Stronger Venser effect // Timetwister that's twice as expensive seems interesting, especially for counterburn / Spells Matter. Probably too narrow, but this is definitely one of the more interesting Aftermath carda
This is an interesting one. I don't think it gets there because the modes are a little bit expensive, like you can't really take advantage of a 6 mana draw seven the way you want to most of the time, but it's a sweet design.
I like this card, and I'll play it if I get it just to see if it works. Grasp of Phantoms has played pretty well in my cube, and this is a decent step up. The two halves of the card are very different, and don't necessarily relate to one another aside from the obvious interaction of shuffling the card away. Not every deck necessarily wants a Timetwister effect, but every deck can use the front side, making this an interesting choice. As usual, however, I doubt this makes the cut for small cubes. If you're playing Venser, you could test this over it for funsies.
Why is everyone so "meh" on this card? It can get rid of any spell or any nonland permanent for four mana, at instant speed, with only one colored mana commitment. This is a blue Vindicate for just one more mana, in a color that usually needs help to deal with a problem artifact/enchantment/planeswalker. The aftermath portion isn't all that useful, but it doesn't have to be: Commit by itself is powerful and insanely flexible.
It seems substantially better than Venser, Shaper Savant. I can't speak to smaller cubes, but I've rarely seen a larger one that doesn't have Venser on its list. So at a bare minimum, you get a card that's easier to cast and costs the opponent a card, where Venser doesn't. All you lose is a 2/2 body, which is fine for chump-blocking or recursion shenanigans, but probably isn't worth as much as costing your opponent a card.
And looking at my cube list, there are a lot of cards that I'm happy to remove before looking at cutting Venser.
It seems substantially better than Venser, Shaper Savant. I can't speak to smaller cubes, but I've rarely seen a larger one that doesn't have Venser on its list. So at a bare minimum, you get a card that's easier to cast and costs the opponent a card, where Venser doesn't. All you lose is a 2/2 body, which is fine for chump-blocking or recursion shenanigans, but probably isn't worth as much as costing your opponent a card.
And looking at my cube list, there are a lot of cards that I'm happy to remove before looking at cutting Venser.
The effect is stronger than Venser, but Venser is by far the better card. Venser being a creature means there's infinitely more ways to abuse the effect, and Venser definitely has one of the more abusive ETB triggers.
I don't know about substantially better, Venser is a disgusting card. Crystal Sharding or recurring a Venser can shut down a game, that type of ceiling is a lot better than this IMO. Recursion shenanigans are a lot better in practice than what you are giving them credit for, and having the effect on a creature is huge.
That's all well and good, when you come up with the recursive card and get to pair it with Venser. That's not going to happen as often as having Venser alone, either on a per-game or per-draft basis. In a one-use scenario, I'd much rather have what this card does.
Have you never played U/x control in cube and had an opponent resolve a strong artifact/enchantment/PW on you when you don't have countermagic up and thought "well, that'll probably just kill me"? It's nuts to have a card that can get rid of any of those things, while ALSO being an instant Grasp of Phantasms, while ALSO being a hard counter, all for just four mana. This is Unexpectedly Absent, but easier to cast, and BLUE. This is Faith's Fetters, but not susceptible to being removed, and instant speed, and BLUE. This solves a huge array of issues that blue usually has to pair with other colors to deal with, and is as splashable as it gets.
Stand alone, this doesn't compare well to other blue spells like JTMS / Fact or Fiction / Cryptic Command. Splashability is nice, Unexpectedly Absent is great because you can hit any non-land permanent for 2 mana at instant speed.
Sure, there's scenarios where this is better than Venser, but there are wayyy more scenarios where Venser >>> this. There's a plethora of ways to abuse Venser. Regardless, it's the Aftermath half of this card that needs to be critiqued : /
I agree that the effect is powerful. I do think Venser is better, since the creature is valuable for more than just abuse (simply trading the body away with an attacker and bouncing something else is good). It can also carry Swords if the need arises, plays great in tempo shells, and can simply attack. Having a creature body around is just useful.
This reminds me a bit of Unexpectedly Absent. Worse in tempo, but arguably better in control because if the powerlevel it has as a reactive card.
