Yea this card looks awesome. All these red self-supporting token cards make me want to toss out FTK and some red 5 drop (probably Glorybringer?) for Purphoros, God of the Forge and Hero of Oxid Ridge to get tokens all the support it could ever want. Is there any tokens support in red at 2 cmc or below? The issue I have with that is having to take out very efficient cards to slot in what may be worse ones, but red 2s kinda suck. Even something like Price of Progress might be more generally useful than the current token support from what I can tell.
Yea this card looks awesome. All these red self-supporting token cards make me want to toss out FTK and some red 5 drop (probably Glorybringer?) for Purphoros, God of the Forge and Hero of Oxid Ridge to get tokens all the support it could ever want. Is there any tokens support in red at 2 cmc or below? The issue I have with that is having to take out very efficient cards to slot in what may be worse ones, but red 2s kinda suck. Even something like Price of Progress might be more generally useful than the current token support from what I can tell.
The big ones are Young Pyromancer, Greater Gargadon, and Goblin Bombardment.
Pyromancer isn't really a tokens support card, its more of a control/spell-heavy midrange card. Gargadon is good, but Isn't playable below 450 imo, and I don't think I'd mainboard it in an aggressive deck, even if I had plenty of synergies just because it's so slow..
My issue is that none of the cards that commit you to playing tokens have enough power to make you commit to them early, other than Puph as I remember seeing him absolutely steal games in standard a few years back. Almost all the payoff that exists either isn't good enough or is too narrow, but usually both. The only exceptions that I know of all happen to be at the 4cmc slot, which is already super crowded, and the only exceptional one is Puph, so there just int the critical mass of great payoffs to make me play tokens instead of traditional aggro or midrange. Do my concerns seem justified?
You are not wrong. I don't play any of these cards except for the red god, who is absolutely amazing in some decks. I also run cards like secure the wastes, talrand, empty the warrens and monstery mentor so the god can end up in my spells decks with young pyromancer. Card's like Ogre battledriver would be great at any mana except 4, as you say.
So while the new tokeny 3 drop is great it doesn't change the archetype for red. For me this is the top of my wishlist for red, cheap token support.
Yea. With all these great 3 drops in red now too, I don't think we'd have space to add token support at any cost above 2 unless it was absolutely busted. Tokens is such a cool archetype, so I'm really excited for the new set and more convoke cards. That new white convoke-ring card hes been absolutely incredible for standard testing, so I expect it to make the cut in cube too. It comes down for 1 or 2 mana at most and is oftentimes free, but maybe that's just a biproduct of the powerlevel of standard, rather than a glimpse at it's potential in a vacuum like cube.
Yea. With all these great 3 drops in red now too, I don't think we'd have space to add token support at any cost above 2 unless it was absolutely busted. Tokens is such a cool archetype, so I'm really excited for the new set and more convoke cards. That new white convoke-ring card hes been absolutely incredible for standard testing, so I expect it to make the cut in cube too. It comes down for 1 or 2 mana at most and is oftentimes free, but maybe that's just a biproduct of the powerlevel of standard, rather than a glimpse at it's potential in a vacuum like cube.
Every time I tried to support an all-in tokens strategy in my powered cube it failed pretty bad... Problem was more the abundance of efficient and devastating answers, combined with other synergy decks doing things more powerful/faster than the tokens could (if you go all in with tokens, there isn't room for a lot of answers to what other decks are doing)... Though "light" token synergies are still effective. IE A sorin, a lingering souls, a bitter blossom, a gideon and an angel of invention in a BW disruptive shell works great. Opposition , deranged hermit , nissa voice of zendikar etc.
The only way an agressive tokens based strategy would be more effective in red than a strategy of swarm with cheap creatures -> burn/dragons.. is if there happened to be a lot of life gain in the format AND if there was a lot of cheap 1 for 1 removal, but NOT a lot of good sweeper effects.
Hm that's interesting, and it definitely makes a lot of sense. Purphoros is the only payoff I know of that is clearly insane in a token strategy for red, so is that something that could be worth inclusion at 360 powered?
Hm that's interesting, and it definitely makes a lot of sense. Purphoros is the only payoff I know of that is clearly insane in a token strategy for red, so is that something that could be worth inclusion at 360 powered?
Honestly, I haven't cubed with Purphoros in a long time, but that was before they printed hanweir garrison, najeela AND now legion warboss. Lot of people around here seem to love the card.
I'm very tempted to give it another shot... I wasn't confident it was correct to cut it back when I did and it's only gotten better.
360?? Nah... 450-540? certainly a chance.
Guess my point is that I'd want it to be good enough to organically synergize with the most individual powerful red cards magic has available, not include it if i had to intentionally include sub-par cards like goblin instigator to support "red tokens". Though there are a couple cards that are like 99% good enough, and the addition of purphoros could be the difference to bring those cards back.
Seeing Purph in action in Standard and EDH over the years, it often gets in for 8 or 10 damage in just 2 or 3 turns. That just seems really appealing to me, especially regarding the fact that a bunch of 3 drops can make tokens the exact turn Purph gets cast for instant burst.
