I think Liliana is currently being overrated just because people are desperate for black 5 drops. She is worse than both Obs when she is accelerated into. Reignited is a control card, and a pretty good one at that, while still playable in midrange. Both Obs are better in superfriends decks. Liliana is just another midrange, dork-heavy affair or reanimator backup. Now, she certainly might be better than some of the Obs, but probably not by much. Liliana saturation is also a thing. She not the black Gideon Jura.
Harsh Mentor --> Ash Zealot
Hazoret the Fervent --> Sin Prodder
Soul-Scar Mage --> Reckless Waif
Manglehorn --> Uktabi Orangutan
Rhonas, the Indomitable --> Vinelasher Kudzu
Nissa, Steward of the Elements --> Sagu Mauler
Cycle Duals --> Pain Lands
I'm a little iffy on the Liliana swap, but I honestly don't want to cut Ob for LDM. I really like the idea of having two solid black 5cc 'walkers. I'm also not 100% on the Sin Prodder cut for Hazoret. Do I really want another red 4 drop in the mix? Should I be cutting Hero here instead, even though it's miles better than Prodder?
I don't know about Honored Crop-Captain over Figure of Destiny. Figure has been a boss since the day it stepped onto a battlefield, I couldn't see myself cutting it considering how many decks it goes in and how well it does in those decks.
And re: Liliana, Rise from the Grave doesn't make zombies and soak up life. You can't just pick one part of it and call it bad for that reason, as it ignores the combination of everything that makes it good.
I've had the opposite experience with Figure of Destiny. It's easy enough to ratchet it up to a 2/2, but a 2/2 for two mana is a little lame these days even if you're spreading that mana out over two turns. And unless things are going poorly, it takes a while before I have the spare mana to boost it again; far more often I want to be casting things from my hand and developing my board.
I think the board states where LDM is going to be a profitable play are less common than you think. You need to have something in your graveyard that you can bring back which is sufficient (in conjunction with your existing board) to protect LDM, who is now very vulnerable at two loyalty counters. Or you need to have a setup where you've established control such that you can make a Zombie to protect her at 6 loyalty while you hunt for something worth bringing back. Both cases presuppose that you're not behind and that your opponent can't just walk around your reanimated thing to knock out LDM.
I much prefer black five-drops which help turn around a bad situation (e.g. Shriekmaw, Custodi Lich, Ob) without needing help from any other card. She'll probably be fine in a dedicated reanimator deck, but in those decks I'd much rather have a one-use reanimator spell for cheaper than five mana.
Seems like a macro trend here of ignoring upside.
If figure of destiny didn't have the ability to turn into a 4/4 (and an 8/8), it would not be good. I can't count how many games it became a must deal with threat. It's also won many games single handedly as a 1 drop, something I can't say for... any one drop in cube?
Saying Liliana is a worse rise from the grave is absurd.. Yes SOMETIMES, she's going to reanimate something that doesn't defend that well and the opponent will attack her down and lose nothing.. Have you seen the type of creatures cube decks can reanimate? Dragonlord atarka, Griselbrand, Massacre wurm, Grave titan, Inferno titan, Elesh norn, Hornet Queen etc There are MANY creatures that stabilize the battlefield all by themselves and do an incredible job of protecting liliana. Now the opponent is being attacked by both a very powerful board prescence AND a planeswalker that is threatening another reanimation spell (or worse), or an endless stream of zombies.
Now imagine you have nothing good in your graveyard (something decks looking to reanimate creatures shouldnt have very often), churning out zombies is a very decent plan B, that if you are at or near par, is a legitimate threat. Yeah they might be able to peck at her loyalty, but, given how high it is, it should buy you time to set something up.
If you dark ritual/lotus/mana vault into it before they've established anything, Liliana can win by herself. She's not as good as Ob Nixilis in this scenario, but it's no rise from the grave lol.
I agree in pure control decks or in black agro decks that don't have a strong zombie tribal component, she falls short of Ob nixilis and isn't very impressive. I could see her missing the final 23 in plenty of control/superfriends decks. That being said, many UB control decks are a semi hybrid with reanimator , so both abilities do work there. She's also not UNPLAYABLE, unless you have like no good creatures in your deck.
Note: I'm not arguing how good a card liliana is, I'm arguing that it is absurd to say she's worse than rise from the grave in cube. I agree a few people are overrating her. She's a solid midrange reanimator card in my eyes, with fringe playability outside of reanimator.
Yeah for real, I get floors have to be considered but rarely are you dwelling there. Even in cube there is variance, a lot of cards are often allowed to get to their ceilings whether through that or your own disruption.
I'd say Lily looks a great card for reanimator as it offers more than just a simple reanimation, being at once a defense and a threat in itself for when things aren't going to plan or you have failed to get a creature into the graveyard. After that, it is going to work great in midrange, be passable in control, and not really see any play in aggro. There's enough scope there in my estimation, for us to be very happy to include the card.
The cost/loyalty ratio is awesome, particularly since her {+} ability also protects her. And, her first ability has synergy with the second ability (and the ultimate). If black had tons of great options, maybe she wouldn't make it. But it doesn't. She's solid, playable and fills a needed gap for black. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
@Cuberang Thanks so much for your reviews and testing results. One question regarding glory-bound initiate. You said it was "medium" but isn't 4 damage, 8 life and trading with a 4 power creature really good for a 2 drop? What made it weak? What two drop beater would have performed better?
In the situation you just described, it sounds like it was a lot better than most other 2cc creatures would've fared though. Considering they would've just gotten stonewalled by a 4/4 and wouldn't have gained like 8 life or whatever.
