I'm a little surprised there isn't a thread on this version of Huatli. This was one of the first cards that stood out to me. I don't think Selesnya is too stacked to not consider this in the top 8 cards in the guild. It seems like the most playable GW walker in cube yet, and plays well with Voice of Resurgence, Mirari's Wake, and plenty of green and white token producers. Gets to 5-7 loyalty pretty reliably off the +1. Is at a sweet spot for the guild as I don't know of any other 4-drop GW cards considered, even in larger cubes. I guess I'm posting because I want to be talked out of cutting Pridemage for this. Any thoughts?
Every ability requires creatures to work, making this pretty lame. None of the GW walkers are particularly great, but I'm more interested in any of the three Ajanis than this.
This immediately struck me as one of the worst (if not THE worst) planeswalker ever printed.
One of the worst Walkers ever printed and that includes the Planeswalkers from the duel decks.
What? The card isn't a powerhouse, but this is not an inherently bad card either. I wouldn't be surprised if she finds a safe home in Standard in Abzan tokens, as her ultimate is easy to achieve and absolutely game winning. This may not be the place to discuss a card's overall playability in other formats, but these comments are obviously making incredibly exaggerated statements that take away from the actual discussion, are completely unnecessary and explain almost nothing.
The card itself seems like you have to activate the ultimate in the first 2 turns to be worth it, meaning you'd need at least 4 creatures when this comes down. She doesn't need to be dropped on turn 4, so I don't feel like it's that hard to achieve the ultimate on her second turn. Although an unlikely candidate for a Selesnya slot, I don't think she should be discredited so quickly, and I feel like many are overestimating the current power of the guild. The only Selesnya cards I feel like are absolute staples are Kitchen Finks and Glare of Subdual, and there is a pretty steep drop off in power level, ranging from aggro cards like Qasali Pridemage and Voice of Resurgence to fringe inclusions like Mirari's Wake and Knight of the Reliquary. Many of these cards have historically been very powerful, but besides the Pridemage they hardly make the cut anymore because they're too slow and situational. I'm not saying that Huatli is an exceptionally powerful card but you guys are seriously overvaluing the power of this color combination, especially in cubes with 3 or 4 cards of each guild. I at least wouldn't dismiss her so soon without at least trying her first.
It might be fine as a 1-2 of in constructed like *****ty giddy was, but also like *****ty giddy it'll almost definitely suffer in cube by not being able to protect itself.
Absolutely not. The only guilds worse than Selesnya are Simic and Rakdos, even Dimir and Izzet have surpassed it in power level. Selesnya is in an awkward spot where most of its decent cards are only playable in GW midrange, and midrange is getting worse after each new set release as all the other deck types become more and more refined and capable of either killing on turn 4 or easily out-valuing a majority of midrange threats. At least Simic and Rakdos have the excuse that most of their cards are just trash, rather than that their entire guild is bad at doing anything other than curve out and lose to wraths and burn spells.
This immediately struck me as one of the worst (if not THE worst) planeswalker ever printed.
One of the worst Walkers ever printed and that includes the Planeswalkers from the duel decks.
What? The card isn't a powerhouse, but this is not an inherently bad card either. I wouldn't be surprised if she finds a safe home in Standard in Abzan tokens, as her ultimate is easy to achieve and absolutely game winning. This may not be the place to discuss a card's overall playability in other formats, but these comments are obviously making incredibly exaggerated statements that take away from the actual discussion, are completely unnecessary and explain almost nothing.
The card itself seems like you have to activate the ultimate in the first 2 turns to be worth it, meaning you'd need at least 4 creatures when this comes down. She doesn't need to be dropped on turn 4, so I don't feel like it's that hard to achieve the ultimate on her second turn. Although an unlikely candidate for a Selesnya slot, I don't think she should be discredited so quickly, and I feel like many are overestimating the current power of the guild. The only Selesnya cards I feel like are absolute staples are Kitchen Finks and Glare of Subdual, and there is a pretty steep drop off in power level, ranging from aggro cards like Qasali Pridemage and Voice of Resurgence to fringe inclusions like Mirari's Wake and Knight of the Reliquary. Many of these cards have historically been very powerful, but besides the Pridemage they hardly make the cut anymore because they're too slow and situational. I'm not saying that Huatli is an exceptionally powerful card but you guys are seriously overvaluing the power of this color combination, especially in cubes with 3 or 4 cards of each guild. I at least wouldn't dismiss her so soon without at least trying her first.
