We feel OG Bolas is slightly better than this one. Still not 100% certified, but we tend to realise, after initial testing results, that the 8-mana has an average higher impact on the game than this one. The only upside God-Pharoad has, except for the smaller mana cost, is its ability to kill player. For to rest, OG Bolas looks way ahead. Also, decks that run 7-mana or 8-mana cards (that are alos 3-color) don't care that much about the difference in CMC.
Also, decks that run 7-mana or 8-mana cards (that are alos 3-color) don't care that much about the difference in CMC.
Yes and no. With a planeswalker, you get that one extra activation in a lot of games, which can be huge. There are certain draws like with grim monoliths and stuff where when you're hitting 7 mana you're also hitting 8 due to an abundance, but a planeswalker's value heavily leans on when it hits and how many activations you can get out of it, and a large part of that is due to cost. It's why some 3 mana walkers look bad but end up playing way better in practice as they are able to get more 'spells' off with the multiple activations over X amount of turns. This ignores the real situations where you get to 7 mana and can't reach 8, which I agree is not a concern that hits every game but if they're close enough then it really makes itself apparent when you are at those 7 mana vs 8 mana scenarios.
The gap between 7 to 8 mana is a much bigger gap from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc. Not only that, but an extra black is also hindering to a lot of decks, especially the artifact deck since black is usually the tertiary color for that shell. Curving up to 7 from commonly played mana rocks by turn 4-5 with all 3 colors up is much easier than getting up to 4UBBR. Being able to come out early as possible is crucial because you don't want to open yourself to disruption via artifact destruction, land destruction, or discard.
God-Pharoah is going to put in a ton of work before OG Bolas can hit the field.
Also, decks that run 7-mana or 8-mana cards (that are alos 3-color) don't care that much about the difference in CMC.
This is inaccurate.
It may not matter on a Tinker/Natural Order target or a reanimation creature, but when you're casting it, the difference is huge. Sometimes you can make 12 mana and it doesn't matter. But more often, you'll finally reach 7 mana and be staring at an 8 mana card. And it's not just the total cost, it's also the mana demand. Requiring more colored mana symbols is a big deal. Ugin is closer to Karn in casting cost than OG Bolas is to new Bolas.
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The gap between 7 to 8 mana is a much bigger gap from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc.
This is accurate.
After you're done with your normal curve, hitting additional mana becomes harder and less consistent. Beyond a converted mana cost of 4 or 5, spells become almost exponentially harder to reach. Particularly if your mana sources can be disrupted by the opponent.
I've already seen a big difference in playability between the new Bolas and the old one. It's much, much easier to play and cast new Bolas.
My group agrees that we want to swap old Bolas for new Bolas, but only because he's new and we want to play with new cards. Looking at both cards side by side, I still prefer the abilities and board presence of the original.
And fwiw, I also agree with Zetsu that, in a deck that knows it wants to be able to cast a card like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, getting to eight mana is not that difficult, even with the extra black thrown in. These decks tend to play three or more mana rocks, and those rocks usually end up on the Thran Dynamo, Guilded Lotus side of things. I think you can't really evaluate getting to eight mana vs seven mana in a vacuum when you're looking at cards like this. You really need to look it and base it on the type of deck it's going in. You're not throwing either of these cards into your run of the mill midrange deck and trying to get there with only your normal land drops. You're going to realize that you're putting an eight drop in your deck and you need to draft/build accordingly because you want your deck to be able to reliable get to eight mana and reliably produce the necessary colors to cast your spells.
It's not a matter of difficulty getting up to 8 mana, it's consistency and time between 7 and 8, and that gap in consistency is not small.
While I think that's true in general, I still think it's unfair to say that as a blanket statement when it comes to card evaluation. In general, yeah, curving out gets harder as the game progresses, but that won't necessarily be true for all decks, especially if the deck is built with curving into 7-8 drops in mind. Looking at Bolas specifically, these decks will be including card draw to find lands, mana rocks to help ramp, counter spells and removal to stall the game. Getting to Bolas mana (either Bolas) shouldn't be a challenge for those decks and it should happen with some consistency outside of the bad draws and Magic's good old luck factor.
It's not a matter of difficulty getting up to 8 mana, it's consistency and time between 7 and 8, and that gap in consistency is not small.
While I think that's true in general, I still think it's unfair to say that as a blanket statement when it comes to card evaluation.