One of the many, many cards in AKH that will likely play better than it looks on paper.
Gabrosin makes a good case for the front side of the card, and the Aftermath side is really just providing an incidental bonus and I wouldn't mull on it for too long. Venser being a creature is advantageous for many interactions, but blue has its fair share of interactions with instant/sorcery too. I would not cut Venser for it but it seems potentially decent.
It's essentially a 1WWUnexpectedly Absent for 3U that can also serve as a pseudo-Memory Lapse ...and has a 6cc flashback Timetwister strapped to it. I was looking closely at this card before, but Gabrosin certainly gave a good sales pitch.
I remember when we were excited by Imprisoned in the Moon. Got cut pretty quickly for most of us. This is more expensive but way more flexible, instant speed, also a counterspell, and has a non-negligable back half that seems fun. No idea where I'd make a cut, though. This is one a few that I'm eager to hear testing results on.
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Like, if you're gonna just compare it to JTMS/FoF/Cryptic, then sure. Those are the very best of the best. This might not have a spot in a 360 cube. I'm running at 720 so I can pick out 20-25 blue cards, out of 90, that I'd cut to put this in. I'm pretty sure it should make a 540 cut as well.
If you manage to use Venser's leftover body to trade with another thing, then you've effectively achieved what this card already did, which is cost your opponent a card. Venser put the thing it bounced right back in their hand (unless you got to hit a token with it, of course, or caught a flashback spell or something). The card this stopped is effectively gone, as they have to draw it again, even if that's only a couple turns away. I agree that Venser can carry a Sword and swing for 2 into an empty board and all sorts of nice things, and there are decks that will want that. And he should remain in your cube, almost certainly. But there's also plenty of things he CAN'T do that this card does, easily.
All of the negative things I feel about Imprisoned in the Moon, the things that left me frustrated when it didn't seem to be doing enough to help me win... this shares none of those drawbacks. Imprisoned is sorcery speed, this is instant. Imprisoned is susceptible to being removed, this isn't. Imprisoned gave them free ramp, this doesn't. Imprisoned can't hit artifacts or enchantments, this can. (And Imprisoned is still on my 720 list, at least for now.)
Like, if you're gonna just compare it to JTMS/FoF/Cryptic, then sure. Those are the very best of the best. This might not have a spot in a 360 cube. I'm running at 720 so I can pick out 20-25 blue cards, out of 90, that I'd cut to put this in. I'm pretty sure it should make a 540 cut as well.
If you manage to use Venser's leftover body to trade with another thing, then you've effectively achieved what this card already did, which is cost your opponent a card. Venser put the thing it bounced right back in their hand (unless you got to hit a token with it, of course, or caught a flashback spell or something). The card this stopped is effectively gone, as they have to draw it again, even if that's only a couple turns away. I agree that Venser can carry a Sword and swing for 2 into an empty board and all sorts of nice things, and there are decks that will want that. And he should remain in your cube, almost certainly. But there's also plenty of things he CAN'T do that this card does, easily.
All of the negative things I feel about Imprisoned in the Moon, the things that left me frustrated when it didn't seem to be doing enough to help me win... this shares none of those drawbacks. Imprisoned is sorcery speed, this is instant. Imprisoned is susceptible to being removed, this isn't. Imprisoned gave them free ramp, this doesn't. Imprisoned can't hit artifacts or enchantments, this can. (And Imprisoned is still on my 720 list, at least for now.)
You make a great case. I liked imprisoned more than the average cuber but it usually felt worse than splashing for real removal that was an instant or sorcery. Venser has only ever been ok for me. 4 mana is not what I want to spend on a tempo counter and I don't supper blink as much as many others. You have convinced me to test this even though I think it will be too clunky for the spells decks I so enjoy.
Like, if you're gonna just compare it to JTMS/FoF/Cryptic, then sure. Those are the very best of the best. This might not have a spot in a 360 cube. I'm running at 720 so I can pick out 20-25 blue cards, out of 90, that I'd cut to put this in. I'm pretty sure it should make a 540 cut as well.