So you need a full board
Then your reward is
A slow draw engine???
Compare to Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Ajani puts permanent P/T onto the table with counters and is an instant card-advantage engine, even onto an empty board. Yes, it's one CMC more, but Huatli is such a bad T4 play in most games that that doesn't matter as much as it generally would.
If you wanted a Selesnya card as a go-wide reward, I'd play Collective Blessing way before this. But really, the competition is random efficient beaters; I agree that Selesnya is bad, but this still sits way behind the likes of Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion, etc etc.
I don't think Selesnya is really laden with amazing S-tier cards, outside of Finks, but I really don't like Huatli. It seems like a plant or nod to a future token-heavy block or something, else it's very much underpowered.
I think Rakdos is pretty great too, at least at the top tier (Kolaghan's Command, Cackler and Daretti) so take that for what it's worth.
Absolutely not. The only guilds worse than Selesnya are Simic and Rakdos, even Dimir and Izzet have surpassed it in power level. Selesnya is in an awkward spot where most of its decent cards are only playable in GW midrange, and midrange is getting worse after each new set release as all the other deck types become more and more refined and capable of either killing on turn 4 or easily out-valuing a majority of midrange threats. At least Simic and Rakdos have the excuse that most of their cards are just trash, rather than that their entire guild is bad at doing anything other than curve out and lose to wraths and burn spells.
We will just have to agree to disagree here. I think the top cards in Rakdos, Izzet, and Dimir are good but there's a drop off after the top 3-4. And I don't see my Selesnya decks just folding to wraths and burn, nor do I think midrange necessarily gets outclassed.
Back on topic, I just don't think a walker that needs multiple creatures in play to be good is worth considering. I can think of more than 10 cards in this guild I'd run before Huatli.
The worst (and less deep) guilds are Simic and Boros. Rakdos is super stacked AND powerful, as Selesnya. Seriously, I wouldn't even consider this card if our cube contained like 15+ of each guild cards. I'm not even sure we would play it in a guild only cube compose of 360 cards...
My cube is much more forgiving than others, and my Selesnya section has some pretty mediocre cards in it (it's my weakest guild). I could easily slot this in, but it throws all the red flags. It's true that Collective Blessing or even Armadillo Cloak also do nothing unless you have creatures on the board, but that's a much more crippling blow for a planeswalker.
By comparison, Ajani, Valiant Protector has a pretty proactive +1 that can really come through, and the +2 only requires you to have one creature to get benefit, and retains it. Huatli's +X has zero board impact, and the -1 only works until end of turn, and is thoroughly unreliable. She has the potential to get to an early ultimate, which can be decent value over the course of the game, but the value is gradual, and not readily game ending. Plus, to get that early ultimate, you need a better than average board, making it win-more. The ultimate is all she really has going for her, and planeswalkers shouldn't be judged on their ultimates. I'd gladly pay two extra mana to get Valiant Protector over this, and that's the planeswalker deck version. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes is leagues better.
I've been waiting for a really cool GW walker to add to my cube, and I don't happen to have any of the Ajanis, so I'll add this if I open it just because the guild is so weak and lacks a walker, but even if I do, it will always be waiting to be removed for something better. Might of the Masses is the majority of this card, and Appeal // Authority is a better version than Huatli.
All that said, if you want to add this card, don't let us losers talk you out of it. There's no objectively right answer in cube building, and if you want to try Huatli, try Huatli.
Selesnya's top end isn't as powerful as some of the other guilds, but man is it deep. Simic and Boros are both pretty shallow, and exhaust their competitive options pretty fast. But Selesnya has good options to use no matter how big the cube is.
This is why I posted, I really enjoyed some of the points made here (thanks to those who gave explanations and added to the discussion). My initial analysis was way off after considering the feedback. I'll be keeping my Pridemage and looking past this walker. There are certainly better options in the guild, but I personally feel my Selesnya section needed some identity and was hoping this could move it into a GW tokens/go wide theme. Again, thanks for the discussion!
