It's an interesting card. It's weird that there's no real clear defined floor--sometimes you're going to want the body and you get the card draw, and when you want the card draw/lands you're still digging and are left with a 4/3. It's almost like a more proactive Yavimaya Elder, not a perfect comparison obviously but can be similar in end result.
What's the over/under on cubeable green 3 drops for this set? Right now we're at 2.
Is it time to cut the old fart, A.K.A Yavimaya Elder? Probably yes. Same cost too.
A 3/2 body that draws you a land (on average) is sweet. Can go in ramp decks, provides good value, good blocker, graveyard engine, and can even go in more aggressive green shells
Talk about a slot that’s gone from 0-60 over just a few years. I feel like this has to be good enough, but I feel that way about all the potential cuts.
If you want the 4/3 body and see a nonland on top for the first explore, you can keep it there. This effectively nets you a 4/3 with ETB scry 1, so that's pretty neat.
Good point, wow that is nice. You have some form of control.
Solid card. I wish it were 2G, but what can you do? It'll probably play pretty close to a Rogue Refiner a lot of the time. I don't have room at 405, but I think I'd experiment with it if my cube were bigger.
I've found explore to be weaker then I I initially thought. Like punisher effects, even though all the outcomes are good, the one that is best for you is commonly not what you get.
In Ixalan limited I almost always wanted the +1/+1 counter and not getting it cost me games. Cube is certainly not Ixalan limited but there will always be an outcome off the explore triggers that I want, and it's basically a coin flip if I'll get it or not. Anyway, I was really high on explore and now not so much. If you're digging for lands it's good but otherwise I've been underwhelmed. And with the double green cc, this guy is probably not what I want to see if I'm having mana issues.
Edit: This guy is no Yavinaya Elder. With the elder you can count on getting those lands. You can't do it with this guy. So if your not ramping with him are you aggroing? Cuz he's not the best aggro body either. That's the issue with cards like this. Because you can't depend on what the card is going to do, it makes it worse then any card that would do one of the individual results.
Talk about a slot that’s gone from 0-60 over just a few years. I feel like this has to be good enough, but I feel that way about all the potential cuts.
This is exactly how I feel.
This creature seems very good... But there's even some green 3's I'm not including at the moment that I think are strong cards.
Testing for sure though. 4/3 that scrys 2, 3/2 draw 1 card scry 1 , 2/1 draw 2 are all pretty great for 3 mana. This is sligthly worse than a randomization between those three modes, but not significantly.
I've found explore to be weaker then I I initially thought. Like punisher effects, even though all the outcomes are good, the one that is best for you is commonly not what you get.
In Ixalan limited I almost always wanted the +1/+1 counter and not getting it cost me games. Cube is certainly not Ixalan limited but there will always be an outcome off the explore triggers that I want, and it's basically a coin flip if I'll get it or not. Anyway, I was really high on explore and now not so much. If you're digging for lands it's good but otherwise I've been underwhelmed. And with the double green cc, this guy is probably not what I want to see if I'm having mana issues.
Edit: This guy is no Yavinaya Elder. With the elder you can count on getting those lands. You can't do it with this guy. So if your not ramping with him are you aggroing? Cuz he's not the best aggro body either. That's the issue with cards like this. Because you can't depend on what the card is going to do, it makes it worse then any card that would do one of the individual results.
So, Ixalan limited was all about combat and racing.. There was very little if anything to do with excess lands once you hit 6-7 mana, so you were pretty unhappy to be drawing a land.
Also there were a ton of 2/2's in the format, so the difference between a 3 toughness body and a 2 toughness body was a huge deal. Especially on Siren lookout. 1/2 flyer vs a 2/3 flyer is astronomical.
Cube is a very different beast. The difference between a 3/2 and a 4/3 body will be MUCH less relevant than it would in ixlan limited. Drawing excess lands are better and the format is more dominated by high impact cards and card advantage (Scry is very valuable when you have power in your deck for example).
Randomizing between two outcomes is much less bad than assuredly getting the worst of two outcomes. Punisher mechanic is a loose analogy, but I get your point.
I wish this were a base 1/2 creature for 2G. I'd rather have the 2/3 draw + scry 1 than the 3/2 as an average body size. The 2/1 is better in the "draw 2" mode, but I'd rather have the 1/2 base body for both it's other modes. I'd be willing to give up the 2-power floor for a splashable casting cost. Oh well.
