A 3-mana wrath in Black? Downside is that the lands are essentially exerted for the next turn, but that 1 turn difference between [[Toxic Deluge]] and [[Damnation]] is often quite important in Cube. Seems worthy!
Not being able to untap your lands isn't as bad as it seems since this only costs 3 mana. This is potent for superfriends control and this is probably my 5th favorite black sweeper. I don't like it more than Deluge / Damnation / Languish / Expertise though, safe pass for me.
I would want to test this. A three mana conditional wrath is not unprecedented (toxic deluge), but one that kills everything no matter your life total is. Highly intrigued over here.
Also, it's funny that they won't print 4 mana wraths but print a literal 3 mana one, even if the downside is real.
And re:downside, it's pretty real in cube. You essentially are giving away your next turn in a lot of scenarios. Will this be worth it? I think only testing will tell, but I guarantee you 'it won't' will be the answer in a number of scenarios where they untap, play something, and you're left there with your thumb up your bum.
I would want to test this. A three mana conditional wrath is not unprecedented (toxic deluge), but one that kills everything no matter your life total is. Highly intrigued over here.
Also, it's funny that they won't print 4 mana wraths but print a literal 3 mana one, even if the downside is real.
They admitted awhile ago that they were printing too good of threats for the answers available, and they were working to balance it. I wouldn't be surprised if we are returning to a world of day of judgement. I think we're about far enough away from that comment that it might start getting reflected in new cards.
Interesting... Haven't really paid attention post wrath to how big of a downside the non-untap clause would be.
My guess is it's pretty serious without artifact mana fueling the cost of the spell.
Not sure if I'll test in the third black wrath slot or not...
I could see testing this over Yahenni's Expertise for a trial run. Expertise has been fine, but not amazing. A full on kill all the things card like this deserves at least a little attention.
Obviously this is good on turn 3, but on turn 8.... yuck...
I don't agree with this, I think the opposite is true. Exerting your lands during the development stage of the game hinders you more than the late game, IMO. This lets me keep counter magic up late game and I can still have 4-5 mana open next turn while 3 of my lands stay exerted.
Obviously this is good on turn 3, but on turn 8.... yuck...
I don't agree with this, I think the opposite is true. Exerting your lands during the development stage of the game hinders you more than the late game, IMO. This lets me keep counter magic up late game and I can still have 4-5 mana open next turn while 3 of my lands stay exerted.
This doesn't just keep the 3 lands you tapped to cast this tapped. It keep all your lands tapped during the next turn, regardless of how they got tapped. So if you cast this, then had 4 mana for cryptic command, all 7 lands would stay tapped the next turn
Obviously this is good on turn 3, but on turn 8.... yuck...
I don't agree with this, I think the opposite is true. Exerting your lands during the development stage of the game hinders you more than the late game, IMO. This lets me keep counter magic up late game and I can still have 4-5 mana open next turn while 3 of my lands stay exerted.
This doesn't just keep the 3 lands you tapped to cast this tapped. It keep all your lands tapped during the next turn, regardless of how they got tapped. So if you cast this, then had 4 mana for cryptic command, all 7 lands would stay tapped the next turn
Lands only stay tapped if I tapped them in the first place. If all I did on turn 8 was Bontu's Last Reckoning, I still have 5 lands for the next turn assuming I didn't do anything on my opponent's turn. Either way, you have counter magic up for at least one turn.
Lands only stay tapped if I tapped them in the first place. If all I did on turn 8 was Bontu's Last Reckoning, I still have 5 lands for the next turn assuming I didn't do anything on my opponent's turn. Either way, you have counter magic up for at least one turn.
Either way you are forced to be shields down at some point. I will test this, as I think this is one of those cards that is extremely hard to evaluate without data. What I do know, though, is that the way control decks often play is wrath -> powerful 5- or 4-drop to pull ahead of aggro decks. This card makes that play not really possible. It also doesn't let you at 6 or 5 mana go wrath -> leave up countermagic, then drop a big finisher on the following turn. I think this is a very real drawback that will eventually lead to this card not making it in a lot of lists.
I think this is better in power cube as there are more good mana rocks, which you can use to cast this and not have so many lands stay untapped. I might test in place of the expertise.
Seems pretty good to me. Being able to sweep the board on t3 can help control decks get to the late game where they can take over.
However, I think there are enough wrath effects for me at 450 (Damnation, Deluge, Languish) that I don't think I want this. People with larger cubes might be able to find room for this though.
I might give it a test run, but at the moment, I'm not optimistic. I'd rather have Toxic Deluge on turn 3, or any of the turn 4 sweepers. I don't see this displacing any of those cards.
This seems at least testable to me. The drawback is very real, but an unconditional 3-mana Day of Judgment is nothing to scoff at. I think it'll be pretty decent.