Day 1 Testing Results: Curator of Mysteries
Watched a friend play it in UB reanimator (a shell I thought it would shine) and he cycled it almost every time. He said he cast it once in 3 matches. Thankfully he was happy to cantrip into his combo peices, so he still liked the card.
The deck was consistent enough that he never wanted to reanimate it. If the card turns into a 90% cycle 10% cast, probably won't spend a blue slot on it. Testing Inconclusive
Vizier of Many faces
Played in the same UB reanimator deck. Thought the shell looked excellent for card, as it played Bazaar of baghdad and entomb. However, from what I observed there didn't seem to be any great moment to embalm it. If he embalmed it, he lost it as a potential reanimation target. Maybe just bad variance, but he was luke warm on the card, and so was I. Testing inconlsuive, leaning more negative.
Commit//Memory
I played a UG ramp deck and drafted commit//memory. While the commit side felt slightly expensive for the effect, having access to memory afterwards felt amazing. Threatening to wheel of fortune in a deck spamming out permanents, without spending a card (or sacrificing interaction) to do it, felt great. If I was losing the card advantage war, but not losing board position (common in ramp decks), it was comforting to know I could catch right back if needed. In any deck actively seeking time spiral effects, I think this card is great. Initial Testing positive
Rhonas The Indomitable
Second cube I played a Bant agro-midrange deck. Not too many 4 power creatures, fairly low curve. The board impact this card makes when accelerated into is unprecedented for a 3 mana creature. It puts the whole game on alert right away. One game I curved voice of resurgance -> rhonas , and my opponent cast a turn 3 Chandra Flamecaller. There is no other green 3 drop that would be close to as good for me here. No matter what he did his chandra was dying next turn for almost no value and I had a scary battlefield presence.
On offense, he is both resilient and powerful.
One thing that became clear to me, is that without lots of 4 powered creatures, rhonas is not good on defense. Holding mana up to pump another creature, and risk it being blown out to removal is a bad place to be. If you are clearly behind in tempo and losing a race, he sort of does nothing. Initial Testing very positive
Vizier of the Menagerie
I played Vizier in the UG ramp deck, and I wasn't too happy with it. While the potential for it to "go off" was there, needing mana to do so was very relevant. One game I cast it, I was building towards doing something much more powerful (arcane savant for tooth and nail, getting craterhoof behemoth). Another game I cast it on turn 3, my opponent untapped and targeted it with Flametongue kavu. Ouch.
A key aspect with cards like Tireless tracker, Courser of kruphix and oracle of mul daya, is you are able to realize their value the turn they come into play without interupting your primary gameplan. Vizier, you have to both have the mana to cast whats on the top of your deck AND you are forced to spend that mana to realize value.
I havent given up entirely on the vizier due to it's potential in kiki-jiki shells and me disliking most green 4 drops, but my hope has almost vanished. Initial Testing Negative
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Despiting looking a bit out of place, I jammed Nissa in an agro-midrange bant deck. It took one game of curving into her via a mana elf for me to be a firm believer. I almost laughed out loud at how good she felt. Scry 2 is a very strong ability for UG. Green decks tend to have cards that are great in the late game, bad in the early game or vice versa. While she's quite vulnerable the turn she comes into play, +2 loyalty a turn quickly changes that.
When her loyalty is getting high and you know you have a decent creature on top of your library (from the scry) her 0 is amazing. One game I went +2, +2 (noticed glen elendra archmage). Next turn I activated the 0 ability putting glen elendra directly into play. My opponent audibly groaned. He was holding up counter magic. I now had 5 untapped mana and an archmage in play out of no where. Not being forced to pay mana for the 0 ability is CRAZY good. Makes it WAY better than Chandra, Pyromaster 0 when you know what's on the top of your deck.
The only game I got to ultimate was a game I was way way ahead already from the advantage nissa generated.
The major caveat with Nissa, that keeps her from being a broken planeswalker is how bad she is when you are behind. Her loyalty spirals out of control quickly, but if you are getting attacked before she can grow it, she's extremly vulnerable and doesn't protect herself at all. Any game where I was on the back foot, she ended up rotting in my hand.
I've never seen a planeswalker so polarizing in this respect. INSANE when the board is stable, but awful when slightly behind.
I can't wait to play more with her and see her in a ramp deck that truly capitalizes on the XUG in her casting cost. Initial testing very positive
Thanks for the write-up! Always good to hear additional information.
Quote from LucidVision »
Her loyalty spirals out of control quickly, but if you are getting attacked before she can grow it, she's extremly vulnerable and doesn't protect herself at all. Any game where I was on the back foot, she ended up rotting in my hand.
I've never seen a planeswalker so polarizing in this respect. INSANE when the board is stable, but awful when slightly behind.
interesting testing on the vizier of the menagerie. I'm not sure how ramp plays out in your cube or what your deck was like but i feel like it isn't a card that would shine in that build since a lot of the creature base is typically mana dorks and bigger creatures which would make it tough to "go off" with vizier playing multiple creatures off the ability.
I feel like this card plays more like collected company where it needs a high density of 2 and 3 cmc value creatures to shine. Don't think I would play menagerie in a ramp deck. At least not the ones that get built in my cube.
Overall a good set. Many people have said it is massively good but I find it on par with other large sets like Theros, Kaladesh, RtR etc. But it certainly stands above crappy blocks like BfZ.
