube can't get enough cantrips like Preordain - even bad ones. Additionally, I, like some others, classify hybrid cards like Rakdos Cackler as "red" and Kitchen Finks as "green" to 1.) not take away a precious guild slot and 2.) because that's how these cards play. I've also classified a card like Life // Death as "black" before, completely disregarding the Life side of the card - though it would occasionally get used.
So what to do with this? I guess the answer for me is... just don't get too anal about the numbers and find room for Discovery // Dispersal if you want it. Whether you cut a black card for it, a blue card for it, a colorless card, whatever...
I'd give that advice to any cuber, knowing full well that this particular card isn't powerful enough for most. One day though we may get a Discovery // Dispersal with the colorless mana knocked off the Discovery side, but by then the actual "Dimir" section may be an insane power level, so difficult choices might have to be made regarding some of the more rigid classification systems used. To each his own though.
I agree with Lucid about classification. Basically we treat hybrids as a separate section that has no limits, and the colored sections are capped based on how many hybrids they have access to (this is why our blue section is 3 cards larger than our green section for instance).
Having mulled over Discovery though - I do think it should have cost 1 generic mana less to be cubeable and the card did not make it in our GRN update, unfortunately. That would make it VERY cubeable though.
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
Cube Tutor: Here
Utility Lands: Here
This is the first hybrid card from the set, where I think its a legitimate (albeit bottom-tier) playable in decks based in either colour that can't cast the second mode of the card.
My estimation:
As a strictly dimir card, on power level, it falls short of the top 6-7 competition.. but it makes up for that in versatility and flexibility. I'm reasonably confident this is good enough in a mono black reanimator deck... with only casting the front side. A single U/B dual be enough to get a noteable bit of extra value out of it too.
Maybe a non-black combo deck, all in on inconsistent combo spells like eureka/showNtell , would pay an extra mana for preordain.
It's a playable in U/B control deck with ways to take advantage of the cantrip, like thing in the ice, delve spells... U/B control can make the best use of dispersal. While dispersal is by far the worst part of the card, is still a powerful option to have.
Discovery//Dispersal is at it's best in U/B reanimator with a control element.
Don't think I'm gonna test it, but I may change my mind.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I’m going to try this in peasant and think this is quite playable in larger Dimir sections, especially ones that support reanimator.
Cubetutor Link
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Then, sure, it can be in a black deck, but I'm also not playing nights whisper, or read the bones, or various other black draw spells that are probably better than this.
Which brings us back to this card's flexibility needing to be good enough to get it in, and now we're back to it having to be a dimir card, where all the U draw spells laugh at it.
This seems like an easy pass to me. Each half of this card is too expensive to be made up for by the versatility. You can't even pick what to bounce if there's a tie or you need to bounce a small flier or die!
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Oh god this.
I wouldn't play the front half this card if it was printed as a mono-black card. Not really close, actually. And I don't think a BAD Recoil makes up for that fact. I have no interest in this card.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There's a significant difference between a card that doesn't deserve a slot in your final cube list and a card that isn't powerful enough to make main decks... If a card that costs 1B doesn't deserve a slot on power level, that doesn't mean the same card that costs 2 colorless mana (or in this case U OR B) wouldn't be... Due to versatility advantages. Same goes for cards that cost 1U instead of UU, or 1RR instead of RRR. Though, those examples are more extreme.
Not confident that this card necessarily meets that minimum power level..... I'm writing this because I am not a fan of the argument that seems common ((Discovery is worse than B or U cards im not playing + It's worse than all Dimir cards I'm playing) -> Not good enough for my cube))
I have no interest in cubing night's whisper, but there's plenty of black decks in my cube that would happily play it... There's all sorts of cheap blue and black cantrips, selection spells, discard spells, draw spells, counter spells and removal spells printed throughout history that would meet this criteria.
Despite being a serviceable playable in one archetype, they might be unplayable in other archetypes in that color.. and are not better enough in the archetype that wants them, than simply including a solid card meant for another archetype.
An easy example; Red and Volcanic hammer. There's no mono red agro deck I'd rather have Pia & Kiran nalaar than volcanic hammer. Yet Pia & Kiran make a surprisingly high amount of my Mono-R decks (10-20%)... volcanic hammer is not better enough than Pia & Kiran, to make up for not being played outside of MonoR. While Volcanic hammer "isn't good enough for my cube" I'd definitely include a 2 colorless casting cost volcanic hammer, that is a split card with RBGWU deal 6 damage... This card is a servicable playable for ALL agro archtypes and also has a random upside in a very rare deck...
The less color demanding the card, the more I'd want to play a card that falls in that category.
Without considering your own personal guild classification restrictions, there exists a theoretical card that is worse than your worst 1B card, worse than the worst 1U card, that could still deserve a slot due it's versatility of a cheap playable in either color and a reasonable playable when combined in UB.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
....Then it's just a dimir card. If it's only this theoretically super easy to cast card in one color combo, then it's a that color combo card. This card isn't 2 colorless volcanic hammer. This card is OVERCOSTED for the effect. It's a 2 colorless preordain in dimir, and that's it's best case. And it's not 2 colorless - it's hybrid dimir. I can't play this in my red white deck, that might actually want an effect like this at this cost.