This is interesting. Its almost a wrath with a worse version of echo. You can't choose to not pay the echo and if you tap down before you untap, you are paying a larger echo. For a one mana discount. It kind of reminds me of savor the moment a little? I'm curious to hear how it goes in testing but I am not giving this the benefit of the doubt to try it myself.
I don't trust this card one bit. Cube is full of cards designed to put you miles ahead if you untap with them, planeswalkers first and foremost. If you cast this on curve and your opponent plays something like, say, Goblin Rabblemaster, you're just miles behind.
What's worse is that it rewards your opponent for playing around it. Their sandbagged creature goes from easy pickings to something that is almost guaranteed a free attack. I can imagine constructed decks where this has applications, but not in cube world.
I expect that this card will end up being rejected by most cubes. Everyone thinks Exhaustion is nothing until it happens to them. Echo is a steep price, and this is a little worse. I predict Toxic Deluge will remain the dominant three mana choice.
Nevertheless, I love this card (way more than the two planeswakers). This seems perfect for my cube. It's exactly the right combination of insanely powerful and difficult to use correctly.
I predict Toxic Deluge will remain the dominant three mana choice.
Nobody is contesting this. Deluge is the best sweeper of all time. But Toxic Deluge being better doesn't prevent this from also being good. Black has 1 card that unconditionally kills all creatures that costs less than 5 mana. I'm happy to at least test a second. Drawback is significant, but there are work-arounds. There's also quite a few instances where costing 3 mana is a really big deal. Looking forward to testing it out.
T3, you're opening yourself up for a 4-drop to both be played and get an attack in before you can even start responding.
T8, your 3-mana wrath is actually costing you 11 mana or more.
A 3-mana wrath in Black? Downside is that the lands are essentially exerted for the next turn, but that 1 turn difference between [[Toxic Deluge]] and [[Damnation]] is often quite important in Cube. Seems worthy!
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Also, it's funny that they won't print 4 mana wraths but print a literal 3 mana one, even if the downside is real.
And re:downside, it's pretty real in cube. You essentially are giving away your next turn in a lot of scenarios. Will this be worth it? I think only testing will tell, but I guarantee you 'it won't' will be the answer in a number of scenarios where they untap, play something, and you're left there with your thumb up your bum.
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They admitted awhile ago that they were printing too good of threats for the answers available, and they were working to balance it. I wouldn't be surprised if we are returning to a world of day of judgement. I think we're about far enough away from that comment that it might start getting reflected in new cards.
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My guess is it's pretty serious without artifact mana fueling the cost of the spell.
Not sure if I'll test in the third black wrath slot or not...
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I don't agree with this, I think the opposite is true. Exerting your lands during the development stage of the game hinders you more than the late game, IMO. This lets me keep counter magic up late game and I can still have 4-5 mana open next turn while 3 of my lands stay exerted.
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Lands only stay tapped if I tapped them in the first place. If all I did on turn 8 was Bontu's Last Reckoning, I still have 5 lands for the next turn assuming I didn't do anything on my opponent's turn. Either way, you have counter magic up for at least one turn.
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Either way you are forced to be shields down at some point. I will test this, as I think this is one of those cards that is extremely hard to evaluate without data. What I do know, though, is that the way control decks often play is wrath -> powerful 5- or 4-drop to pull ahead of aggro decks. This card makes that play not really possible. It also doesn't let you at 6 or 5 mana go wrath -> leave up countermagic, then drop a big finisher on the following turn. I think this is a very real drawback that will eventually lead to this card not making it in a lot of lists.
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I don't think it will be good enough unfortunately.
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However, I think there are enough wrath effects for me at 450 (Damnation, Deluge, Languish) that I don't think I want this. People with larger cubes might be able to find room for this though.
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Interesting but I am not adding it.
What's worse is that it rewards your opponent for playing around it. Their sandbagged creature goes from easy pickings to something that is almost guaranteed a free attack. I can imagine constructed decks where this has applications, but not in cube world.
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Nevertheless, I love this card (way more than the two planeswakers). This seems perfect for my cube. It's exactly the right combination of insanely powerful and difficult to use correctly.
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Nobody is contesting this. Deluge is the best sweeper of all time. But Toxic Deluge being better doesn't prevent this from also being good. Black has 1 card that unconditionally kills all creatures that costs less than 5 mana. I'm happy to at least test a second. Drawback is significant, but there are work-arounds. There's also quite a few instances where costing 3 mana is a really big deal. Looking forward to testing it out.
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T3, you're opening yourself up for a 4-drop to both be played and get an attack in before you can even start responding.
T8, your 3-mana wrath is actually costing you 11 mana or more.
What? It's, like, the main point here and why no one is auto-slamming this into their cube.
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