It's not unfair at all when the numbers don't lie: 8 mana > 7 mana, period. A lot of things can happen by the time you get from 7 to 8 mana, like losing your mana sources, getting Bolas discarded, your opponent having counter magic up later, or the board state becoming extremely unfavorable before you reach 8 mana. God-Pharaoh can do so much work before OG Bolas can even hit the board.
I think the cumulative abilities of both OG Bolas and God-Pharaoh are fairly even. I can be convinced that either one of them can be considered better than the other especially in different scenarios, but it would only be by a hair, IMO. Is that hair worth an extra B? Not to me, and I haven't heard any convincing argument that would convince me otherwise.
7 mana is easier to reach than 8 mana. And significantly so. XYYZ is harder to assemble than 1XYZ. And significantly so. Yes, there are situations where you can easily cast either one. But A) that doesn't mean that represents the majority of casting windows, and B) that doesn't change the significance of the mana issues.
But cost aside, new Bolas has just been better. 7 damage is a ton. Your win condition is no longer tied to creatures in the red zone. It has extra abilities, and more loyalty. It can attack the opponent's hand. It has arguably the most fun, flavorful and exciting 'walker {+} ability in the game. And it has all the obvious advantages relating to the mana cost comparisons. I think it's simply the better cube card. It looked that way on paper, and it's definitely performing that way in practice.
Fwiw, the bigger deal in the casting cost reduction is from two black mana to one.
This allows bolas to be played where black is a splash, very common in artifact decks that use signets to fix.
The exponentially difficult mana cost 7->8 argument is more complicated when you get to the higher mana costs than traditional limited.
You have to examine the set of cards that get you to that mana cost in the format.
If it's all done via single land drops without tons of card draw, 7->8 mana is an enormous difference.
If it's in a super ramp deck with tolarian academy and multiple mana vault/coalition relic type rocks, its not THAT different..
Though it's certainly non neglible.
For that reason 11 is actually not that much different then 10 to cast in cube In most decks that want to run those cards... as you probably need some kind of broken mana source to get up to that CMC anyway.
For that reason 11 is actually not that much different then 10 to cast in cube In most decks that want to run those cards... as you probably need some kind of broken mana source to get up to that CMC anyway.
It's one of the things I've liked the most about new Bolas. It's a playable finisher for Grixis control decks, that aren't playing a ton of ramp but can reach 7 sources in the late game reliably. And being splashable w/ black is a big part of that.
The first real blow for this thing is that if you can play it you might as well just play the original Nicol Bolas Planeswalker. Despite having one ability less the original offering is a much better game closer and problem solver card. It has more immediate and relevant impact on the game and generally does read "win the game". God-Pharaoh on the other hand seems like a slow and awkward tool to do what you need to do.
The +2 is powerful but utterly unreliable and slow. On average you are getting a low power thing that won't help solve your larger problems. Don't get me wrong, a 2 or 3 free mana, a free card and 2 loyalty is good but it is a slow value tool which is not why you play seven drops in cube. The +1 is great too, it will destroy slow decks. Unfortunately when you are playing seven mana planeswalkers you are the slowest deck. It doesn't win you the game, it just shuts down your opponent somewhat if for some reason they still held action... The ultimate would be great if you could use it without having to do at least 3 turns worth of plus loyalty effects. Again it is slow and again it doesn't win the game. It isn't a good problem solver even though it should be just because it is so slow and unreliable to get there. Lastly the -4, it is good, it has a bit of reach and some control over the board. It is what you want to be doing with a card like this but it is too pricey. You can't do it back to back, you leave your Bolas on 3 loyalty if you do it right away. If this were a -3 cost then this would be a whole lot more interesting, it would have enough threat level to merit its cost. Very powerful but not what you need in cubes.
The first real blow for this thing is that if you can play it you might as well just play the original Nicol Bolas Planeswalker.
But when you can play new Bolas you still can't play OG Bolas. OG Bolas is going to take you 2 more turns to find that 8th land and by that time you've sent 14 damage to the face and won the game.
Would you play OG bolas if its cost was 4UBR, but had an additional drawback that you can't activate any of its abilities until you have 8 lands in play? (or could generate 4UBBR)
My answer would be a definite no, when I could just play new bolas. To me, the turns it takes to find the extra black mana is not worth the better abilities.
OG Bolas is going to take you 2 more turns to find that 8th land and by that time you've sent 14 damage to the face and won the game.
