MTG Salvation

Love it. Get in my 540!

Do cubes want a slightly worse rabblemaster? I think the answer is yes. The real question is how does this compare to Hanweir Garrison, a card that has really impressed me.

This will look great alongside Goblin Rabblemaster, Hanweir Garrison, and Najeela.

Hey WotC, maybe come up with a different idea for this slot soon? Thanks.

This card is good. At least if they trade off with the main body you're still left with at least one other 2-power creature still on the board. Lower damage output than Rabblemaster, but the floor is ever-so-slightly higher on this one. Plus, it only forces the token to attack the turn it's created ...you don't have to suicide your existing goblins later on!

I was wondering how they were going to make Mentor look appealing to me. Strapping it to a Goblin Rabblemaster is one way to do it, I guess. Didn't expect that, lol.

I mean, card is good.. like 95% of rabblemaster good.. But it's filling my red 3 drop section with a bunch of functionally identical creatures :/
Ah well..

At least there's a cool goblin mini tribal theme going on now. Drop rabblemaster first, then this guy... and watch the goblins fly!

This, Rabblemaster and Garrison are roughly the same power.

Garrison is best at making tokens, e.g. Purphoros or Anthems. The third toughness is great too. First choice for me.

Rabblemaster and Warboss has tribal going on. I will choose these two if goblin tribal becomes more relevant than tokens (unlikely). (Also, if you hate Garrson’s meld text). But between the two, I like the Warboss because it essentially makes 2/2s.

EDIT: Totally forgot about Najeela! I guess she is #1 for me. Don’t have her yet though.

Najeela vs this?

Quote from wtwlf123 »

This card is good. At least if they trade off with the main body you're still left with at least one other 2-power creature still on the board. Lower damage output than Rabblemaster, but the floor is ever-so-slightly higher on this one. Plus, it only forces the token to attack the turn it's created ...you don't have to suicide your existing goblins later on!

I was wondering how they were going to make Mentor look appealing to me. Strapping it to a Goblin Rabblemaster is one way to do it, I guess. Didn't expect that, lol.

The pumpable boros guy is a clever use of mentor too.

Ya, the new Boros guy doesn't appeal to me at all. But I like the interaction between pump and Mentor, that was smart.

Quote from Don D »

Najeela vs this?

I like Najeela more, if only slightly. The exponential nature of her ability spirals out of control really fast, and there's a surprising number of other Warriors in the cube that can shave a full turn off her game-ending clock. And she has a hilarious "achievement unlocked" kind of ability that can lead to some fun deck designs.

I like this card a lot. I'd say it's about equivalent to Garrison (swings for 1 more point on t4, gets a point in on t3, but lower toughness is big). I think this card is an easy include at 450 alongside Garrison and Rabblemaster. Red 3's have come a long way.

FWIW, this card is way way better than Najeela - from a damage output perspective, it's not close. If both are played on t3 and are unchecked, Najeela doesn't exceed Legion Warboss's damage output until turn 7, and it's just as easy to block. The warrior synergy and ability are cool, but neither come up enough to justify playing it over Warboss.

Each one is evaluated on more than just open-board damage output though. Najeels produces more attacking bodies, so in decks that take advantage of token synergies, she does more work. And the Warrior interaction isn't all that niche; it shows up with real regularity. And her 3rd point of base power allows her to attack into creatures that can stonewall the Warboss.

They're both (hell, all 4 are) great, so I'll be playing all of 'em.

Like the damage output, Najeela only surpasses Warboss in token production on turn 7, so disagree on that front.

The 3rd power is an advantage for sure, although there aren’t too many creatures that stonewall Warboss and not Najeela.

In any case, red 3’s feels like one of the strongest slots in cube now. I wish red 2’s got some love like this.

Edit: Wtwlf correctly pointed out that Najeela surpasses Rabblementor on t6, not t7. Even so, I don't think you can rely on either to swing effectively twice.

I'll probably try and find room for this guy, but I definitely wouldn't cut Najeela. Najeela does some things that facilitate interesting and fun game play in a way most cards don't:

1 - She has an "achievement unlocked" feeling to her, which makes for awesome stories.
2 - Her ceiling is absolutely absurd when you can find cards to combo with her (e.g. Mirror Entity).
3 - She is unique and makes you care about something you don't usually care about.

I would currently order token producers at 3cmc in red as Najeela > Rabblemaster > Pia Nalaar > Hanweir Garrison, and I think this guy will slot right in at number 3. Note that there are plenty of times that Rabblemaster is better than Najeela, but I have Najeela higher because I value uniqueness of effects in cube design more than most.

Quote from Tjornan »

Like the damage output, Najeela only surpasses Warboss in token production on turn 7, do disagree on that front.

What?

On the attack step on T6, Warboss creates his 4th token and Najeela produces her 7th... In the T7 scenario you're describing, Warboss makes token #5 and Najeela makes token #15.

Token Production:

Warboss / Najeela
T3: (+1) 1 / (+0) 0
T4: (+1) 2 / (+1) 1
T5: (+1) 3 / (+2) 3
T6: (+1) 4 / (+4) 7
T7: (+1) 5 / (+8) 15

***This is assuming no other Warriors, of course. With even one other warrior on the battlefield, the numbers are astronomically in her favor.***

Quote from ryansaxe »

I would currently order token producers at 3cmc in red as Najeela > Rabblemaster > Pia Nalaar > Hanweir Garrison

Gotta disagree here big time. Garrison is probably the best of the bunch. 3rd toughness is night and day different from the others. The cube is LOADED with Lions, Pikers and Bears (oh my!), and Garrison is the only one that can attack into the most common creature body type in the cube without trading.