At the end of the day, he also survives wraths and can turn into a 6/5 indestructible creature.
They great part of the red god is reach. Plenty of times I get stone walled by midrange blockers or heavy removal decks. Purphorous just keeps doming them as you cast your little dudes and is a hell of a clock with cards like hanwier garrison even if it is suicide attacks.
I just can't decide how many of these I need at 450. I run Rabblemaster and Garrison. I've considered Najeela. Now there's this guy. All four at 450? Three? Tough choices.
I only run Rabblemaster and Garrison at 540, though I could probably find room for Najeela if I really wanted to. Personally I think red 3s have a ton of diverse and powerful effects to offer and I don't want this section to become monolithic in my cube. I'm currently running Rampaging Ferocidon in the slot I would otherwise give to Najeela and I'm very happy about it.
As I think Najeela is better than Warboss, this guy is pretty far from making it into my cube.
I think this is the worst of the token producing red 3s, but on paper he still looks sweet. So if for whatever reason (power level, redundancy, space, etc) you want to cut/avoid one of them, it would probably be either this guy or Najeela, depending on how many cheap Warriors you have besides Najeela.
Personally I think red 3s have a ton of diverse and powerful effects to offer and I don't want this section of my cube to become monolithic in my cube.
This is pretty much how I feel. I could play 4 at 540, and I've liked 3 at 540 (I play Najeela, Garrison, and Rabble --- readded Garrison recently after discussion in this same thread). The problem is the other red 3s are so interesting. Feldon, Recruiter, Squee, etc. are all super unique and interesting. I could cut squee for the 4th of this effect, but I would rather have more unique effects.
Personally I think red 3s have a ton of diverse and powerful effects to offer and I don't want this section of my cube to become monolithic in my cube.
This is pretty much how I feel. I could play 4 at 540, and I've liked 3 at 540 (I play Najeela, Garrison, and Rabble --- readded Garrison recently after discussion in this same thread). The problem is the other red 3s are so interesting. Feldon, Recruiter, Squee, etc. are all super unique and interesting. I could cut squee for the 4th of this effect, but I would rather have more unique effects.
You could always do what I do and categorize Squee as a colorless spell and not a red creature Seriously, what red decks are actually looking to cast Squee on turn 3?
Personally I think red 3s have a ton of diverse and powerful effects to offer and I don't want this section of my cube to become monolithic in my cube.
This is pretty much how I feel. I could play 4 at 540, and I've liked 3 at 540 (I play Najeela, Garrison, and Rabble --- readded Garrison recently after discussion in this same thread). The problem is the other red 3s are so interesting. Feldon, Recruiter, Squee, etc. are all super unique and interesting. I could cut squee for the 4th of this effect, but I would rather have more unique effects.
You could always do what I do and categorize Squee as a colorless spell and not a red creature Seriously, what red decks are actually looking to cast Squee on turn 3?
Squee is often in a deck that can cast it here. Sees play as fodder for sac outlets like Skullclamp, and works wonders in Pod decks. There is plenty of good looting in red a-la Nahiri/Dack/Daretti/firestorm/Faithless/etc. Plus, casting the card can be relevant. At least over here, the only decks that tend to play squee without the ability to cast it is when paired with survival of the fittest.
I have a utility land module that includes the other half of Garrison, and I run Purph. Now that squee is topical, my initial thought is to slam this and cut Squee. He's never drafted and is really niche. Can someone make an argument for that lil guy over this card? I can't imagine him outshining this card ever. The redundancy is a bit unfortunate, but on power level and synergy, this makes it in somewhere.
The main reason for Squee here, as you've mentioned, is to avoid redundancy in favor of uniqueness. While Legion Warboss will see more play than squee, you have three cards that function on a similar axis to the Warboss already, and zero that do what squee does. Squee is one of those cards that I'm always finding new ways to use. He can classically be a nuisance, or abused with sacrifice outlets, looting, and most potent is probably Survival of the Fittest if you want a power-level argument of Squee's potential. The card is fun and unique, and I just don't like cutting cards like that in favor of ones that are largely redundant, yet powerful.
Additionally, if you're making room for Goblin Cratermaker and the new GW card, then maybe you can cut Manic Vandal without worry as you'll have additional ways to handle artifacts stapled to quality creatures. Something to think about I guess.
The main reason for Squee here, as you've mentioned, is to avoid redundancy in favor of uniqueness. While Legion Warboss will see more play than squee, you have three cards that function on a similar axis to the Warboss already, and zero that do what squee does. Squee is one of those cards that I'm always finding new ways to use. He can classically be a nuisance, or abused with sacrifice outlets, looting, and most potent is probably Survival of the Fittest if you want a power-level argument of Squee's potential. The card is fun and unique, and I just don't like cutting cards like that in favor of ones that are largely redundant, yet powerful.
Additionally, if you're making room for Goblin Cratermaker and the new GW card, then maybe you can cut Manic Vandal without worry as you'll have additional ways to handle artifacts stapled to quality creatures. Something to think about I guess.