This may be true some of the time, but it won't be true all of the time. And, as I've said above, the kind of deck that wants to play an 8-drop planeswalker shouldn't have any trouble staying in the game long enough to reach eight mana. These decks have ramp to ensure they get there on time if not early and they have removal, sweepers, and other disruption to keep the opponent in check. I really just don't agree with the argument that seven is less than eight and one black mana is less than two so this new Bolas is better.
Also, and this may just be a personal note, but I don't want my finishing planeswalker to just be a fireball. Obviously seven damage is a lot and will sometimes just win you the game on the spot, but I'd rather see interaction and game play.
OG Bolas is going to take you 2 more turns to find that 8th land and by that time you've sent 14 damage to the face and won the game.
This may be true some of the time, but it won't be true all of the time. And, as I've said above, the kind of deck that wants to play an 8-drop planeswalker shouldn't have any trouble staying in the game long enough to reach eight mana. These decks have ramp to ensure they get there on time if not early and they have removal, sweepers, and other disruption to keep the opponent in check. I really just don't agree with the argument that seven is less than eight and one black mana is less than two so this new Bolas is better.
Also, and this may just be a personal note, but I don't want my finishing planeswalker to just be a fireball. Obviously seven damage is a lot and will sometimes just win you the game on the spot, but I'd rather see interaction and game play.
I think it's true more times often than not. The thing about ramp decks is although they ramp 2-3 mana ahead, they also LOSE that much mana when they're disrupted. Being able to climb up to 8 is one thing, being able to get BACK to 8 is another.
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum and like seeing more planeswalkers close out games faster rather than durdle for value. Being able to close out games fairly quick is why Chandra, Flamecaller is such a great planeswalker.
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Yes and no. With a planeswalker, you get that one extra activation in a lot of games, which can be huge. There are certain draws like with grim monoliths and stuff where when you're hitting 7 mana you're also hitting 8 due to an abundance, but a planeswalker's value heavily leans on when it hits and how many activations you can get out of it, and a large part of that is due to cost. It's why some 3 mana walkers look bad but end up playing way better in practice as they are able to get more 'spells' off with the multiple activations over X amount of turns. This ignores the real situations where you get to 7 mana and can't reach 8, which I agree is not a concern that hits every game but if they're close enough then it really makes itself apparent when you are at those 7 mana vs 8 mana scenarios.
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God-Pharoah is going to put in a ton of work before OG Bolas can hit the field.
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This is inaccurate.
It may not matter on a Tinker/Natural Order target or a reanimation creature, but when you're casting it, the difference is huge. Sometimes you can make 12 mana and it doesn't matter. But more often, you'll finally reach 7 mana and be staring at an 8 mana card. And it's not just the total cost, it's also the mana demand. Requiring more colored mana symbols is a big deal. Ugin is closer to Karn in casting cost than OG Bolas is to new Bolas.
This is accurate.
After you're done with your normal curve, hitting additional mana becomes harder and less consistent. Beyond a converted mana cost of 4 or 5, spells become almost exponentially harder to reach. Particularly if your mana sources can be disrupted by the opponent.
I've already seen a big difference in playability between the new Bolas and the old one. It's much, much easier to play and cast new Bolas.
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And fwiw, I also agree with Zetsu that, in a deck that knows it wants to be able to cast a card like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, getting to eight mana is not that difficult, even with the extra black thrown in. These decks tend to play three or more mana rocks, and those rocks usually end up on the Thran Dynamo, Guilded Lotus side of things. I think you can't really evaluate getting to eight mana vs seven mana in a vacuum when you're looking at cards like this. You really need to look it and base it on the type of deck it's going in. You're not throwing either of these cards into your run of the mill midrange deck and trying to get there with only your normal land drops. You're going to realize that you're putting an eight drop in your deck and you need to draft/build accordingly because you want your deck to be able to reliable get to eight mana and reliably produce the necessary colors to cast your spells.
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While I think that's true in general, I still think it's unfair to say that as a blanket statement when it comes to card evaluation. In general, yeah, curving out gets harder as the game progresses, but that won't necessarily be true for all decks, especially if the deck is built with curving into 7-8 drops in mind. Looking at Bolas specifically, these decks will be including card draw to find lands, mana rocks to help ramp, counter spells and removal to stall the game. Getting to Bolas mana (either Bolas) shouldn't be a challenge for those decks and it should happen with some consistency outside of the bad draws and Magic's good old luck factor.