I you guys want to cut Yavimaya Elder, you should just cut him. I think he blows this guy out of the water, but there's no reason to cling to a card you don't want around anymore.
This is a pretty sweet value card. It's not one I'd go way out of my way to add, as it's pretty much just goodstuff, but it is good goodstuff. I do feel like Courser of Kruphix covers a lot of the same territory, and has a higher ceiling despite a lower floor.
If I try this, and I may, I think it'll be in the slot currently occupied by Rhonas the Indomitable. I still love Yavimaya Elder. That old man's in no danger of getting cut.
If I try this, and I may, I think it'll be in the slot currently occupied by Rhonas the Indomitable. I still love Yavimaya Elder. That old man's in no danger of getting cut.
How has Rhonas been? I never had a chance to play with her before she was cut for Ramanup Excavator.
I find it intersting that people are talking about cutting Rishkar for Jadelight because I think they share the same issue. Although this card is definitely better, neither has a true home and I just don't think either is good enough as a goodstuff card in cube. Crazy efficient cards like Vampie Nighthawk and Baneslayer Angel are starting to get cut. If you don't have a home, you need to be really freaking good these days.
Edit: I agree with what wtwlf123 said about wishing for a more defensive body for the easier casting cost and I also think Salmo raises a good point about the double explore mitigating the randomness of a single explore trigger. If you hit that noncreature spell on the first trigger, I bet you it's almost always correct to ditch it. This is definitely more intersting then a regular explore card.
Talk about a slot that’s gone from 0-60 over just a few years. I feel like this has to be good enough, but I feel that way about all the potential cuts.
Green 3s are really weird to me. I feel like there are a ton of pretty solid ones, but very few of them really blow me away.
Agreed with Antipox. The only ones I feel like are uncuttable are Rec Sage, Eternal Witness, and Courser of Kruphix and two of those aren't cards you'll play on curve very often. Green really lacks in creatures that are great T3 curve plays, which is why I'm leaning towards adding this. Will likely cut Rishkar, who I wanted to be good so bad but just isn't.
If I try this, and I may, I think it'll be in the slot currently occupied by Rhonas the Indomitable. I still love Yavimaya Elder. That old man's in no danger of getting cut.
How has Rhonas been? I never had a chance to play with her before she was cut for Ramanup Excavator.
Not sure if this is a thread derail, but I find Rhonas solid but expendable.
If you were ever on the backfoot, it did stone nothing, and against control decks, there were times where you had no creature to activate it on and it sat there... or you tried to activate it on a small creature, and they instant speed removed it, hurting your tempo.
However, there were spots/matchups where rhonas did more than any green 3 drop could ever do, making it a high variance card.
Overall decided it wasn't up to the competition and cut it after about 3-5 months of solid testing.
The reason why I cut elder was that he was so anemic when I needed the body and never wanted to spend 5 mana to draw 2 lands and a randomized m card. Too slow for me
This card just feels meh to me without control over the modes. Rishkar is on the bubble for me but is very aggressive and occasionally gives a ramp when needed. Rhonas is simple better than this for a deck looking to beat down. Seems fine for what midrange tries to do, but I think it will underperform Sea Gate Oracle and that is my bar for this type of card.
The one big plus is curving into restoration angel. And collected company and woodland bellower for the people playing those
This guy has to be better than Rishkar, as that card was pretty much a 3/3 elf for 2G.
What? I have been endlessly impressed with Rishkar. This card seems so bad by comparison. Maybe it's because we play a lot of creature-based G ramp decks here, and Rishkar is great with stuff like wall of roots or any random non-ramping value creature.
Pretty good value, definitely a hybrid of Tireless Tracker / Yavimaya Elder. GG kind of sucks, but this is definitely cubeable.
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What's the over/under on cubeable green 3 drops for this set? Right now we're at 2.
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A 3/2 body that draws you a land (on average) is sweet. Can go in ramp decks, provides good value, good blocker, graveyard engine, and can even go in more aggressive green shells
100% testable. I'm 100% excited.
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Good point, wow that is nice. You have some form of control.