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Looks horrendous unless you really want a four mana Might of the Masses with rebound
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What? The card isn't a powerhouse, but this is not an inherently bad card either. I wouldn't be surprised if she finds a safe home in Standard in Abzan tokens, as her ultimate is easy to achieve and absolutely game winning. This may not be the place to discuss a card's overall playability in other formats, but these comments are obviously making incredibly exaggerated statements that take away from the actual discussion, are completely unnecessary and explain almost nothing.
The card itself seems like you have to activate the ultimate in the first 2 turns to be worth it, meaning you'd need at least 4 creatures when this comes down. She doesn't need to be dropped on turn 4, so I don't feel like it's that hard to achieve the ultimate on her second turn. Although an unlikely candidate for a Selesnya slot, I don't think she should be discredited so quickly, and I feel like many are overestimating the current power of the guild. The only Selesnya cards I feel like are absolute staples are Kitchen Finks and Glare of Subdual, and there is a pretty steep drop off in power level, ranging from aggro cards like Qasali Pridemage and Voice of Resurgence to fringe inclusions like Mirari's Wake and Knight of the Reliquary. Many of these cards have historically been very powerful, but besides the Pridemage they hardly make the cut anymore because they're too slow and situational. I'm not saying that Huatli is an exceptionally powerful card but you guys are seriously overvaluing the power of this color combination, especially in cubes with 3 or 4 cards of each guild. I at least wouldn't dismiss her so soon without at least trying her first.
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Absolutely not. The only guilds worse than Selesnya are Simic and Rakdos, even Dimir and Izzet have surpassed it in power level. Selesnya is in an awkward spot where most of its decent cards are only playable in GW midrange, and midrange is getting worse after each new set release as all the other deck types become more and more refined and capable of either killing on turn 4 or easily out-valuing a majority of midrange threats. At least Simic and Rakdos have the excuse that most of their cards are just trash, rather than that their entire guild is bad at doing anything other than curve out and lose to wraths and burn spells.
So you need a full board
Then your reward is
A slow draw engine???
Compare to Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Ajani puts permanent P/T onto the table with counters and is an instant card-advantage engine, even onto an empty board. Yes, it's one CMC more, but Huatli is such a bad T4 play in most games that that doesn't matter as much as it generally would.
If you wanted a Selesnya card as a go-wide reward, I'd play Collective Blessing way before this. But really, the competition is random efficient beaters; I agree that Selesnya is bad, but this still sits way behind the likes of Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion, etc etc.
I think Rakdos is pretty great too, at least at the top tier (Kolaghan's Command, Cackler and Daretti) so take that for what it's worth.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
We will just have to agree to disagree here. I think the top cards in Rakdos, Izzet, and Dimir are good but there's a drop off after the top 3-4. And I don't see my Selesnya decks just folding to wraths and burn, nor do I think midrange necessarily gets outclassed.
Back on topic, I just don't think a walker that needs multiple creatures in play to be good is worth considering. I can think of more than 10 cards in this guild I'd run before Huatli.
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By comparison, Ajani, Valiant Protector has a pretty proactive +1 that can really come through, and the +2 only requires you to have one creature to get benefit, and retains it. Huatli's +X has zero board impact, and the -1 only works until end of turn, and is thoroughly unreliable. She has the potential to get to an early ultimate, which can be decent value over the course of the game, but the value is gradual, and not readily game ending. Plus, to get that early ultimate, you need a better than average board, making it win-more. The ultimate is all she really has going for her, and planeswalkers shouldn't be judged on their ultimates. I'd gladly pay two extra mana to get Valiant Protector over this, and that's the planeswalker deck version. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes is leagues better.
I've been waiting for a really cool GW walker to add to my cube, and I don't happen to have any of the Ajanis, so I'll add this if I open it just because the guild is so weak and lacks a walker, but even if I do, it will always be waiting to be removed for something better. Might of the Masses is the majority of this card, and Appeal // Authority is a better version than Huatli.
All that said, if you want to add this card, don't let us losers talk you out of it. There's no objectively right answer in cube building, and if you want to try Huatli, try Huatli.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Un-Spiracy Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/63204
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Cheers,
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