For as much as this dies to black and white removal, I think that might be a bit of an overrated con for this card. Flash mitigates a LOT of the white removal, and cube decks are required to tap out all the time which means Samut will be landing on a lot of boards and remaining there when you are untapping on your turn.
While I am still not sure how good this is, there are so many board states where the opponent doesn't have the answer either due to them having to tap out or just straight-up not having it where this guy could take over. Samut is certainly not invulnerable, but requiring them to have path/swords/doomblades seems like a good enough cost of entry to at least test it.
I think the "Fires" effect gets exponentially less valuable the higher the casting cost of the card is. You're simply not getting enough of a return for the investment to be worth it. In our environment, it is essential to get that "Fires" effect online as soon as possible so that your 4's and 5's are coming in with haste. There are definitely other uses mid/late game to the haste effect (ie. Surrak TnN'd in with a fatty) but for the most part you're looking to be setting up on turn 2 or 3 latest so you're getting your damage in before control gets to stabilize (oftentimes just before they're able to stabilize). Getting a hasty Polukranos/Natural Order followed by a hasty Kalonian Hydra/Deranged Hermit on curve is how Fires decks actually win.
I'd agree with you if this also didn't have haste itself alongside being able to deal 6 damage. Having flash is huge upsidenn for a fires effect. Most haste enablers aren't on bodies that can attack themselves.
Yes, it costs 5, which is a lot, but flash goes a long way to making it much more flexible.
Outside of blue counterspells/bounce, which I'll ignore for now (despite it being lazy and somewhat unfair to the discussion), I'm counting...10 instant-speed cards that can take this out if it's flashed in. This makes me feel that a fair amount of the time it should be active and let you get good value out of her. That being said, doing so means you're not casting another guy on the turn you cast her, but that's a separate discussion point. It does let you take a turn off to flip Huntmaster of the Fells if that's you're jam, though!
I think the "Fires" effect gets exponentially less valuable the higher the casting cost of the card is. You're simply not getting enough of a return for the investment to be worth it. In our environment, it is essential to get that "Fires" effect online as soon as possible so that your 4's and 5's are coming in with haste. There are definitely other uses mid/late game to the haste effect (ie. Surrak TnN'd in with a fatty) but for the most part you're looking to be setting up on turn 2 or 3 latest so you're getting your damage in before control gets to stabilize (oftentimes just before they're able to stabilize). Getting a hasty Polukranos/Natural Order followed by a hasty Kalonian Hydra/Deranged Hermit on curve is how Fires decks actually win.
I'd agree with you if this also didn't have haste itself alongside being able to deal 6 damage. Having flash is huge upsidenn for a fires effect. Most haste enablers aren't on bodies that can attack themselves.
I hope it turns out to be an awesome creature, being useful in multiple boardstates thanks to all the keywords. I can definitely get with that. My comment is just addressing evaluating this card as a Fires archetype enabler... Unless we're talking about other uses akin to the Surrak/Tooth and Nail example I mentioned. In that way I agree it's flexible and can lead to really explosive plays. We've had very successful cheaty decks that included Fires/Sarkhan Vol/Surrak and I can see this guy fitting well there.
Yeah, the ceiling of this card is hard to ignore. Forcing your opponent to have an instant speed answer will probably work out in your favor more often than not.
Plus there's almost nothing flashing in red if not nothing at all, and the green flash cards are I think for the most part borderline cubeable. The same way Mana Tithe is more valuable in a non-blue deck, a creature like this is probably more effective in a color combination that isn't doing a lot of 5 mana EOT shuh-nay-nays.
This card is sick. I don't know what to cut for it, but it basically asks your opponent "do you have a removal?" and if not, you are going to win. Flash on a GR creature narrows the answers to that question.
Edit: Also, this creature reminds me of Archangel Avacyn, and I learned that cheap, big creatures with flash are way better in cube than people gives them credit for.
Yeah, I don't really think that "dies to removal" makes this uncubeable - flash AND haste are a powerful combination. Will test it. I always wanted to have some sort of Fires support, but the namesake card is extremely lackluster, as were the likes of Hammer of Purphoros. With this plus Sarkhan Vol, the archetype might have just enough support without adding cards that are kinda terrible on their own.
A new Naya general for EDH cube. Huh. It's hard to pass it up because it's in the three main colors of my voltron archetype. It feels bad cutting Marath, but the other two options (Mayael and Gahiji) are too important to their archetypes. (Sneak and Show and Tokens)
I'm excited, but Marath will be missed.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
"5 mana creature that Dies to removal, no evasion"
IS a legitimate knock on the card and it's bad analysis think otherwise.
Raw power CAN make up for this legitimate draw back. obviously 20/20 haste for 5 mana is a messed up magic card despite it "dying to removal"
But the point remains the card must be game warping or close to game ending when it lives to be "Good".