Maybe in cubes where combat isn't relevant the order would be different, but if the average game is decided through the red zone, Garrison's 3rd toughness is enormous.

Oops, I meant t6. Even so, that requires you to swing twice with Najeela, and I don't think you can count on either to swing twice.

In any case, direct damage output is the most important metric by which to evaluate these cards because of the decks they tend to go in, so Rabblementor is a good bit better than Najeela.

Agreed with Garrison being the strongest specific token producer. Guaranteeing two tokens on one swing is big (something none of the others can do), and the third toughness is crucial.

Quote from Tjornan »

In any case, direct damage output is the most important metric by which to evaluate these cards...

Oh well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Quote from Tjornan »

I like this card a lot. I'd say it's about equivalent to Garrison (swings for 1 more point on t4, gets a point in on t3, but lower toughness is big). I think this card is an easy include at 450 alongside Garrison and Rabblemaster. Red 3's have come a long way.

FWIW, this card is way way better than Najeela - from a damage output perspective, it's not close. If both are played on t3 and are unchecked, Najeela doesn't exceed Legion Warboss's damage output until turn 7, and it's just as easy to block. The warrior synergy and ability are cool, but neither come up enough to justify playing it over Warboss.

Hyperbole much?
In a vacuum their cumulative damage output is
1 -> 6 -> 13 -> 22
0 -> 4 -> 10 -> 20

this is "not close" to you?

Najeela has advantages of 3 power , warrior synergies (which are relevant), has 5c multi-color advantage (which is relevant in my cube and wouldnt be surprised if a few other cubes get 5c agro decks).. Legion warleader has the downside of must attack when opponent has a lifelink creature. Warleader generates a small advantage through sorcery speed removal.

In the average cube I expect legion warleader to be slightly better, way better is pushing it a lot, way way better is an abuse of the English language.

I'll try to illustrate it a different way. Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom. Leigon Warboss will become the third. Each has their legitimate pros and cons in comparison to one another. I see no reason not to play all 3 of them.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

Quote from ryansaxe »

I would currently order token producers at 3cmc in red as Najeela > Rabblemaster > Pia Nalaar > Hanweir Garrison

Gotta disagree here big time. Garrison is probably the best of the bunch. 3rd toughness is night and day different from the others. The cube is LOADED with Lions, Pikers and Bears (oh my!), and Garrison is the only one that can attack into the most common creature body type in the cube without trading.

Maybe in cubes where combat isn't relevant the order would be different, but if the average game is decided through the red zone, Garrison's 3rd toughness is enormous.

Maybe it was just my playgroups experience with the card, but garrison rarely got to attack. I imagine if the majority of people at your table draft aggressive decks, then that third point of toughness goes a long way. But the fact that the other cards have the ability to generate tokens without attacking, and on the turn that you play them has been much more relevant over here.

Garrison just keeps going in and out of my cube because I hear how everybody says it's great, but it hasn't really ever done its job over here. And I've seen it in a ton of decks AND support aristocrats. Although maybe that is a notable difference, as those decks don't want to risk token producers in combat? Unsure why we've had drastically different results, as our lists aren't all that different.

If I were to create a ranking between the four, I want more prescise language than the > < >= = >>> syntax that is common on these forums since they are so darn close
Hanweir Garrison >= Goblin Rabblemaster > Legion Warleader >= Najeela > Next option

What I love about them all is they all cost 2R! How good is mana crypt gonna be in red agro now

Though I must say if you get a lot of mono-red decks, Goblin Chainwhirler is right up there in the rankings... Chainwhirler is borderline power 9 against White agro, black agro and Green-elf based ramp.. but it also has many matchups where it's mediocore.. This huge gap in power makes it hard to average it's power across all matchups. RRR sux too.

if the majority of people at your table draft aggressive decks, then that third point of toughness goes a long way.

Having 3 toughness matters against everything, not just aggro. Combat isn't an aggro-only phenomenon. It matters the most against midrange, where their value bodies are preventing your creatures from profitably attacking. That's where Garrison's body is the best, and it's the matchup that's the most relevant because it's the hardest matchup for red aggro to begin with.

garrison rarely got to attack

If it never gets to attack, is the lone 1/1 goblin the others leave behind creating some kind of meaningful board impact I'm missing? And if it never got to attack because the opponent had a blocker out, the 1/1 token had to throw itself away anyways.

the other cards have the ability to generate tokens without attacking

Often only relevant because the opponent has a blocker that's preventing the main body from attacking. Which is either A) circumvented by having 3 toughness, or B) irrelevant, because the token Rabblemaster/Rabblementor is creating has to suicide into that body anyways.

Great card. I like how you consistently you can get token synergies in red now without sacrificing powerlevel.

Quote from Metamind »

Great card. I like how you consistently you can get token synergies in red now without sacrificing powerlevel.

Goblin bombardment starting to gain flavour points

Quote from Metamind »

Great card. I like how you consistently you can get token synergies in red now without sacrificing powerlevel.

Ya, this is big for me, because I love playing token decks, but I like to see them come together organically with cards that are good enough on their own. This new guy certainly helps that cause.