Probably won't be, but the hill giant body is slightly relevant. Keeps tempo up more than spending that turn on a 1/1. Both will probably eat a removal spell before they do any serious damage, but Piper is more vulnerable.
Probably won't be, but the hill giant body is slightly relevant. Keeps tempo up more than spending that turn on a 1/1. Both will probably eat a removal spell before they do any serious damage, but Piper is more vulnerable.
I think the piper is better. Like most creatures, they're both vulnerable to removal but the champion has to enter combat to trigger the ability while the piper can just sit back and do its thing.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand the hits keep coming. Is it just me or is this the most absurd power level sets we've seen in a LONG time? Vizier and even the new uncommon (Oketra's Attendant) could be considered, as well as both of the new colorless lands. It's just stupid! The ramp spell (harvest season) looks like a very powerful card too, but not sure it's a cube consideration. Either way, I'm really happy to see all these pushed cards, what a gift to people who enjoy testing things in a cube environment!
Unlike most people on this forum, I generally add cards as I open them, rather than ordering them when they come out, so I never plan what rares and mythics I'm going to add, but I definitely plan on adding commons and uncommons, as I open most of them, or can acquire them pretty easily. (I still haven't managed to get my hands on a Filigree Familiar for some reason...)
Just on the basis of commons and uncommons, there are a ton of cards I'm interested in adding from this set,and loads of the rares are auto-includes. This set honestly does seem really damn good. It feels odd to jump on the love train, but gods, it feels so much better than jumping on the hate train. I hated that I hated BFZ block, and it feels nice to be optimistic.
Definite test cards for me are
Plus a ton of rares and mythics based on what I get. The bicycle lands are of particular interest to me, and I might order them when they get cheap. Since my cube is so big, my testing cycle is a lot slower than most of yours. Cards go in, and are pulled out one at a time for not performing. It's often quite a while after a card is added before we actually get to see it in an appropriate deck.
I haven't done this for a few (several) sets, but we mucked around with Rhonas and Hazoret and Harsh Mentor in a Gruul midrange/good-stuff pile. Meant to mock up Samut too, but I don't have a slot for her so didn't bother. Anyway, first impressions.
I was pretty bullish on Haz originally, in fact I kind of thought it sucks, but I like the card a lot more in paper than I do in theory. The discard outlet is a welcome source of inevitability, recalling very strongly a more flexible and pricy Molten Vortex when I ran that for 6-9 months or so. What was surprising was that she represented decent value even when not being immediately available to attack, owing to having too many cards in hand when he hit the table. She is still a 5/4 indestructible after all. Try pretending it doesn't have haste, and it's still a good creature. To be fair, my deck wasn't optimally built to take advantage of the haste, with too few good early discard outlets and too few Moxen/free spells. So the decent performance bodes well. The fifth toughness would have been nice, as my opponent was packing Languish, but I never saw it. I am probably happy to replace Hero of Oxid Ridge moving forward, since Haz seems more interesting. 'Heckbent' happens a little more naturally than hellbent, and is easier to maintain and manage whilst still working OK with Asylum Visitor and others. I do not see Haz doing much in other archetypes, but as a dedicated aggro curve-topper, she is pretty promising.
As I mentioned in the red 4/3 guy thread, I'm always actively looking for more discard in B/R, so will be adding Collective Brutality and a few other bits which will have the side effect of making Haz happier. Of course finding room for Chrome Mox again would be another boon for her.
Rhonas hits very hard and is easy to turn on. It represented something like 8 damage a turn when using the ability, 5 + 2 then whatever bonus trample damage on top of that. Your opponent can't really afford to assume that you DON'T have a 4 power 4CMC or 5CMC creature ready to come down and has to game-plan accordingly in Greater Gargadon style, more so since any old 2 power one drop or drop can do it as well. The other creature getting removed in response to the pump happened once and was about as annoying as when it happens with an equipment, but it was already a losing cause by that point since the removal couldn't deal with Rhonas himself. The deathtouch happened to be completely irrelevant as I never saw a X/6 or bigger creature. Not to say it won't happen though. Like the haste on Haz, it can be a bit of an evaluation trap; sure you'd rather have trample, but we're already getting a good deal so consider it a bonus. If you already have a 4 power creature (Whisperwood Elemental in this case) before the ability you can cause carnage with blocking decisions and combat maths. I am glad Rhonas' trigger is 4 and not 5; that would really make it unplayable. What makes it great is that every utility 2/1 or 2/2 is a potential switch for it - and there are a fair amount of +2 power effects including Rancor, Swords, Bonesplitter etc. Native 4 power guys are pretty common too and seem to be creeping in at 3 (Yasova) and even 2 (red discard guy) CMC now.
Both of these guys do get chumped, but are able circumvent in their own way, Rhonas by giving trample somewhere else and Haz doing it a little better (as befits her higher CMC) by doing direct damage at the cost of a card. They do warp a game in a very immediate way, since unlike the Theros Gods, they can turn on out of nowhere - particularly Rhonas (Haz you can potentially see coming a bit easier by checking hand size). Remember in paper Magic, every player doesn't have infinite chump blockers and constant supplies of instant speed exiling removal with five colours of mana up (at times during spoiler season, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise) so these guys do get work done regardless of lack of evasion. In any case we are talking about a 3 and a 4 drop so expectations have to be reasonable.
Harsh Mentor didn't really do anything besides be a bear, which was kind of disappointing, but this was more due to bad luck than anything else since the interactions on the other side were available - just a case of drawing it at the wrong time. I think it pinged one fetch activation which takes the fetch-shock sequence to a full quarter of your life total. Ouch! I haven't crunched the numbers for him yet, but I'm interested to see what he can do. I recall that Young Pyromancer had several awful showings in our cube (and not just ours) before finding his groove...
Good feedback goodking, thanks. I'm stoked to test out both of those gods. I do have the luxury this set of waiting for extended testing results before sliding stuff into my cube brcause I'm currently living in a van and traveling the states so I won't have access to my cube for a few months. On that note if anyone here lives in AZ or CA and wants to cube with a random forum buddy pm me. I miss playing magic on the reg and would love to sling some cards.