Being chumpable AND not presenting near lethal damage by itself unopposed gives opponent time to draw a spell that makes a 5 mana investment cost heavy.
It's very powerful, and possibly
Overcomes the barrier set by its drawbacks.
But dismissing its significant drawbacks is silly
"5 mana creature that Dies to removal, no evasion"
IS a legitimate knock on the card and it's bad analysis think otherwise.
Raw power CAN make up for this legitimate draw back. obviously 20/20 haste for 5 mana is a messed up magic card despite it "dying to removal"
But the point remains the card must be game warping or close to game ending when it lives to be "Good".
Being chumpable AND not presenting near lethal damage by itself unopposed gives opponent time to draw a spell that makes a 5 mana investment cost heavy.
It's very powerful, and possibly
Overcomes the barrier set by its drawbacks.
But dismissing its significant drawbacks is silly
Sure, Samut lacks evasion, but I fail to see any "significant" drawbacks to this card.
Flash lets Samut and anything you're curving out to do a significant amount of work before they're able to be hit by sorceries since she's both a surprise combat trick and can alpha strike out of nowhere. Being bolt proof means you need very specific answers to hit Samut at instant speed.
it's a 5 mana card that has no evasion, can't attack through any of the large creatures in cube and loses signifcant mana efficiency to most removal spells.
It's not as bad as it can possibly be as the flash/haste gives it a turn to do damage before sorcery speed removal hits it. But unlike a card like thundermaw hellkite or hell rider etc, all it takes is a single token for that turn to be of negligible value.
maybe you are just nitpicking the definition of drawback.
But "dies to doom blade without value" is such a huge deal for a 5 mana creature , that I label it as drawback.
Again, I'm not saying this creature isn't good. It just has a very steep hill to climb to offset the doom blade
Clause.
it's a 5 mana card that has no evasion, can't attack through any of the large creatures in cube and loses signifcant mana efficiency to most removal spells.
It's not as bad as it can possibly be as the flash/haste gives it a turn to do damage before sorcery speed removal hits it. But unlike a card like thundermaw hellkite or hell rider etc, all it takes is a single token for that turn to be of negligible value.
maybe you are just nitpicking the definition of drawback.
But "dies to doom blade without value" is such a huge deal for a 5 mana creature , that I label it as drawback.
There's always exceptions to this rule: Baneslayer Angel / Kalonian Hydra come to mind. Samut passes the Vindicate test with flash + haste, and being bolt proof means you essentially need a Plow / Doom Blade variant to deal with Samut at instant speed.
Intriguing enough to give it a whirl, certainly. While the ceiling is obviously high, I'm more interested in the average case scenario. There's a middle ground between blowouts with a Titan and eating a Doom Blade.
How much removal are you guys running that y'all seem to always have a 1 or 2 mana instant speed removal card in your hand (with mana to play it) for every dangerous threat that gets played against you? It's weird to me.
This card does a lot for 5 mana. It's technically 3 colors though. Do Naya decks get to 5 mana usually? Mine don't. And the fires effect is less good on something this expensive outside top end heavy decks. Still doesn't sound like a Naya deck people build in my group. So I don't know where this card fits archetype wise. It's clearly powerful enough though if a deck exists for it. It's $10, so probably going to pass just for that reason alone unless people report it being really great.
Removal's not the only issue. I don't have any problem running a big ball of stats (Baneslayer Angel comes to mind) but is it something that the guild needs? Gold slots are at a premium, and in both Red and Green there are already cards that hit just as hard, provide a high level of value, and have much more accessible casting costs than Samut.
Why are people comparing this to Baneslayer?? What about Samut feels like it fits in a low creature count deck? This card wants a deck with a bunch of creatures to get the most out of the fires/untap effect. Assuming such a deck comes together and they still have removal for your 5 drop after the 5 creatures you dropped before this, good on them I suppose. Just doesn't strike me as super realistic (or a hurdle you really should be trying to clear).
Control cards (like Baneslayer) need to pass removal tests because your opponent won't have a lot of targets. So they will likely have something when you drop your finisher. Aggro/midrange toppers in creature decks have fewer problems with removal because there will be less in your opponents hand at that point of the game.
But maybe I'm just not understanding how people are going to play Samut (maybe this is a finisher/combo piece in a low creature control shell???). I'm just not seeing it though.
I've given up arguing my point as , but switching gears, I think the best archetype for this guy is a eureka/tooth and nail deck that hybrids with some midrange beaters.
I don't buy into the 'dies to removal' assessment of creatures and I think the Flash on this guy will be heaps of fun. Timing your run and perhaps coaxing your opponent (who obviously has a grip full of 1 and 2 mana removal spells) to perhaps tap out for some reason and dropping this EOT into something else seems great.
Don't know if I will play it myself but think this card is awesome.
Gruul decks here are mainly ramp, and the 4 mana curve issue is real. This will be getting its time in the sun in my cube. It passes the Vindicate test in two different ways, it has 4 toughness and it can play both offense and defense. It can kill planeswalkers by surprise. It even has uses with Natural Order/ Eureka. And who knows, one day the white ability might be used.