Inclusions W Glory-Bound Initiate - Exactly what I wanted for white, more beef at the 2 drop slot Forsake the Worldly (Testing) - Seems great for my powerful moxless cube, we see if it is needed over more o-ring cards U Censor (Testing) - Only testing becasue blue is tight and it is similar but worse to a couple of cards I am already running Commit//Memory (Testing, thank you forums for prodding me on this one) B Dread Wanderer - Boring but perfect. When we have eight 1 mana, 2 power black recurrsive zombies I will shut up about how we need these Liliana, Death's Majesty - Seems like what I want from a black planeswalker. If only they would print black 5 mana army in a can creatures to go with it. R Bloodrage Brawler - A red 2 drop worth plowing the way for that isn't useless in non-aggro deck. No question Harsh Mentor (Testing) Probably good, might never be drafted by my group G Manglehorn (Testing) I need to relook at me artifact/ answer ratio but this guy is near the top Rhonas - Finally some beef at green 3. My group also wants more gods in.
And of course Nissa I have no idea how to fit her in as I am trying to limit walkers as it is, and Kiora #1 is a top pick in my group.
Any set that I can get 5 locks and just as many test cards is great. I understand why lots of people like this set cycling/ split cards, and embalm scream flexibility and value to me, and exert was a way better version of inspired. I was bummed that we missed on an aggressive creature with embalm.
Overall a good set. Many people have said it is massively good but I find it on par with other large sets [...]
You're adding 9 cards into a 405 card cube. That has to be well above average for a cube that size. That's more adds than I get for a normal set update in my 540 card cube!
Testing considerations for my 540 unpowered (link in signature)
W
Angel of Sanctions -> Baneslayer Angel OR Angel of Invention
Forsake the Worldly -> Seal of Cleansing
Gideon of the Trials -> Ajani Goldmane
Glory-Bound Initiate -> Soltari Trooper
Trueheart Duelist -> Journey to Nowhere
U
Censor -> Disallow
Commit // Memory -> Frantic Search
Curator of Mysteries -> Serendib Efreet
Glyph Keeper -> Arcane Savant
Pull from Tomorrow -> Compulsive Research
B
Dread Wanderer -> Reaver Drone
Liliana, Death's Majesty -> Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Never // Return -> Ruinous Path
R
Bloodrage Brawler -> Lightning Mauler
Harsh Mentor -> War-Name Aspirant
Hazoret the Fervent -> Hero of Oxid Ridge
Soul-Scar Mage -> Goblin Glory Chaser
G
Manglehorn -> Uktabi Orangutan
Rhonas, the Indomitable -> Tireless Tracker
Gold
Nissa, Steward of Elements (Simic) -> Shardless Agent
Samut, Voice of Dissent (Naya) -> Wild Nacatl
Amonkhet Cards that I've proxied up and that we are trying out in my 700 card unpowered cube:
WWhiteW: Glory-Bound Initiate - this seemed automatic, particularly since I'm trying to push life-gain. Gideon of the Trials - as a 3cmc Planeswalker, this looks like a strong card. The only thing I'm worried about is pushing the number of Gideons over the limit.
UBlueU: Censor - a strong roll-player that we're all looking forward to. Who doesn't like Force Spike and Daze? Curator of Mysteries - I want this guy to be good, but it was probably one of the last in, and I'm worried that given time it could find its way out.
BBlackB: Never - a welcome addition to check the power-creep of planeswalkers. Liliana, Death's Majesty - one of the cards I'm most excited about, and hopefully, something that will encourage more people to play black.
RRedR: Soul-Scar Mage - a worse version of a somewhat marginal card, but a role-player for archetypes like spells-matter, burn, and tokens that we're trying to bolster. I honestly would not be surprised if it (and Monastery Swiftspear) either found it's way out in time or slowly rose in the ranks of red's 1-drops as the color shifted its focus. Bloodrage Brawler - controversial, but highly anticipated amongst my play-group. Sweltering Suns - there's never much buzz around slight upgrades, but they shouldn't be neglected. Glorybringer - people seem to be sleeping on this here, perhaps because it was spoiled so early. Still, both Stormbreath Dragon and Flametongue Kavu always get picked reasonably highly in my playgroup.
GGreenG: Channeler Initiate - another roll-player, but one that may be best suited for cubes that want higher creature counts and that want to play g/x and g/x/x colored decks. We're happy to give it a try. Rhonas the Indomitable - from the initial feedback, an early candidate for best Amonkhet card for cube. Vizier of the Menagerie - although most testing results posted here seem to be somewhat negative, those results appear to come from powered cubes with lower creature counts. Like with Channeler Initiate, my cube supports creatures-matter (Domri Rade, Collected Company, Duskwatch Recruiter, etc...) as a g/x or g/x/x colored archetype that wants a Future Sight creature.
For a grand total of eighteen potential new cards from this set - granted five are lands. Excluding Kaladesh, this would be the most since Dragons of Tarkir for us if everything stays.
Cards that didn't quite make it but that I'll definitely be watching to see how others who are testing them like them: Angel of Sanctions - I love Fiend Hunters. Harsh Mentor - I hope this can get there, as it's SOOOOO much more interesting than some of my red 2-drops. However, I'm worried that it will just be a bear most of the time, particularly because my activated, non-mana abilities count was a lower percentage than some of the smaller, powered cube lists of others who posted their data.
Some play results for two Amonkhet cards (semi-powered 540.) I forced my players to play with whichever on-color Amonkhet cards they drafted to guarantee I'd get feedback.
Gideon of the Trials was (incorrectly) first-picked pack 3 and was good. It was played against me in an Azorius control deck and it normally played like a Kiora, the Crashing Wave that cost 1 less. It was very strong when my opponent board wiped me and could immediately swing; it's a fast clock and applies a lot of pressure to walkers.