All in all, this is a decent set for cube. However, I am still super salty that the bicycle lands aren't enemy colored. If they were, they would have been the perfect companions to the allied battle lands and would have formed a good third cycle of fetchable duals with those.
I have compiled my complete list of interesting cards for 540 unpowered cube. Asterisks denote loose additions, but they deserve to be talked about or possibly tested.
WHITE
Angel of Sanctions
Gideon of the Trials
Forsake the Worldly
Glory-Bound Initiate
BLUE
Vizier of Many Faces
*Censor
*Pull from Tomorrow
*As Foretold
BLACK
Liliana, Death's Majesty
Dread Wanderer
Never // Return
*Plague Belcher
RED
Soul-Scar Mage
Combat Celebrant (Running Kiki-Twin archetype, increasing its value)
*Bloodrage Brawler
*Harsh Mentor
GREEN
Manglehorn
Rhonas the Indomitable
*Vizier of the Menagerie
MULTI
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Allied Cycling Lands
BLACK Carnophage -> Dread Wanderer Consuming Vapors -> Never // Return
I don't get the excitement for the new Liliana at all. It's a worse Rise from the Grave, or five mana for a Zombie token and maybe a speed bump. No way I'd put that in over Ob Nixilis or the two better 3 CMC Lilianas.
The only other card I'm seriously considering right now is Plague Belcher. I'm just not sure where it fits, or whether it's going to turn out to be any good.
I don't know about Honored Crop-Captain over Figure of Destiny. Figure has been a boss since the day it stepped onto a battlefield, I couldn't see myself cutting it considering how many decks it goes in and how well it does in those decks.
And re: Liliana, Rise from the Grave doesn't make zombies and soak up life. You can't just pick one part of it and call it bad for that reason, as it ignores the combination of everything that makes it good.
My largest test batch EVER for a set, although I'm testing some pretty unlikely includes.
Evaluated by the likelyhood of sticking around for 1+ year
~100%
Dread Wanderer
Manglehorn
Never//Return
Combat Celebrant
Nissa, Steward of Elements
~90%
Liliana, Death Majesty
Glorybound Initiate
~75%
Angel of Sanctions
Plague Belcher
Gideon of the Trials
~50%
Vizier of the menagrie
Soul Scar mage
Hazoret The fervent
Harsh Mentor
~25%
Cast out
Rhonas the indominable
Curator of mysteries
10% or less
Channeler Initiate
Commit//Memory
Vizier of many faces
Anh-crop crasher
Cut//Ribons
Samut, Voice of Desent
Cards that missed testing that I'm interested in feedback (in aproximate order):
Glorybringer (really want to test, but my 5 drops are so congested with archetype support + thundermaw)
Censor
Honored Hydra
Bloodrage brawler
Regal Caracal
Bontu the glorified (my cube only)
Dusk//Dawn
Lilianas Mastery
Prepare//Fight
Trueheart Duelist
Kefnet, the mindful
Lilianas Mastery
Glyph Keeper
Archfiend of Ifnir
Mouth//Feed
I don't know about Honored Crop-Captain over Figure of Destiny. Figure has been a boss since the day it stepped onto a battlefield, I couldn't see myself cutting it considering how many decks it goes in and how well it does in those decks.
And re: Liliana, Rise from the Grave doesn't make zombies and soak up life. You can't just pick one part of it and call it bad for that reason, as it ignores the combination of everything that makes it good.
I've had the opposite experience with Figure of Destiny. It's easy enough to ratchet it up to a 2/2, but a 2/2 for two mana is a little lame these days even if you're spreading that mana out over two turns. And unless things are going poorly, it takes a while before I have the spare mana to boost it again; far more often I want to be casting things from my hand and developing my board.
I think the board states where LDM is going to be a profitable play are less common than you think. You need to have something in your graveyard that you can bring back which is sufficient (in conjunction with your existing board) to protect LDM, who is now very vulnerable at two loyalty counters. Or you need to have a setup where you've established control such that you can make a Zombie to protect her at 6 loyalty while you hunt for something worth bringing back. Both cases presuppose that you're not behind and that your opponent can't just walk around your reanimated thing to knock out LDM.
I much prefer black five-drops which help turn around a bad situation (e.g. Shriekmaw, Custodi Lich, Ob) without needing help from any other card. She'll probably be fine in a dedicated reanimator deck, but in those decks I'd much rather have a one-use reanimator spell for cheaper than five mana.
I don't get the excitement for the new Liliana at all. It's a worse Rise from the Grave, or five mana for a Zombie token and maybe a speed bump. No way I'd put that in over Ob Nixilis or the two better 3 CMC Lilianas.
Dude, what? It's Rise from the Grave plus now I have a planeswalker in play. How is that worse?? Why would you evaluate the card this way and not treat Ob Nix the same way ("it's a worse Doom Blade")?
I really like this set and want to run a few cards in my combo list.
Definitely testing...
Cast Out - wasn't originally planning to run this, but cycling fuels both astral slide and replenish. Not sure what comes out yet but I can't ignore the synergy.
Bloodrage Brawler - discussion won me over on testing this. Adding back in Feldon of the Third Path too to try and make something happen with red discard. I've done madness before and it's not very good, so I'm probably just going to stick with this being more reanimator support and a better tie in for Rakdos recursive aggro and aristocrats.
Dread Wanderer - It's too synergistic not to run. Looking to rework some spells to make room. I really don't want to cut a creature. Worst case, I just lose Sarcomancy but I'd rather not since it's sort of a unique and cool card.
BiCycle lands. Straight swap for the Tangos. I'll slam the enemy versions of these as soon as they are printed (if they ever are). I'm one allied cycle more than enemy, but whatever.
Interesting cards I debated and may still test...
Vizier of Deferment - the block/attack clause is giving me pause. Reminds me of Harbinger of the Tides (though less restrictive). This is also drifting a bit from my current design which requires some hoop jumping for blink effects (Astral Slide).