If you manage to use Venser's leftover body to trade with another thing, then you've effectively achieved what this card already did, which is cost your opponent a card. Venser put the thing it bounced right back in their hand (unless you got to hit a token with it, of course, or caught a flashback spell or something). The card this stopped is effectively gone, as they have to draw it again, even if that's only a couple turns away. I agree that Venser can carry a Sword and swing for 2 into an empty board and all sorts of nice things, and there are decks that will want that. And he should remain in your cube, almost certainly. But there's also plenty of things he CAN'T do that this card does, easily.
All of the negative things I feel about Imprisoned in the Moon, the things that left me frustrated when it didn't seem to be doing enough to help me win... this shares none of those drawbacks. Imprisoned is sorcery speed, this is instant. Imprisoned is susceptible to being removed, this isn't. Imprisoned gave them free ramp, this doesn't. Imprisoned can't hit artifacts or enchantments, this can. (And Imprisoned is still on my 720 list, at least for now.)
You make a great case for the card. Out of curiosity, what are the cards you consider cutting for this in your cube? I also run 720, but I love Imprisoned in the Moon and struggle to find a cut. Maybe Baral's Expertise, but I'd like to give it a bit more testing time before dismissing it.
Right now I have Scatter to the Winds marked to come out, though I'm also looking at Condescend. I too want to give Baral's Expertise some more time before thinking about removing it. I might also put this in over Time Spiral or Timetwister, more likely the latter; in my experience it's hard to find a deck that really wants to play these cards. Control decks hate to refill the opponent's hand, aggro decks don't want to get to six mana for the "free" Time Spiral, and my cube has always struggled to produce a credible U/x aggro deck that's not U/R, which is the only place I've seen Timetwister actually make a decklist.
I'm probably going to test this and every other instant (especially with cycling) to try and push Torrential Gearhulk more alongside other spells matters cards such as Thing in the Ice / Baral, Chief of Compliance. As long as one half of a split / aftermath card is an instant, Torrential Gearhulk's ability allows you to pick either half to cast. This means you're able to cast the draw 7 half during your opponent's end step thanks to Gearhulk having flash. I'm pretty excited for this interaction since this is one of the bigger instants that Gearhulk can "flashback," although it's going to be a headache explaining the rulings every time.
I'm probably going to test this and every other instant (especially with cycling) to try and push Torrential Gearhulk more alongside other spells matters cards such as Thing in the Ice / Baral, Chief of Compliance. As long as one half of a split / aftermath card is an instant, Torrential Gearhulk's ability allows you to pick either half to cast. This means you're able to cast the draw 7 half during your opponent's end step thanks to Gearhulk having flash. I'm pretty excited for this interaction since this is one of the bigger instants that Gearhulk can "flashback," although it's going to be a headache explaining the rulings every time.
Um, this is awesome. We love the spells deck here, and I've been trying to find room for Torrential Gearhulk for a while. Can't cut Aetherling, although it's pretty rare that a traditional draw-go deck sees play. Hm! These are the sort of sweet interactions cube is all about. I have to think on this now.
What's everyone thinking of cutting to test this out?
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At 450, I don't think there's anything in blue I'd cut for this. This is clearly a good card, but I think it's for 720+ sized cubes. I can't imagine cutting Twister or Spiral for it.
At 450, I don't think there's anything in blue I'd cut for this. This is clearly a good card, but I think it's for 720+ sized cubes. I can't imagine cutting Twister or Spiral for it.
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Yeah, I can barely make room for this at 540 unpowered, no way this would make the cut for me in anything smaller.
I think I do like this more than Imprisoned in the Moon. Unsubstantiate effects are not just rare, but unique effects in blue that can deal with threats both pro-actively on the stack and retroactively once they're actually in play. This is a nice middle ground for Imprisoned in the Moon / Baral's Expertise. Being able to deal with planeswalkers on the stack before they start providing value is a nice upside compared to Imprisoned in the Moon, and the ability to hit artifacts / enchantments is an acceptable alternative to hitting manlands. Commit // Memory is a nice alternative to Baral's Expertise by being more versatile as a cheaper spell that's also an instant, and can hit more things.
Ugh, that Torrential Gearhulk exploit is one of those bizarre and unintuitive rules interactions that I could go without. It is certainly a powerful interaction, but most players won't realize that this would work. I am happy that Wizards recently changed the way split cards work in regards to how their mana cost is counted. But this exploit here is pretty much more of that problem.