Rhonas the Indomitable was a middling pick and was alright. The Selesnya ramp player had it. It allowed him to go from "stabilizing" to "I've completely taken over the board," and gave him a solid clock. However, I was able to attack through it one game because I removed his other creature, leaving Rhonas all alone. I think it's good enough to stay in because the ramp player got to see both the ceiling and the floor and he said he was happy to have it in his deck.
We had our monthly cube gathering last night, so I got to see a few of the new cards in action. I always enjoy reading these types of write-ups from you guys, so I just thought I'd contribute my own findings.
Gideon of the Trials -- My buddy actually drafted the mono-Gideons deck and ended up with all three of them. After seeing him in action, I'd give him a solid fine rating. The + ability was annoying to play against and the emblem was a real thing. However, it wasn't as tough as I had originally though to get around the emblem by removing Gideon. This guy into Gideon Jura was much harder to fight through.
Commit // Memory -- I had this in a UB tempo deck. Commit was great. My opponent was playing big mana ramp and it helped me to keep him off his big threats so I could attack through. Into the Roil would have had a similar effect (and drew me a card), but I really liked how this gave me an extra turn to stabilize before the same threat appeared again. I never cast Memory, but didn't really have to.
After playing these split cards, I feel they need to be evaluated similar to a planeswalker's ultimate. The first half is where you need to really look, with the aftermath ability just being a little extra icing. This was a small sample size, but so far I'm impressed with this one.
Never // Return -- Similar to Commit // Memory, I had this in that same UB tempo list. We all know how good the effect on Never is, so I won't spend too much time on that. It was good and killed things that needed killing. I liked this much more than Ruinous Path, though. I did use the Aftermath ability on this one a few times and it always felt great getting that kind of value out of my already used spells. I'm not a fan of the card frame layout on these, but I hope we get more sweet aftermath cards in the next set.
Manglehorn -- It was a sex monkeys with a happy ending. Not much more to say. It was a sad time removing the Orangutan from the sleeve, though. I feel like this one needs an alter of those monkeys in the background, just for nostalgia's sake.
Rhonas the Indomitable -- About as good as I thought he'd be. He's incredibly easy to make active and the indestructible is real damn annoying. My friend had him in a RG midrange build with Rancor to help. So far so good on this guy, but he definitely needs more testing to be sure. If you're pushing green as an aggressive color, I'd recommend giving him a shot. I think he'll ge really good in decks like this that fall somewhere between aggro and midrange.
Nissa, Steward of Elements -- Fantastic. Just so good. My friend with the big mana ramp deck had her with Regal Behemoth. I took ten damage immediately when she hit play on more than one occasion during that match. Actually our game three (against my UB tempo list) came down to him needing to top deck Regrowth to get his Nissa back and hit me for ten again to kill me (which he did, the jerk). All of her abilities worked so well together and the ultimate is easily achievable and great at closing out the game. I have no problems ranking her as the best Simic card out there.
Cycle Lands -- Being fetchable was awesome, hitting play tapped was a bummer on more than one occasion. I didn't cycle one all night, but this was one cube night, so it's a super small sample size. I still like these more than the BFZ duals because of the option to cycle, but I'm not 100% that these are the right fit for the more aggressive pairs. I don't know if these are the staple fifth land cycle that we've been looking for.
And that's it. Short and sweet. I (surprisingly) didn't play red all night, so I didn't get a chance to test those cards. I also never saw the white 2-drops I included from AKH in my drafts. Liliana, Death's Majesty was seen and played, but I didn't get to play against it to see it in action.
I feel like this one needs an alter of those monkeys in the background, just for nostalgia's sake.
What a great idea. I'm not a fan of alters in my cube, but I may make an exception for this. I have a close friend who makes alters, I wonder what her reaction is going to be when I say "seriously, I just want two monkeys doing it in the background."
Early testing thoughts/feelings about the cards I decided to test. Haven't got as much experience I'd like, but thought the feedback would be useful. Refer to my post earlier in the thread.
Win (100% will stay for 1 year+):
Commit//Memory (I don't think it has ever hit a sideboard)
Cast out (cycling to get out of mana screw has been relevant for me many times, I think I like it more than banishing light)
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Plague Belcher
Dread Wanderer
Manglehorn
Never//Return
Combat Celebrant (I would 100% cut it without the kiki-combo, underperforming, but not by much. Leads to some awsome unforeseen alpha strikes)
Likely win (80%+ will stay for 1year+. 20% uncertainty due to lack of experience or inconsistent results):
Rhonas the indominable (initial testing was awsome, havent seen it since)
Gideon of the Trials (testing quite well, but I find the card very boring)
Liliana, Death Majesty (only played it once, favourable)
Undecided (either lack of experience or mediocre results):
Cut//Ribons (been solid in multiple archetypes, nothing spectacular and stiff competition. I thought it was a very long shot at first, now im 25-50%)
Hazoret The fervent
Channeler Initiate
Angel of Sanctions (hitting sideboards much more than I was hoping/predicted)
Glorybound Initiate
Likely fail (still testing, but unlikely to stick):
Samut, Voice of Desent (never gets drafted)
Soul Scar mage (testing poorly)
Harsh Mentor (I liked it a lot in theory, but has been testing quite poorly)
Curator of mysteries (Unexciting, almost always cycled)
Cut:
Vizier of many faces
Anh-crop crasher
Vizier of the menagrie
Drafted last night and saw a few cards in action in a 1v1 draft. No one played red or white so no results there, and the only black cards we saw were older. Not a ton of results, but still:
-Censor was pretty decent. It both got used to counter and cycle, and it felt good on both ends. It definitely felt worse than Miscalculation as there were a lot of spots where I missed being able to counter cards due to them being able to pay the potential spike, but it felt really versatile and I think it has earned inclusion due to that. Not sure if I would play it if the cycling was 2, but thankfully that's something I don't need to care about since it obviously costs what it does.