Vizier of Tumbling Sands - no discussion on this card but it's potentially pretty useful. Untap effects are powerful. This is a cycle 2 with untap. Worth a card in some decks. The main mode (1/3 untapper) also isn't useless. I don't have room but I really want to test this so I might find a place for it. Wish this was tap or untap. But that would likely make this too strong.
Limits of Solidarity - this feels like a slam dunk in my midrange list. Threaten effects can be really strong with a lot of creature combat going on. But they can also be dead in certain matchups. This is where the cycling on this is so great. I think this has a lot of play but not sure my combo list is the place for it. Maybe though.
Flameblade Adept - So many combos with this. Wheel, Firestorm, Faithless Looting, Tormenting Voice. And that's just the on-color stuff. Blue has a fistful of draw/discard stuff. This guy might be amazing in Izzet Spells matter.
Angel of Sanctions
We do think this creature is fine. But the question is : Is it needed in the 5-drop slot? The response is : it depends. In fact, if your late game white section is more focus on grindy midrange stuff, that you run a lot of planeswalkers and that your cube environment is a bit slower than average, we’d say yes. Otherwise, it seems not needed, and particularly if you run the army-in-a-can package. Wouldn’t blame anyone for running it thought. Still a pass for us.
Forsake the Worldly
Pretty much nothing to add on this one. The card says it all. A 3-mana Disenchant than can cycle itself when you don’t need the effect. It’s fine. Ultimately, we had conclude that this card wasn’t needed and that it wasn’t better than any of the 2-mana instant speed options. Safe pass. 720 material.
Gideon of the Trials
Gideon of the Trials seems like a slam dunk in every cube at first glance. A 3-mana walker that prevent you from losing? Bring it! But, while being a really good magic card, we do think the new Gideon is the weakest of all its iterations. Why? Mainly because it doesn’t generate any advantage that it seems pretty bad if you’re not ahead. A body 4/4 indestructible body this is not. In counterpart, it does hit hard and help defend yourself. The emblem also brings a fun Gideon’s subgame. And don’t forget it cost only 3 mana! For those reasons, the card seems pretty versatile and is still more than likely to have a significant and unique impact on the cube. Easy include for a 540 and more cube.
Glory-Bond Initiate
We’re not sure about its long-term inclusion, but this aggressive 2-drop seems solid in its role. It hit like a truck and can swing for a bunch of life when needed, making it really good in the mirror. Ultimately, it’s still an aggro card only and those none 1-drop cards tend to disappear from the cube as the years go, though we do think it does have what it takes to hold Soltari Trooper for a while. Good for a 540 and more cube.
Trueheart Duelist
This 2-drop seems decent, but we think being a vanilla creature just kills it. The recursion is nice but feel kind of fair because of the sorcery speed restriction. Outside of a dedicated stax and/or tempo shell that rely on swords to win we think it’s pretty uninteresting. And even in there, it doesn’t seem particularly good. We’re curious about the additional blocking clause though. At the end, it’s a pass.
UBLUEU
Censor
Somewhere between Force Spike and Miscalculation isn’t a bad place to be for countermagic. Its counters condition is worse than Miscalculation’s while its cycling cost is cheaper. Does it make good enough? We do think it is. Testing will tell. Happily including this one at Unsubstantiate spot!
Vizier of Many Faces
Good clone effect are always welcome, but they tend to become more and more fair as the new sets get released. This one is the closest to cubable one we had in years though. We do like that it slowly but surely generates card advantage. A Clever Impersonator version of it could have made it. Still seems to fair the way it is. At the end, it’s a none-unanimous pass.
Vizier of Tumbling Sands
There’s no doubt we’re going to try out this new Time Vault enabler. Main reason why is that its presence will free up the guild spot hold by Kiora’s Follower. It’s certainly not better than the later, but the cycling clause and being monocolor could make it over the top. Nice blue ramp-midrange card as well. Combo purpose include!
BBLACKB
Dread Wanderer
Recursive black 1-drop, we’re welcome! Awesome addition to any cube supporting the black aggro theme. This an awesome stax piece and a great discard target for those, that’s for sure. And it can block as well! Cherry on top, it’s a jackal zombie creature! Easy inclusion in any list.
Liliana, Death’s Majesty
This is the midrange queen in person! While the [+1] is not that great, we do think that the high loyalty count and the milling clause that synergize well with the card itself will make it. Also, the [-3] is an interesting ability that is so far unseen on a planeswalker and would certainly bring some nice interaction as well. Finally, the achievable ultimate kind of bring a new black wrath to the cube. Overall, real good well rounded magic card. Easy inclusion at any size above 360.
Never//Return
A better Ruinous Path this is. More scalable, more versatile and can bring some shenanigans as you can still get value of it when you discard it. The grave hate part is non-negligible as well. We think this is the best (monocolor) walker’s removal behind Hero’s Downfall. It’s just sad that the card is so ugly. Will be in for sure!
RREDR
Combat Celebrant
What a new, powerful and versatile Kiki target? Are you serious? Not being a Twin target is not a big deal considering this card seems also more than decent into other archetypes as well. In fact, this looks like a boss in any red aggressive decks. Even midrange decks that can clear the path will certainly find a use for it. Super excited about this one. 540 and more cube lists should try it out for sure!
Harsh Mentor
This red hatebear seems insanely good at knocking down important midrange and control cards, while also shutting down the Kiki-Twin combo pretty efficiently. It actually forces your opponent to get rid of it before getting into business with cards like Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Aetherling or Pack Rat. Massive passive ability for a splashable 2-drop mean. Staple call on this one. 450 and more list would love it. Easy add!
Soul-Scar Mage
This prowess dude intrigues us a lot. Seems real close in powerlevel to Monastery Swiftspear. Losing haste for a powerful static ability that helps curing one the biggest red deck win weakness seems legit. Every bolt you have turning into Puncture Blast means math-headaches for your opponents. This thing literally can eat a Baneslayer at its breakfast with some help. Nothing less. Really happy to test this at 630 of size. And FWIW, we do think it can go well into smaller lists as well.