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It's not unfair at all when the numbers don't lie: 8 mana > 7 mana, period. A lot of things can happen by the time you get from 7 to 8 mana, like losing your mana sources, getting Bolas discarded, your opponent having counter magic up later, or the board state becoming extremely unfavorable before you reach 8 mana. God-Pharaoh can do so much work before OG Bolas can even hit the board.
I think the cumulative abilities of both OG Bolas and God-Pharaoh are fairly even. I can be convinced that either one of them can be considered better than the other especially in different scenarios, but it would only be by a hair, IMO. Is that hair worth an extra B? Not to me, and I haven't heard any convincing argument that would convince me otherwise.
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But cost aside, new Bolas has just been better. 7 damage is a ton. Your win condition is no longer tied to creatures in the red zone. It has extra abilities, and more loyalty. It can attack the opponent's hand. It has arguably the most fun, flavorful and exciting 'walker {+} ability in the game. And it has all the obvious advantages relating to the mana cost comparisons. I think it's simply the better cube card. It looked that way on paper, and it's definitely performing that way in practice.
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This allows bolas to be played where black is a splash, very common in artifact decks that use signets to fix.
The exponentially difficult mana cost 7->8 argument is more complicated when you get to the higher mana costs than traditional limited.
You have to examine the set of cards that get you to that mana cost in the format.
If it's all done via single land drops without tons of card draw, 7->8 mana is an enormous difference.
If it's in a super ramp deck with tolarian academy and multiple mana vault/coalition relic type rocks, its not THAT different..
Though it's certainly non neglible.
For that reason 11 is actually not that much different then 10 to cast in cube In most decks that want to run those cards... as you probably need some kind of broken mana source to get up to that CMC anyway.
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It's one of the things I've liked the most about new Bolas. It's a playable finisher for Grixis control decks, that aren't playing a ton of ramp but can reach 7 sources in the late game reliably. And being splashable w/ black is a big part of that.
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The +2 is powerful but utterly unreliable and slow. On average you are getting a low power thing that won't help solve your larger problems. Don't get me wrong, a 2 or 3 free mana, a free card and 2 loyalty is good but it is a slow value tool which is not why you play seven drops in cube. The +1 is great too, it will destroy slow decks. Unfortunately when you are playing seven mana planeswalkers you are the slowest deck. It doesn't win you the game, it just shuts down your opponent somewhat if for some reason they still held action... The ultimate would be great if you could use it without having to do at least 3 turns worth of plus loyalty effects. Again it is slow and again it doesn't win the game. It isn't a good problem solver even though it should be just because it is so slow and unreliable to get there. Lastly the -4, it is good, it has a bit of reach and some control over the board. It is what you want to be doing with a card like this but it is too pricey. You can't do it back to back, you leave your Bolas on 3 loyalty if you do it right away. If this were a -3 cost then this would be a whole lot more interesting, it would have enough threat level to merit its cost. Very powerful but not what you need in cubes.
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But when you can play new Bolas you still can't play OG Bolas. OG Bolas is going to take you 2 more turns to find that 8th land and by that time you've sent 14 damage to the face and won the game.
Would you play OG bolas if its cost was 4UBR, but had an additional drawback that you can't activate any of its abilities until you have 8 lands in play? (or could generate 4UBBR)
My answer would be a definite no, when I could just play new bolas. To me, the turns it takes to find the extra black mana is not worth the better abilities.
This may be true some of the time, but it won't be true all of the time. And, as I've said above, the kind of deck that wants to play an 8-drop planeswalker shouldn't have any trouble staying in the game long enough to reach eight mana. These decks have ramp to ensure they get there on time if not early and they have removal, sweepers, and other disruption to keep the opponent in check. I really just don't agree with the argument that seven is less than eight and one black mana is less than two so this new Bolas is better.
Also, and this may just be a personal note, but I don't want my finishing planeswalker to just be a fireball. Obviously seven damage is a lot and will sometimes just win you the game on the spot, but I'd rather see interaction and game play.
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I think it's true more times often than not. The thing about ramp decks is although they ramp 2-3 mana ahead, they also LOSE that much mana when they're disrupted. Being able to climb up to 8 is one thing, being able to get BACK to 8 is another.
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum and like seeing more planeswalkers close out games faster rather than durdle for value. Being able to close out games fairly quick is why Chandra, Flamecaller is such a great planeswalker.
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