-Commit//Memory was solid. It was nice for my blue deck (specifically storm/combo) to have a way to answer problematic cards for a turn or two. Was used both to counter and remove permanents from play. Highlight was removing an Omnath full of mana during the combat step. The second half was never used, though it seemed great to have that option there eventually especially since I had the Palinchron/Heartbeat of Spring combo in place.
-Nissa was a HOUSE. I lost two games to the Ultimate, once being activated the turn Nissa came into play, the other taking a couple turns to get to. My opponent actually rarely used the 0 ability since he was able to get it to ultimate size so fast and the fireball mode is REALLY strong. It feels like the best UG card.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Gideon of the Trials --> Parallax Wave
Glory-Bound Initiate --> Relic Seeker
Trueheart Duelist --> Hallowed Spiritkeeper
Commit // Memory --> Disallow
Dread Wanderer --> Reaver Drone
Liliana, Death's Majesty --> Liliana, Heretical Healer
Never // Return --> Ruinous Path
Harsh Mentor --> Ash Zealot
Hazoret the Fervent --> Sin Prodder
Soul-Scar Mage --> Reckless Waif
Manglehorn --> Uktabi Orangutan
Rhonas, the Indomitable --> Vinelasher Kudzu
Nissa, Steward of the Elements --> Sagu Mauler
Cycle Duals --> Pain Lands
I'm a little iffy on the Liliana swap, but I honestly don't want to cut Ob for LDM. I really like the idea of having two solid black 5cc 'walkers. I'm also not 100% on the Sin Prodder cut for Hazoret. Do I really want another red 4 drop in the mix? Should I be cutting Hero here instead, even though it's miles better than Prodder?
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Seems like a macro trend here of ignoring upside.
If figure of destiny didn't have the ability to turn into a 4/4 (and an 8/8), it would not be good. I can't count how many games it became a must deal with threat. It's also won many games single handedly as a 1 drop, something I can't say for... any one drop in cube?
Saying Liliana is a worse rise from the grave is absurd.. Yes SOMETIMES, she's going to reanimate something that doesn't defend that well and the opponent will attack her down and lose nothing.. Have you seen the type of creatures cube decks can reanimate? Dragonlord atarka, Griselbrand, Massacre wurm, Grave titan, Inferno titan, Elesh norn, Hornet Queen etc There are MANY creatures that stabilize the battlefield all by themselves and do an incredible job of protecting liliana. Now the opponent is being attacked by both a very powerful board prescence AND a planeswalker that is threatening another reanimation spell (or worse), or an endless stream of zombies.
Now imagine you have nothing good in your graveyard (something decks looking to reanimate creatures shouldnt have very often), churning out zombies is a very decent plan B, that if you are at or near par, is a legitimate threat. Yeah they might be able to peck at her loyalty, but, given how high it is, it should buy you time to set something up.
If you dark ritual/lotus/mana vault into it before they've established anything, Liliana can win by herself. She's not as good as Ob Nixilis in this scenario, but it's no rise from the grave lol.
I agree in pure control decks or in black agro decks that don't have a strong zombie tribal component, she falls short of Ob nixilis and isn't very impressive. I could see her missing the final 23 in plenty of control/superfriends decks. That being said, many UB control decks are a semi hybrid with reanimator , so both abilities do work there. She's also not UNPLAYABLE, unless you have like no good creatures in your deck.
Note: I'm not arguing how good a card liliana is, I'm arguing that it is absurd to say she's worse than rise from the grave in cube. I agree a few people are overrating her. She's a solid midrange reanimator card in my eyes, with fringe playability outside of reanimator.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Did you change your mind on the card? Or is it just a temporary cut for testing?
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Curator of Mysteries
Watched a friend play it in UB reanimator (a shell I thought it would shine) and he cycled it almost every time. He said he cast it once in 3 matches. Thankfully he was happy to cantrip into his combo peices, so he still liked the card.
The deck was consistent enough that he never wanted to reanimate it. If the card turns into a 90% cycle 10% cast, probably won't spend a blue slot on it.
Testing Inconclusive
Vizier of Many faces
Played in the same UB reanimator deck. Thought the shell looked excellent for card, as it played Bazaar of baghdad and entomb. However, from what I observed there didn't seem to be any great moment to embalm it. If he embalmed it, he lost it as a potential reanimation target. Maybe just bad variance, but he was luke warm on the card, and so was I.
Testing inconlsuive, leaning more negative.
Commit//Memory
I played a UG ramp deck and drafted commit//memory. While the commit side felt slightly expensive for the effect, having access to memory afterwards felt amazing. Threatening to wheel of fortune in a deck spamming out permanents, without spending a card (or sacrificing interaction) to do it, felt great. If I was losing the card advantage war, but not losing board position (common in ramp decks), it was comforting to know I could catch right back if needed. In any deck actively seeking time spiral effects, I think this card is great.