Hazoret the Fervent
The fervent god, also known as the pervert god, seems decent to good. The activation restriction seems achievable in most aggressive lists and the activated ability seems like a nice way to reach wins. However, we don’t think it helps solving the redundancy at the 4-mana slot, even if it brings a new discard outlet for red decks. In fact, traditional aggressive options like Hero of Oxid Ridge and Hellrider still seem way better at shutting down games quickly. And we’re for sure not removing unique effect like Flametongue Kavu and Avalanche Riders from our list for this card. At the end, it looks like this new red god is in a dead end. Hopefully, maybe 720 and above lists can find a spot for him.
GGREENG
Manglehorn
The end of the sex monkeys? Please no! Unfortunately, this seems just like a strict upgrade, the tapping clause being pretty relevant against specific cards like Battlesphere Myr for example (Yeah, we can all imagine how much this will be frustrating). Easy inclusion for any power list. Simply the best green vandal creature.
Rhonas the Indomitable
The only other noticeable green card we’ve found in this set. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem good enough to warrant a spot. Main problem is that this god seems so easy to disrupt. Khans of Tarkir set has already showed in the past that the ferocity clause isn’t that easy to achieve. While this one does at first glance give the impression of being well rounded, because it can by himself pump one of your other guy in order to swing for 5 with it, it still has some issues. If you look at it like if it was an equipment (+2/+0 Trample) that has a cumulative equip cost of 3, this suddenly doesn’t look that great. Sure the equipment itself becomes a temporary 5/5 treat at activation, but the lack of evasion just kills it. Our guess is that it will, most of the time, be the type of card that give breathing space to your opponent when resolved on curve. And unlike vehicle and equipment, Rhonas doesn’t bring pseudo hasting damage unless your ETB creature has already 4 power in its base stats. We’ll have to pass and Purphoros remains the only cubable god.
GRUUL
Samut, Voice of Dissent
This is a gruul stat monster and the Flash keyword and the Fires of Yavimaya will be a major part of its eventual success. However, our playgroup had unanimous consensus that it wasn’t good enough for the cube. Why? Because of its lack of evasion. And because this is in fact a Naya card… that is not better than Wild Nacalt. Not having access to the white activated ability isn’t a big deal but the card will be better in WRG decks because of it and that’s what make it a 3-colors spell. Main concern is still the lack of evasion. Something that will eventually push it in the win-more cards category. Safe pass we’d say.
SIMIC
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Dear Nissa, you’re so welcome! Thanks Wizard for printing the best Simic noncreature spell! This seems just overall solid. Good for control, midrange and super ramp. Even combo could make a good use her [+1] ability. Library manipulation, card advantage and a powerful wincon are what Simic Nissa is made of. The only downside is that she can have a hard time protecting herself when you’re behind and whiffing her first [0] activation. Hopefully, she’s a turn-3 walker and that can potentially mitigate this concern. Easily addition in even the tightest guild lists. 360-450 material!
LANDS
Cycling Lands
Some of those lands seems playable. In fact, we wouldn’t blame anyone for running either the UW, UB or RG one, though we’re not sure they can all compete with even for the 5th or 6th spot in those guilds. Being fetchable plays a major in their overall evaluation. We’ll have to test them out in order to see if they worth it or not. Those 3 will be in for now at least.
I don't get the excitement for the new Liliana at all. It's a worse Rise from the Grave, or five mana for a Zombie token and maybe a speed bump. No way I'd put that in over Ob Nixilis or the two better 3 CMC Lilianas.
Dude, what? It's Rise from the Grave plus now I have a planeswalker in play. How is that worse?? Why would you evaluate the card this way and not treat Ob Nix the same way ("it's a worse Doom Blade")?
If I play Ob Nixilis and destroy a creature, and then it gets killed via combat before I get to use it again, I've made a one for one trade. That's worst-case scenario, if they have any targetable creature (like 90% of all games). Worst-case scenario for its +1 ability is replacing itself with a fresh card, and then probably requiring a removal spell from them to get rid of it since they didn't have any creatures worth killing when I played it.
LDM's worst case scenario is having nothing worth reanimating, which can and does happen plenty. Otherwise you typically have one of three cases:
1. You made an extra effort through some other card (e.g. Entomb) to get something big into your graveyard.
2. You aren't playing LDM on curve, instead waiting until later in the game when something huge gets killed naturally and bringing her in afterwards.
3. You're limited in what you can reanimate by playing her on curve to things that are CMC <= 4.
All of those scenarios are doing something to limit how good LDM can be: requiring extra effort from other cards, having to wait until later in the game (assuming you live that long), or limiting the power of the thing you can get back in the early game. Without reanimating something off of her, you're just making Zombies, and most things in cube have a way to go around or through Zombies. Her ultimate probably doesn't matter; in a scenario where an opponent has enough non-Zombie creatures to be worth board wiping, those same creatures are probably going to prevent her from getting to 7 loyalty.
(Also very important to note: Rise from the Grave can reach into any graveyard, and LDM cannot.)
She'll probably play just fine in reanimator strategies, but I don't see her as being broadly desirable among black decks. Aggro decks don't get nearly enough bang for five mana. Control decks might not have many reanimation targets worth fetching, and eating your own deck for a handful of Zombies is a poor use of the card. I think people are getting excited over her best-case scenario and ignoring that quite often you'll be disappointed to see her in games you weren't already winning.
Probably won't be, but the hill giant body is slightly relevant. Keeps tempo up more than spending that turn on a 1/1. Both will probably eat a removal spell before they do any serious damage, but Piper is more vulnerable.
Seeker of the Way -> Glory-Bound Initiate
Luminarch Ascension -> Gideon of the Trials
Emeria Angel -> Angel of Sanctions (to hell wit it, I'll test 6 white 5 drop creatures and have my eye on ALL OF THEM for a cut)
Spell Pierce -> Censor (I feel like this is an upgrade, so I'll test this with it probably being the worst 2cmc counter)
Serendib Efreet -> Curator of Mysteries (another test while adding Enclave Cryptologist )
Added:
Stunt Double -> Vizier of Many Faces (This seems to be a good upgrade. Clone just keeps getting better!)