Stronger Venser effect // Timetwister that's twice as expensive seems interesting, especially for counterburn / Spells Matter. Probably too narrow, but this is definitely one of the more interesting Aftermath carda
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And looking at my cube list, there are a lot of cards that I'm happy to remove before looking at cutting Venser.
The effect is stronger than Venser, but Venser is by far the better card. Venser being a creature means there's infinitely more ways to abuse the effect, and Venser definitely has one of the more abusive ETB triggers.
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Have you never played U/x control in cube and had an opponent resolve a strong artifact/enchantment/PW on you when you don't have countermagic up and thought "well, that'll probably just kill me"? It's nuts to have a card that can get rid of any of those things, while ALSO being an instant Grasp of Phantasms, while ALSO being a hard counter, all for just four mana. This is Unexpectedly Absent, but easier to cast, and BLUE. This is Faith's Fetters, but not susceptible to being removed, and instant speed, and BLUE. This solves a huge array of issues that blue usually has to pair with other colors to deal with, and is as splashable as it gets.
Sure, there's scenarios where this is better than Venser, but there are wayyy more scenarios where Venser >>> this. There's a plethora of ways to abuse Venser. Regardless, it's the Aftermath half of this card that needs to be critiqued : /
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This reminds me a bit of Unexpectedly Absent. Worse in tempo, but arguably better in control because if the powerlevel it has as a reactive card.
One of the many, many cards in AKH that will likely play better than it looks on paper.
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If you manage to use Venser's leftover body to trade with another thing, then you've effectively achieved what this card already did, which is cost your opponent a card. Venser put the thing it bounced right back in their hand (unless you got to hit a token with it, of course, or caught a flashback spell or something). The card this stopped is effectively gone, as they have to draw it again, even if that's only a couple turns away. I agree that Venser can carry a Sword and swing for 2 into an empty board and all sorts of nice things, and there are decks that will want that. And he should remain in your cube, almost certainly. But there's also plenty of things he CAN'T do that this card does, easily.
All of the negative things I feel about Imprisoned in the Moon, the things that left me frustrated when it didn't seem to be doing enough to help me win... this shares none of those drawbacks. Imprisoned is sorcery speed, this is instant. Imprisoned is susceptible to being removed, this isn't. Imprisoned gave them free ramp, this doesn't. Imprisoned can't hit artifacts or enchantments, this can. (And Imprisoned is still on my 720 list, at least for now.)
You make a great case. I liked imprisoned more than the average cuber but it usually felt worse than splashing for real removal that was an instant or sorcery. Venser has only ever been ok for me. 4 mana is not what I want to spend on a tempo counter and I don't supper blink as much as many others. You have convinced me to test this even though I think it will be too clunky for the spells decks I so enjoy.
You make a great case for the card. Out of curiosity, what are the cards you consider cutting for this in your cube? I also run 720, but I love Imprisoned in the Moon and struggle to find a cut. Maybe Baral's Expertise, but I'd like to give it a bit more testing time before dismissing it.
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Um, this is awesome. We love the spells deck here, and I've been trying to find room for Torrential Gearhulk for a while. Can't cut Aetherling, although it's pretty rare that a traditional draw-go deck sees play. Hm! These are the sort of sweet interactions cube is all about. I have to think on this now.
What's everyone thinking of cutting to test this out?
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Yeah, I can barely make room for this at 540 unpowered, no way this would make the cut for me in anything smaller.
I think I do like this more than Imprisoned in the Moon. Unsubstantiate effects are not just rare, but unique effects in blue that can deal with threats both pro-actively on the stack and retroactively once they're actually in play. This is a nice middle ground for Imprisoned in the Moon / Baral's Expertise. Being able to deal with planeswalkers on the stack before they start providing value is a nice upside compared to Imprisoned in the Moon, and the ability to hit artifacts / enchantments is an acceptable alternative to hitting manlands. Commit // Memory is a nice alternative to Baral's Expertise by being more versatile as a cheaper spell that's also an instant, and can hit more things.
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Imprisoned in the Moon would be a good cut for this card. I can't fathom how people are considering cutting Baral's Expertise though.
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