Initial Testing positive
Rhonas The Indomitable
Second cube I played a Bant agro-midrange deck. Not too many 4 power creatures, fairly low curve. The board impact this card makes when accelerated into is unprecedented for a 3 mana creature. It puts the whole game on alert right away. One game I curved voice of resurgance -> rhonas , and my opponent cast a turn 3 Chandra Flamecaller. There is no other green 3 drop that would be close to as good for me here. No matter what he did his chandra was dying next turn for almost no value and I had a scary battlefield presence.
On offense, he is both resilient and powerful.
One thing that became clear to me, is that without lots of 4 powered creatures, rhonas is not good on defense. Holding mana up to pump another creature, and risk it being blown out to removal is a bad place to be. If you are clearly behind in tempo and losing a race, he sort of does nothing.
Initial Testing very positive
Vizier of the Menagerie
I played Vizier in the UG ramp deck, and I wasn't too happy with it. While the potential for it to "go off" was there, needing mana to do so was very relevant. One game I cast it, I was building towards doing something much more powerful (arcane savant for tooth and nail, getting craterhoof behemoth). Another game I cast it on turn 3, my opponent untapped and targeted it with Flametongue kavu. Ouch.
A key aspect with cards like Tireless tracker, Courser of kruphix and oracle of mul daya, is you are able to realize their value the turn they come into play without interupting your primary gameplan. Vizier, you have to both have the mana to cast whats on the top of your deck AND you are forced to spend that mana to realize value.
I havent given up entirely on the vizier due to it's potential in kiki-jiki shells and me disliking most green 4 drops, but my hope has almost vanished.
Initial Testing Negative
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Despiting looking a bit out of place, I jammed Nissa in an agro-midrange bant deck. It took one game of curving into her via a mana elf for me to be a firm believer. I almost laughed out loud at how good she felt. Scry 2 is a very strong ability for UG. Green decks tend to have cards that are great in the late game, bad in the early game or vice versa. While she's quite vulnerable the turn she comes into play, +2 loyalty a turn quickly changes that.
When her loyalty is getting high and you know you have a decent creature on top of your library (from the scry) her 0 is amazing. One game I went +2, +2 (noticed glen elendra archmage). Next turn I activated the 0 ability putting glen elendra directly into play. My opponent audibly groaned. He was holding up counter magic. I now had 5 untapped mana and an archmage in play out of no where. Not being forced to pay mana for the 0 ability is CRAZY good. Makes it WAY better than Chandra, Pyromaster 0 when you know what's on the top of your deck.
The only game I got to ultimate was a game I was way way ahead already from the advantage nissa generated.
The major caveat with Nissa, that keeps her from being a broken planeswalker is how bad she is when you are behind. Her loyalty spirals out of control quickly, but if you are getting attacked before she can grow it, she's extremly vulnerable and doesn't protect herself at all. Any game where I was on the back foot, she ended up rotting in my hand.
I've never seen a planeswalker so polarizing in this respect. INSANE when the board is stable, but awful when slightly behind.
I can't wait to play more with her and see her in a ramp deck that truly capitalizes on the XUG in her casting cost.
Initial testing very positive
Last Updated 02/07/24
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I can think of an example.
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I feel like this card plays more like collected company where it needs a high density of 2 and 3 cmc value creatures to shine. Don't think I would play menagerie in a ramp deck. At least not the ones that get built in my cube.
great testing results though!
Inclusions
W
Glory-Bound Initiate - Exactly what I wanted for white, more beef at the 2 drop slot
Forsake the Worldly (Testing) - Seems great for my powerful moxless cube, we see if it is needed over more o-ring cards
U
Censor (Testing) - Only testing becasue blue is tight and it is similar but worse to a couple of cards I am already running
Commit//Memory (Testing, thank you forums for prodding me on this one)
B
Dread Wanderer - Boring but perfect. When we have eight 1 mana, 2 power black recurrsive zombies I will shut up about how we need these
Liliana, Death's Majesty - Seems like what I want from a black planeswalker. If only they would print black 5 mana army in a can creatures to go with it.
R
Bloodrage Brawler - A red 2 drop worth plowing the way for that isn't useless in non-aggro deck. No question
Harsh Mentor (Testing) Probably good, might never be drafted by my group
G
Manglehorn (Testing) I need to relook at me artifact/ answer ratio but this guy is near the top
Rhonas - Finally some beef at green 3. My group also wants more gods in.
And of course Nissa I have no idea how to fit her in as I am trying to limit walkers as it is, and Kiora #1 is a top pick in my group.
Any set that I can get 5 locks and just as many test cards is great. I understand why lots of people like this set cycling/ split cards, and embalm scream flexibility and value to me, and exert was a way better version of inspired. I was bummed that we missed on an aggressive creature with embalm.
You're adding 9 cards into a 405 card cube. That has to be well above average for a cube that size. That's more adds than I get for a normal set update in my 540 card cube!
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W
Angel of Sanctions -> Baneslayer Angel OR Angel of Invention
Forsake the Worldly -> Seal of Cleansing
Gideon of the Trials -> Ajani Goldmane
Glory-Bound Initiate -> Soltari Trooper
Trueheart Duelist -> Journey to Nowhere
U
Censor -> Disallow
Commit // Memory -> Frantic Search
Curator of Mysteries -> Serendib Efreet
Glyph Keeper -> Arcane Savant
Pull from Tomorrow -> Compulsive Research
B
Dread Wanderer -> Reaver Drone
Liliana, Death's Majesty -> Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Never // Return -> Ruinous Path
R
Bloodrage Brawler -> Lightning Mauler
Harsh Mentor -> War-Name Aspirant
Hazoret the Fervent -> Hero of Oxid Ridge
Soul-Scar Mage -> Goblin Glory Chaser
G
Manglehorn -> Uktabi Orangutan
Rhonas, the Indomitable -> Tireless Tracker
Gold
Nissa, Steward of Elements (Simic) -> Shardless Agent
Samut, Voice of Dissent (Naya) -> Wild Nacatl
Colorless
N/A
Land
Canyon Slough -> Sulfurous Springs
Fetid Pools -> Underground River
Irrigated Farmland -> Adarkar Wastes
Scattered Groves -> Brushland
Sheltered Thicket -> Karplusan Forest
Here's my cube! Give it a draft!