Murderous Cut -> Never//Return (will run 3 of these effects in black plus Dreadbore to keep PW creep in check)
Ob Nixilis Reignited -> Liliana, Death's Majesty
Bone Shredder -> Dread Wanderer
Master of the Feast -> Plague Belcher (hitting the zombies hard. also adding Sarcomancy )
Eidolon of the Great Revel -> Harsh Mentor (super excited about this switch)
Thunderbreak Regent -> Soul-Scar Mage (Needed to get rid of a 4 drop and add a 1, and I like this guy a lot)
Added:
Temur Battle Rage -> Bloodrage Brawler (lots of good discussion on this guy. I like him, so I'll give him a test)
Uktabi Orangutan -> Manglehorn (such a sad day)
Trygon Predator -> Nissa, Steward of Elements
Xenagos, the Reveler -> Samut, Voice of Dissent (this will be under evaluation and might not stay long)
No artifacts.
Bicycle Lands are shaking up my 5th land slot. Moving from all Checklands to a mix of Painlands and Bicycles.
Un-Spiracy Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/63204
Utility Land Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/53258
Just on the basis of commons and uncommons, there are a ton of cards I'm interested in adding from this set,and loads of the rares are auto-includes. This set honestly does seem really damn good. It feels odd to jump on the love train, but gods, it feels so much better than jumping on the hate train. I hated that I hated BFZ block, and it feels nice to be optimistic.
Definite test cards for me are
Plus a ton of rares and mythics based on what I get. The bicycle lands are of particular interest to me, and I might order them when they get cheap. Since my cube is so big, my testing cycle is a lot slower than most of yours. Cards go in, and are pulled out one at a time for not performing. It's often quite a while after a card is added before we actually get to see it in an appropriate deck.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I was pretty bullish on Haz originally, in fact I kind of thought it sucks, but I like the card a lot more in paper than I do in theory. The discard outlet is a welcome source of inevitability, recalling very strongly a more flexible and pricy Molten Vortex when I ran that for 6-9 months or so. What was surprising was that she represented decent value even when not being immediately available to attack, owing to having too many cards in hand when he hit the table. She is still a 5/4 indestructible after all. Try pretending it doesn't have haste, and it's still a good creature. To be fair, my deck wasn't optimally built to take advantage of the haste, with too few good early discard outlets and too few Moxen/free spells. So the decent performance bodes well. The fifth toughness would have been nice, as my opponent was packing Languish, but I never saw it. I am probably happy to replace Hero of Oxid Ridge moving forward, since Haz seems more interesting. 'Heckbent' happens a little more naturally than hellbent, and is easier to maintain and manage whilst still working OK with Asylum Visitor and others. I do not see Haz doing much in other archetypes, but as a dedicated aggro curve-topper, she is pretty promising.
As I mentioned in the red 4/3 guy thread, I'm always actively looking for more discard in B/R, so will be adding Collective Brutality and a few other bits which will have the side effect of making Haz happier. Of course finding room for Chrome Mox again would be another boon for her.
Rhonas hits very hard and is easy to turn on. It represented something like 8 damage a turn when using the ability, 5 + 2 then whatever bonus trample damage on top of that. Your opponent can't really afford to assume that you DON'T have a 4 power 4CMC or 5CMC creature ready to come down and has to game-plan accordingly in Greater Gargadon style, more so since any old 2 power one drop or drop can do it as well. The other creature getting removed in response to the pump happened once and was about as annoying as when it happens with an equipment, but it was already a losing cause by that point since the removal couldn't deal with Rhonas himself. The deathtouch happened to be completely irrelevant as I never saw a X/6 or bigger creature. Not to say it won't happen though. Like the haste on Haz, it can be a bit of an evaluation trap; sure you'd rather have trample, but we're already getting a good deal so consider it a bonus. If you already have a 4 power creature (Whisperwood Elemental in this case) before the ability you can cause carnage with blocking decisions and combat maths. I am glad Rhonas' trigger is 4 and not 5; that would really make it unplayable. What makes it great is that every utility 2/1 or 2/2 is a potential switch for it - and there are a fair amount of +2 power effects including Rancor, Swords, Bonesplitter etc. Native 4 power guys are pretty common too and seem to be creeping in at 3 (Yasova) and even 2 (red discard guy) CMC now.
Both of these guys do get chumped, but are able circumvent in their own way, Rhonas by giving trample somewhere else and Haz doing it a little better (as befits her higher CMC) by doing direct damage at the cost of a card. They do warp a game in a very immediate way, since unlike the Theros Gods, they can turn on out of nowhere - particularly Rhonas (Haz you can potentially see coming a bit easier by checking hand size). Remember in paper Magic, every player doesn't have infinite chump blockers and constant supplies of instant speed exiling removal with five colours of mana up (at times during spoiler season, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise) so these guys do get work done regardless of lack of evasion. In any case we are talking about a 3 and a 4 drop so expectations have to be reasonable.
Harsh Mentor didn't really do anything besides be a bear, which was kind of disappointing, but this was more due to bad luck than anything else since the interactions on the other side were available - just a case of drawing it at the wrong time. I think it pinged one fetch activation which takes the fetch-shock sequence to a full quarter of your life total. Ouch! I haven't crunched the numbers for him yet, but I'm interested to see what he can do. I recall that Young Pyromancer had several awful showings in our cube (and not just ours) before finding his groove...
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
W Forsake the Worldly (test)
W Glory-Bound Initiate (test)
U Censor (test)
B Dread Wanderer
B Liliana, Death's Majesty
R Soul-Scar Mage (test)
G Manglehorn (test)
UG Nissa, Steward of Elements
Only a few cards that I'm super confident in, but overall a lot that I'm excited about.