I'm kind of confused by this argument tbh - this isn't some theoretical card that gives either color access to something it doesn't have. If you had a 1w/r volcanic hammer, well, now we're talking cause that gives white access to something it can't normally do (I don't know if I'd actually cube that card, but it's still a better card than this one).
Plus, the whole POINT of cube is that we set up arbitrary numbers for sections and fill in those sections. I'm not opposed to putting cards outside of their commander color identity. I put Rakdos Cackler in red, cause most black decks don't want it. I put Dryad Militant in white for the same reason. Metamorph is classed as colorless, cause lots of decks are happy to play it for 2 life.
But this card has to go in one of three sections - Dimir, U, or B. It doesn't go in any of those sections. Further, there may exist some theoretical card that would make me change my mind, but this isn't it. I can't imaging a card that wouldn't make it in either color of its hybrid symbols, but is good enough anyway. The only examples I can think of are cards that give a color something it doesn't normally have access to, which would just mean it would go in that color. I'm curious if you can come up with an example of this theoretical card.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
The issue with this card isn’t the Discovery half and its parallels to other 2-cmc cantrips, the issue is the other half is complete garbage.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I'm operating under the assumption that a very small sacrifice in power level, for a significant boost in versatility on a low tier card, is worth it.... assuming that this new theoretical card is still powerful enough to make a variety of main decks. (IE refer to the volcanic hammer example). Because it is more versatile, it will make more main decks, despite being less powerful, than cards that you decided aren't good enough for your cube and are similar in function.
Making more main decks could be the kicker between it's inclusion to your cube and bumping out the worst card in your black section.
This paragraph told me you do understand what I was trying to get at.. The colorless volcanic hammer example was an extreme example, but it was not a perfect analogy because there are additional advantages of being colorless that a hybrid card doesn't have. The point was to emphasize the value of archetype versatility to a cards cubeability..., and one way it can go into more archetypes is by being castable by multiple colors. Imagine that theoretical volcanic hammer was 1(mardu hybrid) mana instead of 2... and imagine there existed some beyond broken mardu card in your cube, that your classification system gave you room for only 1 of.
"But this card has to go in one of three sections - Dimir, U, or B." is an example of your classification system..
If you believe cards of that quality would have to be classified as dimir (since it's at it's best in dimir by a noteable amount, and will see more play in dimir decks than other black or blue decks) and you must only have X number of dimir cards, that's your system... But hopefully you are aware that you are intentionally sacrificing the potential of a better cube card (under the first assumption I started this post with), for the advantages that come with having stricter classification.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
My point was addressing a pattern of reasoning in the thread I didn't like, maybe a bit abstract for a thread about a magic card.
Regarding the point you say, I disagree it's complete garbage.. I'd agree VERY strongly if it was a standalone card, but I think it's a solid option to have attached to a cheap split card that is good on it's own..
If I were to play a split card with say boreal druid and another creature, I'd much rather it be a 7 mana 4/5 reach, than a split card with a 2 mana 2/2 elf that tapped for G/R. 2/2 elf for 2 is a way better card than a 7 mana 4/5 reach, but because the base mode is so similar and a better rate, i'd rather have an overcosted expensive card that occasionally has a much higher upside.
I could see me using the dispersal mode maybe 5% as often as discovery, but the rare time when it's good, it can be really good.. Anticipate can't single handedly answer an emrakul!
There's gotta be a noteable amount of value for a selection spell having a ceiling like that, even if it's rare. You always have the floor of a selection spell available...
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I have a larger (720 card), unpowered cube that, I'd say, has larger guild sections than usual. Even with that however, there is no way I'd cut a "Dimir" card for this; I already have tons of "Dimir" cards on the bench that I want to add but can't find room for. Still... my cube can't get enough cantrips like Preordain - even bad ones. Additionally, I, like some others, classify hybrid cards like Rakdos Cackler as "red" and Kitchen Finks as "green" to 1.) not take away a precious guild slot and 2.) because that's how these cards play. I've also classified a card like Life // Death as "black" before, completely disregarding the Life side of the card - though it would occasionally get used.
So what to do with this? I guess the answer for me is... just don't get too anal about the numbers and find room for Discovery // Dispersal if you want it. Whether you cut a black card for it, a blue card for it, a colorless card, whatever...
I'd give that advice to any cuber, knowing full well that this particular card isn't powerful enough for most. One day though we may get a Discovery // Dispersal with the colorless mana knocked off the Discovery side, but by then the actual "Dimir" section may be an insane power level, so difficult choices might have to be made regarding some of the more rigid classification systems used. To each his own though.
Having mulled over Discovery though - I do think it should have cost 1 generic mana less to be cubeable and the card did not make it in our GRN update, unfortunately. That would make it VERY cubeable though.