Cube type: Powered 360
W
Ajani Goldmane > Gideon of the Trials
Soltari Trooper > Glory-Bound Initiate
U
None
B
Gnarled Scarhide > Dread Wanderer (Pushing zombie count / never saw GS bestowed in its entire time in the cube)
Heir of Falkenrath > Never//Return
Mardu Strike Leader > Plague Belcher
R
Fire Imp > Combat Celebrant
Goblin Glory Chaser > Soul Scar Mage
Lightning Mauler > Harsh Mentor
G
Noose Constrictor > Manglehorn
WUBRG
Trygon Predator > Nissa, Steward of Elements
Artifact
None
Land
None
WWhiteW:
Glory-Bound Initiate - this seemed automatic, particularly since I'm trying to push life-gain.
Gideon of the Trials - as a 3cmc Planeswalker, this looks like a strong card. The only thing I'm worried about is pushing the number of Gideons over the limit.
UBlueU:
Censor - a strong roll-player that we're all looking forward to. Who doesn't like Force Spike and Daze?
Curator of Mysteries - I want this guy to be good, but it was probably one of the last in, and I'm worried that given time it could find its way out.
BBlackB:
Never - a welcome addition to check the power-creep of planeswalkers.
Liliana, Death's Majesty - one of the cards I'm most excited about, and hopefully, something that will encourage more people to play black.
RRedR:
Soul-Scar Mage - a worse version of a somewhat marginal card, but a role-player for archetypes like spells-matter, burn, and tokens that we're trying to bolster. I honestly would not be surprised if it (and Monastery Swiftspear) either found it's way out in time or slowly rose in the ranks of red's 1-drops as the color shifted its focus.
Bloodrage Brawler - controversial, but highly anticipated amongst my play-group.
Sweltering Suns - there's never much buzz around slight upgrades, but they shouldn't be neglected.
Glorybringer - people seem to be sleeping on this here, perhaps because it was spoiled so early. Still, both Stormbreath Dragon and Flametongue Kavu always get picked reasonably highly in my playgroup.
GGreenG:
Channeler Initiate - another roll-player, but one that may be best suited for cubes that want higher creature counts and that want to play g/x and g/x/x colored decks. We're happy to give it a try.
Rhonas the Indomitable - from the initial feedback, an early candidate for best Amonkhet card for cube.
Vizier of the Menagerie - although most testing results posted here seem to be somewhat negative, those results appear to come from powered cubes with lower creature counts. Like with Channeler Initiate, my cube supports creatures-matter (Domri Rade, Collected Company, Duskwatch Recruiter, etc...) as a g/x or g/x/x colored archetype that wants a Future Sight creature.
Land:
Irrigated Farmland
Fetid Pools
Sheltered Thicket
Canyon Slough
Scattered Groves
Basic land type synergies exist in my cube (Vedalken Shackles, Gush, Guardian of Tazeem, Tendrils of Corruption, Dungrove Elder, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Emeria, the Sky Ruin, etc...), so there are more incentives for us than for other lists.
For a grand total of eighteen potential new cards from this set - granted five are lands. Excluding Kaladesh, this would be the most since Dragons of Tarkir for us if everything stays.
Cards that didn't quite make it but that I'll definitely be watching to see how others who are testing them like them:
Angel of Sanctions - I love Fiend Hunters.
Harsh Mentor - I hope this can get there, as it's SOOOOO much more interesting than some of my red 2-drops. However, I'm worried that it will just be a bear most of the time, particularly because my activated, non-mana abilities count was a lower percentage than some of the smaller, powered cube lists of others who posted their data.
Gideon of the Trials was (incorrectly) first-picked pack 3 and was good. It was played against me in an Azorius control deck and it normally played like a Kiora, the Crashing Wave that cost 1 less. It was very strong when my opponent board wiped me and could immediately swing; it's a fast clock and applies a lot of pressure to walkers.
Rhonas the Indomitable was a middling pick and was alright. The Selesnya ramp player had it. It allowed him to go from "stabilizing" to "I've completely taken over the board," and gave him a solid clock. However, I was able to attack through it one game because I removed his other creature, leaving Rhonas all alone. I think it's good enough to stay in because the ramp player got to see both the ceiling and the floor and he said he was happy to have it in his deck.
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OUT --> IN
Disenchant --> Forsake the Worldly
Seeker of the Way --> Trueheart Duelist
Dungeon Geists --> Vizier of Many Faces
Tormented Hero --> Dread Wanderer
Goblin Bombardment --> Soul-Scar Mage
Harsh Mentor --> War-Name Aspirant
Hero of Oxid Ridge --> Hazoret the Fervent
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker --> Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Uktabi Orangutan --> Manglehorn
Here are the rest of the cards I'm planning to add once I get a hold of a copy:
[/list]
Cuts for these TBD.
I'm also planning on jamming as many of the new full-art basics into my basics box as I can get my hands on.