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
Glory-Bound Initiate (Cloistered Youth OR Relic Seeker OR Hidden Dragonslayer)
Forsake the Worldly (Revoke Existence)
Dread Wanderer (Dictate of Erebos)
Liliana, Death's Majesty (Ob Nixilis, Reignited)
Soul-Scar Mage (Generator Servant)
Bloodrage Brawler (Cathartic Reunion)
Channeler Initiate (Gyre Sage)
Manglehorn (Selvala’s Stampede OR ?)
Likely inclusions:
Angel of Sanctions (Cataclysmic Gearhulk)
Nissa, Steward of Elements (Sagu Mauler OR Shardless Agent)
Potential inclusions if I can come up with a cut:
Censor
Curator of Mysteries
Vizier of Many Faces
Glyph Keeper
Harsh Mentor
Vizier of the Menagerie
Honored Crop-Captain
All in all, this is a decent set for cube. However, I am still super salty that the bicycle lands aren't enemy colored. If they were, they would have been the perfect companions to the allied battle lands and would have formed a good third cycle of fetchable duals with those.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
WHITE
Angel of Sanctions
Gideon of the Trials
Forsake the Worldly
Glory-Bound Initiate
BLUE
Vizier of Many Faces
*Censor
*Pull from Tomorrow
*As Foretold
BLACK
Liliana, Death's Majesty
Dread Wanderer
Never // Return
*Plague Belcher
RED
Soul-Scar Mage
Combat Celebrant (Running Kiki-Twin archetype, increasing its value)
*Bloodrage Brawler
*Harsh Mentor
GREEN
Manglehorn
Rhonas the Indomitable
*Vizier of the Menagerie
MULTI
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Allied Cycling Lands
Old Cube Thread (Outdated)
945 Card Commander Cube
Rotisserie Drafted Commander Cube Commanders
540 testing and inclusions
WHITE
Glory-Bound Initiate
Trueheart Duelist (possible test)
Angel of Sanctions
Forsake the Worldly (possible test)
Gideon of the Trials
BLUE
Vizier of Many Faces (test)
Glyph Keeper (possible test)
Censor (test)
Pull from Tomorrow (possible test)
Hieroglyphic Illumination (possible test)
BLACK
Dread Wanderer
Never // Return
Liliana, Death's Majesty
RED
Soul-Scar Mage (test)
Harsh Mentor (test)
Hazoret the Fervent
GREEN
Manglehorn
Honored Hydra
OTHER
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Samut, Voice of Dissent
UB / UW lands and possibly the rest of the whole cycle
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
WHITE
Containment Priest -> Glory-Bound Initiate
Thalia's Lieutenant -> Gideon of the Trials
Angelic Destiny -> Angel of Sanctions (torn on this one, could replace Archangel of Thune instead)
BLUE
Wharf Infiltrator -> Kefnet the Mindful (I am not convinced Kefnet will stick around long, but she's worth a shot)
Scatter to the Winds -> Commit // Memory
Master of Waves -> Vizier of Many Faces
Docent of Perfection -> Glyph Keeper
BLACK
Carnophage -> Dread Wanderer
Consuming Vapors -> Never // Return
I don't get the excitement for the new Liliana at all. It's a worse Rise from the Grave, or five mana for a Zombie token and maybe a speed bump. No way I'd put that in over Ob Nixilis or the two better 3 CMC Lilianas.
RED
Reckless Waif -> Soul-Scar Mage
Anger of the Gods -> Sweltering Suns
Shaman of the Great Hunt -> Hazoret the Fervent
Combustible Gearhulk -> Glorybringer
Really tempted to test Bloodlust Inciter.
GREEN
Obstinate Baloth -> Channeler Initiate
Woodland Wanderer -> Rhonas the Indomitable
Decimator of the Provinces -> Vizier of the Menagerie
GRUUL
Ulrich of the Krallenhorde -> Samut, Voice of Dissent
IZZET
Dack's Duplicate -> Enigma Drake
SIMIC
Kiora, Master of the Depths -> Nissa, Steward of Elements
BOROS
Figure of Destiny -> Honored Crop-Captain
The only other card I'm seriously considering right now is Plague Belcher. I'm just not sure where it fits, or whether it's going to turn out to be any good.
And re: Liliana, Rise from the Grave doesn't make zombies and soak up life. You can't just pick one part of it and call it bad for that reason, as it ignores the combination of everything that makes it good.
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Evaluated by the likelyhood of sticking around for 1+ year
~100%
Dread Wanderer
Manglehorn
Never//Return
Combat Celebrant
Nissa, Steward of Elements
~90%
Liliana, Death Majesty
Glorybound Initiate
~75%
Angel of Sanctions
Plague Belcher
Gideon of the Trials
~50%
Vizier of the menagrie
Soul Scar mage
Hazoret The fervent
Harsh Mentor
~25%
Cast out
Rhonas the indominable
Curator of mysteries
10% or less
Channeler Initiate
Commit//Memory
Vizier of many faces
Anh-crop crasher
Cut//Ribons
Samut, Voice of Desent
Cards that missed testing that I'm interested in feedback (in aproximate order):
Glorybringer (really want to test, but my 5 drops are so congested with archetype support + thundermaw)
Censor
Honored Hydra
Bloodrage brawler
Regal Caracal
Bontu the glorified (my cube only)
Dusk//Dawn
Lilianas Mastery
Prepare//Fight
Trueheart Duelist
Kefnet, the mindful
Lilianas Mastery
Glyph Keeper
Archfiend of Ifnir
Mouth//Feed
Last Updated 02/07/24
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I've had the opposite experience with Figure of Destiny. It's easy enough to ratchet it up to a 2/2, but a 2/2 for two mana is a little lame these days even if you're spreading that mana out over two turns. And unless things are going poorly, it takes a while before I have the spare mana to boost it again; far more often I want to be casting things from my hand and developing my board.