Gruul decks generally prefer creatures to planeswalkers for synergy, with Green Sun's Zenith, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle, Fauna Shaman, Natural Order etc. so I'll test this instead of Xenagos PW.
While I am still not sure how good this is, there are so many board states where the opponent doesn't have the answer either due to them having to tap out or just straight-up not having it where this guy could take over. Samut is certainly not invulnerable, but requiring them to have path/swords/doomblades seems like a good enough cost of entry to at least test it.
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I'd agree with you if this also didn't have haste itself alongside being able to deal 6 damage. Having flash is huge upsidenn for a fires effect. Most haste enablers aren't on bodies that can attack themselves.
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Outside of blue counterspells/bounce, which I'll ignore for now (despite it being lazy and somewhat unfair to the discussion), I'm counting...10 instant-speed cards that can take this out if it's flashed in. This makes me feel that a fair amount of the time it should be active and let you get good value out of her. That being said, doing so means you're not casting another guy on the turn you cast her, but that's a separate discussion point. It does let you take a turn off to flip Huntmaster of the Fells if that's you're jam, though!
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Deranged Hermit / Precursor Golem = 15 damage
Kalonian Hydra = 14 damage
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My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Yeah, the ceiling of this card is hard to ignore. Forcing your opponent to have an instant speed answer will probably work out in your favor more often than not.
Plus there's almost nothing flashing in red if not nothing at all, and the green flash cards are I think for the most part borderline cubeable. The same way Mana Tithe is more valuable in a non-blue deck, a creature like this is probably more effective in a color combination that isn't doing a lot of 5 mana EOT shuh-nay-nays.
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Edit: Also, this creature reminds me of Archangel Avacyn, and I learned that cheap, big creatures with flash are way better in cube than people gives them credit for.
I'm excited, but Marath will be missed.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
IS a legitimate knock on the card and it's bad analysis think otherwise.
Raw power CAN make up for this legitimate draw back. obviously 20/20 haste for 5 mana is a messed up magic card despite it "dying to removal"
But the point remains the card must be game warping or close to game ending when it lives to be "Good".
Being chumpable AND not presenting near lethal damage by itself unopposed gives opponent time to draw a spell that makes a 5 mana investment cost heavy.
It's very powerful, and possibly
Overcomes the barrier set by its drawbacks.
But dismissing its significant drawbacks is silly
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Sure, Samut lacks evasion, but I fail to see any "significant" drawbacks to this card.
Flash lets Samut and anything you're curving out to do a significant amount of work before they're able to be hit by sorceries since she's both a surprise combat trick and can alpha strike out of nowhere. Being bolt proof means you need very specific answers to hit Samut at instant speed.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
It's not as bad as it can possibly be as the flash/haste gives it a turn to do damage before sorcery speed removal hits it. But unlike a card like thundermaw hellkite or hell rider etc, all it takes is a single token for that turn to be of negligible value.
maybe you are just nitpicking the definition of drawback.
But "dies to doom blade without value" is such a huge deal for a 5 mana creature , that I label it as drawback.
Again, I'm not saying this creature isn't good. It just has a very steep hill to climb to offset the doom blade
Clause.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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There's always exceptions to this rule: Baneslayer Angel / Kalonian Hydra come to mind. Samut passes the Vindicate test with flash + haste, and being bolt proof means you essentially need a Plow / Doom Blade variant to deal with Samut at instant speed.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
However, they are two of the strongest. kalonian hydra is no where close to inclusion for me and I recently cut baneslayer.
Again, I said it was a significant drawback. Drawbacks and advantages aren't mutually exclusive on a card.
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This card does a lot for 5 mana. It's technically 3 colors though. Do Naya decks get to 5 mana usually? Mine don't. And the fires effect is less good on something this expensive outside top end heavy decks. Still doesn't sound like a Naya deck people build in my group. So I don't know where this card fits archetype wise. It's clearly powerful enough though if a deck exists for it. It's $10, so probably going to pass just for that reason alone unless people report it being really great.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Check out the Cube Discord channel here
Control cards (like Baneslayer) need to pass removal tests because your opponent won't have a lot of targets. So they will likely have something when you drop your finisher. Aggro/midrange toppers in creature decks have fewer problems with removal because there will be less in your opponents hand at that point of the game.
But maybe I'm just not understanding how people are going to play Samut (maybe this is a finisher/combo piece in a low creature control shell???). I'm just not seeing it though.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
IE inferno titan, kalonian hydra, verdurous gearhulk.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Don't know if I will play it myself but think this card is awesome.
Modern: Jund
Gruul decks generally prefer creatures to planeswalkers for synergy, with Green Sun's Zenith, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle, Fauna Shaman, Natural Order etc. so I'll test this instead of Xenagos PW.
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