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Either a 3 mana:
- 4/3, "scry" 1, "scry" 1
- 3/2, draw 1, "scry" 1 or mill 1, draw 1
- 2/1, draw 2
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In Ixalan limited I almost always wanted the +1/+1 counter and not getting it cost me games. Cube is certainly not Ixalan limited but there will always be an outcome off the explore triggers that I want, and it's basically a coin flip if I'll get it or not. Anyway, I was really high on explore and now not so much. If you're digging for lands it's good but otherwise I've been underwhelmed. And with the double green cc, this guy is probably not what I want to see if I'm having mana issues.
Edit: This guy is no Yavinaya Elder. With the elder you can count on getting those lands. You can't do it with this guy. So if your not ramping with him are you aggroing? Cuz he's not the best aggro body either. That's the issue with cards like this. Because you can't depend on what the card is going to do, it makes it worse then any card that would do one of the individual results.
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This is exactly how I feel.
This creature seems very good... But there's even some green 3's I'm not including at the moment that I think are strong cards.
Testing for sure though. 4/3 that scrys 2, 3/2 draw 1 card scry 1 , 2/1 draw 2 are all pretty great for 3 mana. This is sligthly worse than a randomization between those three modes, but not significantly.
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So, Ixalan limited was all about combat and racing.. There was very little if anything to do with excess lands once you hit 6-7 mana, so you were pretty unhappy to be drawing a land.
Also there were a ton of 2/2's in the format, so the difference between a 3 toughness body and a 2 toughness body was a huge deal. Especially on Siren lookout. 1/2 flyer vs a 2/3 flyer is astronomical.
Cube is a very different beast. The difference between a 3/2 and a 4/3 body will be MUCH less relevant than it would in ixlan limited. Drawing excess lands are better and the format is more dominated by high impact cards and card advantage (Scry is very valuable when you have power in your deck for example).
Randomizing between two outcomes is much less bad than assuredly getting the worst of two outcomes. Punisher mechanic is a loose analogy, but I get your point.
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This is a pretty sweet value card. It's not one I'd go way out of my way to add, as it's pretty much just goodstuff, but it is good goodstuff. I do feel like Courser of Kruphix covers a lot of the same territory, and has a higher ceiling despite a lower floor.
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I find it intersting that people are talking about cutting Rishkar for Jadelight because I think they share the same issue. Although this card is definitely better, neither has a true home and I just don't think either is good enough as a goodstuff card in cube. Crazy efficient cards like Vampie Nighthawk and Baneslayer Angel are starting to get cut. If you don't have a home, you need to be really freaking good these days.
Edit: I agree with what wtwlf123 said about wishing for a more defensive body for the easier casting cost and I also think Salmo raises a good point about the double explore mitigating the randomness of a single explore trigger. If you hit that noncreature spell on the first trigger, I bet you it's almost always correct to ditch it. This is definitely more intersting then a regular explore card.
Agreed with Antipox. The only ones I feel like are uncuttable are Rec Sage, Eternal Witness, and Courser of Kruphix and two of those aren't cards you'll play on curve very often. Green really lacks in creatures that are great T3 curve plays, which is why I'm leaning towards adding this. Will likely cut Rishkar, who I wanted to be good so bad but just isn't.
While cute, I am not cubing with this.
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Not sure if this is a thread derail, but I find Rhonas solid but expendable.
If you were ever on the backfoot, it did stone nothing, and against control decks, there were times where you had no creature to activate it on and it sat there... or you tried to activate it on a small creature, and they instant speed removed it, hurting your tempo.
However, there were spots/matchups where rhonas did more than any green 3 drop could ever do, making it a high variance card.
Overall decided it wasn't up to the competition and cut it after about 3-5 months of solid testing.
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This card just feels meh to me without control over the modes. Rishkar is on the bubble for me but is very aggressive and occasionally gives a ramp when needed. Rhonas is simple better than this for a deck looking to beat down. Seems fine for what midrange tries to do, but I think it will underperform Sea Gate Oracle and that is my bar for this type of card.
The one big plus is curving into restoration angel. And collected company and woodland bellower for the people playing those
What? I have been endlessly impressed with Rishkar. This card seems so bad by comparison. Maybe it's because we play a lot of creature-based G ramp decks here, and Rishkar is great with stuff like wall of roots or any random non-ramping value creature.
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