I think the board states where LDM is going to be a profitable play are less common than you think. You need to have something in your graveyard that you can bring back which is sufficient (in conjunction with your existing board) to protect LDM, who is now very vulnerable at two loyalty counters. Or you need to have a setup where you've established control such that you can make a Zombie to protect her at 6 loyalty while you hunt for something worth bringing back. Both cases presuppose that you're not behind and that your opponent can't just walk around your reanimated thing to knock out LDM.
I much prefer black five-drops which help turn around a bad situation (e.g. Shriekmaw, Custodi Lich, Ob) without needing help from any other card. She'll probably be fine in a dedicated reanimator deck, but in those decks I'd much rather have a one-use reanimator spell for cheaper than five mana.
Ranking of cards that are definitely in from this set 5:
Gideon of the Trials
Liliana, Death's Majesty
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Never // Return
Manglehorn
Ranking of cards we will test from this set 12 regular plus 5 cycling lands:
-------------------Cards below this line I'm not confident will make it-------------------
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
Gideon of the Trials -> Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (limiting white pw's, wanting to have different CC's)
Glory-Bound Initiate -> Imposing Sovereign
Angel of Sanctions -> Kor Sanctifiers
Vizier of Many Faces -> Imprisoned in the Moon
Liliana, Death's Majesty -> Ob Nixilis Reignited
Dread Wanderer -> Carrion Feeder
Never // Return -> Ruinous Path
Combat Celebrant -> Magus of the Wheel
Harsh Mentor -> War-Name Aspirant
Hazoret the Fervent -> Hero of Oxid Ridge
Manglehorn -> Viridian Shaman
Rhonas the Indomitable -> Yavimaya Elder
Nissa, Steward of Elements -> Kiora, Master of the Depths
Irrigated Farmland -> Adarkar Wastes
Fetid Pools -> Underground River
Overall quite happy with the cards this time around, lots of interesting cards to test.
Dude, what? It's Rise from the Grave plus now I have a planeswalker in play. How is that worse?? Why would you evaluate the card this way and not treat Ob Nix the same way ("it's a worse Doom Blade")?
Definitely testing...
Interesting cards I debated and may still test...
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Angel of Sanctions
We do think this creature is fine. But the question is : Is it needed in the 5-drop slot? The response is : it depends. In fact, if your late game white section is more focus on grindy midrange stuff, that you run a lot of planeswalkers and that your cube environment is a bit slower than average, we’d say yes. Otherwise, it seems not needed, and particularly if you run the army-in-a-can package. Wouldn’t blame anyone for running it thought. Still a pass for us.
Forsake the Worldly
Pretty much nothing to add on this one. The card says it all. A 3-mana Disenchant than can cycle itself when you don’t need the effect. It’s fine. Ultimately, we had conclude that this card wasn’t needed and that it wasn’t better than any of the 2-mana instant speed options. Safe pass. 720 material.
Gideon of the Trials
Gideon of the Trials seems like a slam dunk in every cube at first glance. A 3-mana walker that prevent you from losing? Bring it! But, while being a really good magic card, we do think the new Gideon is the weakest of all its iterations. Why? Mainly because it doesn’t generate any advantage that it seems pretty bad if you’re not ahead. A body 4/4 indestructible body this is not. In counterpart, it does hit hard and help defend yourself. The emblem also brings a fun Gideon’s subgame. And don’t forget it cost only 3 mana! For those reasons, the card seems pretty versatile and is still more than likely to have a significant and unique impact on the cube. Easy include for a 540 and more cube.
Glory-Bond Initiate
We’re not sure about its long-term inclusion, but this aggressive 2-drop seems solid in its role. It hit like a truck and can swing for a bunch of life when needed, making it really good in the mirror. Ultimately, it’s still an aggro card only and those none 1-drop cards tend to disappear from the cube as the years go, though we do think it does have what it takes to hold Soltari Trooper for a while. Good for a 540 and more cube.
Trueheart Duelist
This 2-drop seems decent, but we think being a vanilla creature just kills it. The recursion is nice but feel kind of fair because of the sorcery speed restriction. Outside of a dedicated stax and/or tempo shell that rely on swords to win we think it’s pretty uninteresting. And even in there, it doesn’t seem particularly good. We’re curious about the additional blocking clause though. At the end, it’s a pass.
Censor
Somewhere between Force Spike and Miscalculation isn’t a bad place to be for countermagic. Its counters condition is worse than Miscalculation’s while its cycling cost is cheaper. Does it make good enough? We do think it is. Testing will tell. Happily including this one at Unsubstantiate spot!
Vizier of Many Faces
Good clone effect are always welcome, but they tend to become more and more fair as the new sets get released. This one is the closest to cubable one we had in years though. We do like that it slowly but surely generates card advantage. A Clever Impersonator version of it could have made it. Still seems to fair the way it is. At the end, it’s a none-unanimous pass.
Vizier of Tumbling Sands
There’s no doubt we’re going to try out this new Time Vault enabler. Main reason why is that its presence will free up the guild spot hold by Kiora’s Follower. It’s certainly not better than the later, but the cycling clause and being monocolor could make it over the top. Nice blue ramp-midrange card as well. Combo purpose include!
Dread Wanderer
Recursive black 1-drop, we’re welcome! Awesome addition to any cube supporting the black aggro theme. This an awesome stax piece and a great discard target for those, that’s for sure. And it can block as well! Cherry on top, it’s a jackal zombie creature! Easy inclusion in any list.
Liliana, Death’s Majesty
This is the midrange queen in person! While the [+1] is not that great, we do think that the high loyalty count and the milling clause that synergize well with the card itself will make it. Also, the [-3] is an interesting ability that is so far unseen on a planeswalker and would certainly bring some nice interaction as well. Finally, the achievable ultimate kind of bring a new black wrath to the cube. Overall, real good well rounded magic card. Easy inclusion at any size above 360.
Never//Return
A better Ruinous Path this is. More scalable, more versatile and can bring some shenanigans as you can still get value of it when you discard it. The grave hate part is non-negligible as well. We think this is the best (monocolor) walker’s removal behind Hero’s Downfall. It’s just sad that the card is so ugly. Will be in for sure!