List tags are malformed.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Gideon of the Trials -- My buddy actually drafted the mono-Gideons deck and ended up with all three of them. After seeing him in action, I'd give him a solid fine rating. The + ability was annoying to play against and the emblem was a real thing. However, it wasn't as tough as I had originally though to get around the emblem by removing Gideon. This guy into Gideon Jura was much harder to fight through.
Commit // Memory -- I had this in a UB tempo deck. Commit was great. My opponent was playing big mana ramp and it helped me to keep him off his big threats so I could attack through. Into the Roil would have had a similar effect (and drew me a card), but I really liked how this gave me an extra turn to stabilize before the same threat appeared again. I never cast Memory, but didn't really have to.
After playing these split cards, I feel they need to be evaluated similar to a planeswalker's ultimate. The first half is where you need to really look, with the aftermath ability just being a little extra icing. This was a small sample size, but so far I'm impressed with this one.
Never // Return -- Similar to Commit // Memory, I had this in that same UB tempo list. We all know how good the effect on Never is, so I won't spend too much time on that. It was good and killed things that needed killing. I liked this much more than Ruinous Path, though. I did use the Aftermath ability on this one a few times and it always felt great getting that kind of value out of my already used spells. I'm not a fan of the card frame layout on these, but I hope we get more sweet aftermath cards in the next set.
Manglehorn -- It was a sex monkeys with a happy ending. Not much more to say. It was a sad time removing the Orangutan from the sleeve, though. I feel like this one needs an alter of those monkeys in the background, just for nostalgia's sake.
Rhonas the Indomitable -- About as good as I thought he'd be. He's incredibly easy to make active and the indestructible is real damn annoying. My friend had him in a RG midrange build with Rancor to help. So far so good on this guy, but he definitely needs more testing to be sure. If you're pushing green as an aggressive color, I'd recommend giving him a shot. I think he'll ge really good in decks like this that fall somewhere between aggro and midrange.
Nissa, Steward of Elements -- Fantastic. Just so good. My friend with the big mana ramp deck had her with Regal Behemoth. I took ten damage immediately when she hit play on more than one occasion during that match. Actually our game three (against my UB tempo list) came down to him needing to top deck Regrowth to get his Nissa back and hit me for ten again to kill me (which he did, the jerk). All of her abilities worked so well together and the ultimate is easily achievable and great at closing out the game. I have no problems ranking her as the best Simic card out there.
Cycle Lands -- Being fetchable was awesome, hitting play tapped was a bummer on more than one occasion. I didn't cycle one all night, but this was one cube night, so it's a super small sample size. I still like these more than the BFZ duals because of the option to cycle, but I'm not 100% that these are the right fit for the more aggressive pairs. I don't know if these are the staple fifth land cycle that we've been looking for.
And that's it. Short and sweet. I (surprisingly) didn't play red all night, so I didn't get a chance to test those cards. I also never saw the white 2-drops I included from AKH in my drafts. Liliana, Death's Majesty was seen and played, but I didn't get to play against it to see it in action.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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What a great idea. I'm not a fan of alters in my cube, but I may make an exception for this. I have a close friend who makes alters, I wonder what her reaction is going to be when I say "seriously, I just want two monkeys doing it in the background."
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Win (100% will stay for 1 year+):
Commit//Memory (I don't think it has ever hit a sideboard)
Cast out (cycling to get out of mana screw has been relevant for me many times, I think I like it more than banishing light)
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Plague Belcher
Dread Wanderer
Manglehorn
Never//Return
Combat Celebrant (I would 100% cut it without the kiki-combo, underperforming, but not by much. Leads to some awsome unforeseen alpha strikes)
Likely win (80%+ will stay for 1year+. 20% uncertainty due to lack of experience or inconsistent results):
Rhonas the indominable (initial testing was awsome, havent seen it since)
Gideon of the Trials (testing quite well, but I find the card very boring)
Liliana, Death Majesty (only played it once, favourable)
Undecided (either lack of experience or mediocre results):
Cut//Ribons (been solid in multiple archetypes, nothing spectacular and stiff competition. I thought it was a very long shot at first, now im 25-50%)
Hazoret The fervent
Channeler Initiate
Angel of Sanctions (hitting sideboards much more than I was hoping/predicted)
Glorybound Initiate
Likely fail (still testing, but unlikely to stick):
Samut, Voice of Desent (never gets drafted)
Soul Scar mage (testing poorly)
Harsh Mentor (I liked it a lot in theory, but has been testing quite poorly)
Curator of mysteries (Unexciting, almost always cycled)
Cut:
Vizier of many faces
Anh-crop crasher
Vizier of the menagrie
Last Updated 02/07/24
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-Censor was pretty decent. It both got used to counter and cycle, and it felt good on both ends. It definitely felt worse than Miscalculation as there were a lot of spots where I missed being able to counter cards due to them being able to pay the potential spike, but it felt really versatile and I think it has earned inclusion due to that. Not sure if I would play it if the cycling was 2, but thankfully that's something I don't need to care about since it obviously costs what it does.
-Commit//Memory was solid. It was nice for my blue deck (specifically storm/combo) to have a way to answer problematic cards for a turn or two. Was used both to counter and remove permanents from play. Highlight was removing an Omnath full of mana during the combat step. The second half was never used, though it seemed great to have that option there eventually especially since I had the Palinchron/Heartbeat of Spring combo in place.
-Nissa was a HOUSE. I lost two games to the Ultimate, once being activated the turn Nissa came into play, the other taking a couple turns to get to. My opponent actually rarely used the 0 ability since he was able to get it to ultimate size so fast and the fireball mode is REALLY strong. It feels like the best UG card.
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