THIS is a fantastic response, thank you. You make a great point at the end, I AM including additional artifact hate with this update, and vandal seems a bit outclassed. I think that will be my cut over Squee.
I've cubed with legion warboss the most out of the new cards.. It's performed a tiny bit better than expected, because of one interaction I underestimated. The value of mentor with cheap equipment.
There was a situation where the opponent slammed a grafted wargear on the warboss, and pumped a 2/2 to a 3/3. It was very relevant in the combat math and felt extremely miserable.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, cube is littered with 2/x utility creatures, so warboss getting a 2/2 up to a 3/3 is a pretty big deal.
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The big ones are Young Pyromancer, Greater Gargadon, and Goblin Bombardment.
Others are Goblin Wardriver, Barrage of Expendables, and Impact Tremors. I am really hoping for a an impact tremors on a body someday but that is probably unlikely.
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My issue is that none of the cards that commit you to playing tokens have enough power to make you commit to them early, other than Puph as I remember seeing him absolutely steal games in standard a few years back. Almost all the payoff that exists either isn't good enough or is too narrow, but usually both. The only exceptions that I know of all happen to be at the 4cmc slot, which is already super crowded, and the only exceptional one is Puph, so there just int the critical mass of great payoffs to make me play tokens instead of traditional aggro or midrange. Do my concerns seem justified?
So while the new tokeny 3 drop is great it doesn't change the archetype for red. For me this is the top of my wishlist for red, cheap token support.
Every time I tried to support an all-in tokens strategy in my powered cube it failed pretty bad... Problem was more the abundance of efficient and devastating answers, combined with other synergy decks doing things more powerful/faster than the tokens could (if you go all in with tokens, there isn't room for a lot of answers to what other decks are doing)... Though "light" token synergies are still effective. IE A sorin, a lingering souls, a bitter blossom, a gideon and an angel of invention in a BW disruptive shell works great. Opposition , deranged hermit , nissa voice of zendikar etc.
The only way an agressive tokens based strategy would be more effective in red than a strategy of swarm with cheap creatures -> burn/dragons.. is if there happened to be a lot of life gain in the format AND if there was a lot of cheap 1 for 1 removal, but NOT a lot of good sweeper effects.
I also think the convoke O-ring is interesting.
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Honestly, I haven't cubed with Purphoros in a long time, but that was before they printed hanweir garrison, najeela AND now legion warboss. Lot of people around here seem to love the card.
I'm very tempted to give it another shot... I wasn't confident it was correct to cut it back when I did and it's only gotten better.
360?? Nah... 450-540? certainly a chance.
Guess my point is that I'd want it to be good enough to organically synergize with the most individual powerful red cards magic has available, not include it if i had to intentionally include sub-par cards like goblin instigator to support "red tokens". Though there are a couple cards that are like 99% good enough, and the addition of purphoros could be the difference to bring those cards back.
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At the end of the day, he also survives wraths and can turn into a 6/5 indestructible creature.
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As I think Najeela is better than Warboss, this guy is pretty far from making it into my cube.
This is pretty much how I feel. I could play 4 at 540, and I've liked 3 at 540 (I play Najeela, Garrison, and Rabble --- readded Garrison recently after discussion in this same thread). The problem is the other red 3s are so interesting. Feldon, Recruiter, Squee, etc. are all super unique and interesting. I could cut squee for the 4th of this effect, but I would rather have more unique effects.
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You could always do what I do and categorize Squee as a colorless spell and not a red creature Seriously, what red decks are actually looking to cast Squee on turn 3?
Squee is often in a deck that can cast it here. Sees play as fodder for sac outlets like Skullclamp, and works wonders in Pod decks. There is plenty of good looting in red a-la Nahiri/Dack/Daretti/firestorm/Faithless/etc. Plus, casting the card can be relevant. At least over here, the only decks that tend to play squee without the ability to cast it is when paired with survival of the fittest.
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- Najeela
- Rabble
- Garrison
- Recruiter
- Feldon
- Manic Vandal
- Squee
I have a utility land module that includes the other half of Garrison, and I run Purph. Now that squee is topical, my initial thought is to slam this and cut Squee. He's never drafted and is really niche. Can someone make an argument for that lil guy over this card? I can't imagine him outshining this card ever. The redundancy is a bit unfortunate, but on power level and synergy, this makes it in somewhere.
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Additionally, if you're making room for Goblin Cratermaker and the new GW card, then maybe you can cut Manic Vandal without worry as you'll have additional ways to handle artifacts stapled to quality creatures. Something to think about I guess.
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THIS is a fantastic response, thank you. You make a great point at the end, I AM including additional artifact hate with this update, and vandal seems a bit outclassed. I think that will be my cut over Squee.
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There was a situation where the opponent slammed a grafted wargear on the warboss, and pumped a 2/2 to a 3/3. It was very relevant in the combat math and felt extremely miserable.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, cube is littered with 2/x utility creatures, so warboss getting a 2/2 up to a 3/3 is a pretty big deal.
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