Combat Celebrant
What a new, powerful and versatile Kiki target? Are you serious? Not being a Twin target is not a big deal considering this card seems also more than decent into other archetypes as well. In fact, this looks like a boss in any red aggressive decks. Even midrange decks that can clear the path will certainly find a use for it. Super excited about this one. 540 and more cube lists should try it out for sure!
Harsh Mentor
This red hatebear seems insanely good at knocking down important midrange and control cards, while also shutting down the Kiki-Twin combo pretty efficiently. It actually forces your opponent to get rid of it before getting into business with cards like Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Aetherling or Pack Rat. Massive passive ability for a splashable 2-drop mean. Staple call on this one. 450 and more list would love it. Easy add!
Soul-Scar Mage
This prowess dude intrigues us a lot. Seems real close in powerlevel to Monastery Swiftspear. Losing haste for a powerful static ability that helps curing one the biggest red deck win weakness seems legit. Every bolt you have turning into Puncture Blast means math-headaches for your opponents. This thing literally can eat a Baneslayer at its breakfast with some help. Nothing less. Really happy to test this at 630 of size. And FWIW, we do think it can go well into smaller lists as well.
Hazoret the Fervent
The fervent god, also known as the pervert god, seems decent to good. The activation restriction seems achievable in most aggressive lists and the activated ability seems like a nice way to reach wins. However, we don’t think it helps solving the redundancy at the 4-mana slot, even if it brings a new discard outlet for red decks. In fact, traditional aggressive options like Hero of Oxid Ridge and Hellrider still seem way better at shutting down games quickly. And we’re for sure not removing unique effect like Flametongue Kavu and Avalanche Riders from our list for this card. At the end, it looks like this new red god is in a dead end. Hopefully, maybe 720 and above lists can find a spot for him.
Manglehorn
The end of the sex monkeys? Please no! Unfortunately, this seems just like a strict upgrade, the tapping clause being pretty relevant against specific cards like Battlesphere Myr for example (Yeah, we can all imagine how much this will be frustrating). Easy inclusion for any power list. Simply the best green vandal creature.
Rhonas the Indomitable
The only other noticeable green card we’ve found in this set. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem good enough to warrant a spot. Main problem is that this god seems so easy to disrupt. Khans of Tarkir set has already showed in the past that the ferocity clause isn’t that easy to achieve. While this one does at first glance give the impression of being well rounded, because it can by himself pump one of your other guy in order to swing for 5 with it, it still has some issues. If you look at it like if it was an equipment (+2/+0 Trample) that has a cumulative equip cost of 3, this suddenly doesn’t look that great. Sure the equipment itself becomes a temporary 5/5 treat at activation, but the lack of evasion just kills it. Our guess is that it will, most of the time, be the type of card that give breathing space to your opponent when resolved on curve. And unlike vehicle and equipment, Rhonas doesn’t bring pseudo hasting damage unless your ETB creature has already 4 power in its base stats. We’ll have to pass and Purphoros remains the only cubable god.
Samut, Voice of Dissent
This is a gruul stat monster and the Flash keyword and the Fires of Yavimaya will be a major part of its eventual success. However, our playgroup had unanimous consensus that it wasn’t good enough for the cube. Why? Because of its lack of evasion. And because this is in fact a Naya card… that is not better than Wild Nacalt. Not having access to the white activated ability isn’t a big deal but the card will be better in WRG decks because of it and that’s what make it a 3-colors spell. Main concern is still the lack of evasion. Something that will eventually push it in the win-more cards category. Safe pass we’d say.
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Dear Nissa, you’re so welcome! Thanks Wizard for printing the best Simic noncreature spell! This seems just overall solid. Good for control, midrange and super ramp. Even combo could make a good use her [+1] ability. Library manipulation, card advantage and a powerful wincon are what Simic Nissa is made of. The only downside is that she can have a hard time protecting herself when you’re behind and whiffing her first [0] activation. Hopefully, she’s a turn-3 walker and that can potentially mitigate this concern. Easily addition in even the tightest guild lists. 360-450 material!
Some of those lands seems playable. In fact, we wouldn’t blame anyone for running either the UW, UB or RG one, though we’re not sure they can all compete with even for the 5th or 6th spot in those guilds. Being fetchable plays a major in their overall evaluation. We’ll have to test them out in order to see if they worth it or not. Those 3 will be in for now at least.
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Cheers, and happy cubing!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
If I play Ob Nixilis and destroy a creature, and then it gets killed via combat before I get to use it again, I've made a one for one trade. That's worst-case scenario, if they have any targetable creature (like 90% of all games). Worst-case scenario for its +1 ability is replacing itself with a fresh card, and then probably requiring a removal spell from them to get rid of it since they didn't have any creatures worth killing when I played it.
LDM's worst case scenario is having nothing worth reanimating, which can and does happen plenty. Otherwise you typically have one of three cases:
1. You made an extra effort through some other card (e.g. Entomb) to get something big into your graveyard.
2. You aren't playing LDM on curve, instead waiting until later in the game when something huge gets killed naturally and bringing her in afterwards.
3. You're limited in what you can reanimate by playing her on curve to things that are CMC <= 4.
All of those scenarios are doing something to limit how good LDM can be: requiring extra effort from other cards, having to wait until later in the game (assuming you live that long), or limiting the power of the thing you can get back in the early game. Without reanimating something off of her, you're just making Zombies, and most things in cube have a way to go around or through Zombies. Her ultimate probably doesn't matter; in a scenario where an opponent has enough non-Zombie creatures to be worth board wiping, those same creatures are probably going to prevent her from getting to 7 loyalty.
(Also very important to note: Rise from the Grave can reach into any graveyard, and LDM cannot.)
She'll probably play just fine in reanimator strategies, but I don't see her as being broadly desirable among black decks. Aggro decks don't get nearly enough bang for five mana. Control decks might not have many reanimation targets worth fetching, and eating your own deck for a handful of Zombies is a poor use of the card. I think people are getting excited over her best-case scenario and ignoring that quite often you'll be disappointed to see her in games you weren't already winning.