Maybe I'm wrong and the average sequence will be kill their 3 drop with the front half, immediately play back half to trade with their 2 drop and you are ahead. It just seems too fair and slow.
I would disagree, I would like to think I have a better play on turn 4. My guess is Return gets cast much later in the game or the threat of activation keeps them off their gameplan. A non-land 2/2 is also something I'm happier using with a sac effect and since the effect is split I can kill a guy now and get the 2/2 if/when I need it.
Maybe I'm wrong and the average sequence will be kill their 3 drop with the front half, immediately play back half to trade with their 2 drop and you are ahead. It just seems too fair and slow.
If the best thing I can do on turn 4 is make a 2/2, I'm typically pretty sad about that. Of course, I'm less sad than I would be to do nothing on turn 4 (or later), which is why the back half is so useful.
But most of the power of the card is in the front half, and you've already made the judgment that the front half (Ruinous Path) isn't great for your cube. If you don't need more 3cc black creature/planeswalker removal, this one's probably going to ride the bench as well.
we all obviously like instant speed effects, but since most of the appeal of Hero's Downfall, is that it can get rid of a planeswalker, & the only way you're ever going to live the dream & get rid of your opponent's planeswalker @ instant speed w/o them getting @ least 1 activation, is if they really screw up, could an argument not be made, that the potential upside of Never//Return & Ruinous Path possibly outweigh the casting speed of Hero's Downfall? If in your cube experience, Hero's Downfall is most often being cast the turn after a planeswalker hits the battlefield under your opponent's control, is it then, really an "instant"? & if the timing of it being cast is more often than not @ sorcery speed, would not the other 2 cards offer more? yes i know that instants are generally just better, i was just thinking out loud before anyone rips my head off
I think the instant speed on the Downfall is a really significant advantage. And even though they still get an activation before you can destroy it, being an instant is still a tremendous upside, both for spending mana efficiently, being able to play reactive Magic, and being able to prioritize targets with maximum information.
Even with walkers being a huge threat I think Downfall still kills far more creatures than planeswalkers, instant kill is great against creatures for a variety of reason. And even killing walkers there are lots of decks that like to play on an opponents turn.
but wtwlf123, are you really prioritizing targets & maximizing info? if your opponent cast JtMS & you dont have the mana up to kill him on their turn, & dont you have the board to atk him to death, & you have downfall in hand, you arent going to wait for their nxt turn to see if they put griselbrand onto the battlefield, you're going to fire it off to get rid of JtMS. So its effectively a sorcey speed removal spell. & i'm just using JtMS as an example, i'm not saying that he is the end all beat all or that he is a KoS target, & i'm not saying he isnt, & yes i'm aware that my scenario is crude or that you could craft one in which the instant speed of Hero's Downfall is of extreme importance, all i'm saying is that if most of the time, Hero's Downfall is cast in situations like the one i mentioned above, is it really any better than the two sorcery speed options that are now going to be available? its really just food for thought, or maybe something that needs to be logged to see what the data suggests would be better for today's cube environment. i'm mainly just playing devil's advocate here. i by no means have the breadth of experience you do in building, managing or even playing cube
but wtwlf123, are you really prioritizing targets & maximizing info? if your opponent cast JtMS & you dont have the mana up to kill him on their turn, & dont you have the board to atk him to death, & you have downfall in hand, you arent going to wait for their nxt turn to see if they put griselbrand onto the battlefield, you're going to fire it off to get rid of JtMS. So its effectively a sorcey speed removal spell. & i'm just using JtMS as an example, i'm not saying that he is the end all beat all or that he is a KoS target, & i'm not saying he isnt, & yes i'm aware that my scenario is crude or that you could craft one in which the instant speed of Hero's Downfall is of extreme importance, all i'm saying is that if most of the time, Hero's Downfall is cast in situations like the one i mentioned above, is it really any better than the two sorcery speed options that are now going to be available? its really just food for thought, or maybe something that needs to be logged to see what the data suggests would be better for today's cube environment. i'm mainly just playing devil's advocate here. i by no means have the breadth of experience you do in building, managing or even playing cube
Being instant speed is huge in control decks so they can hold mana for counterspells. Ruinous Path is probably cast as a sorcery speed Hero's Downfall over 90% of the time anyways, I would never cut Hero's Downfall in favor of Ruinous Path.
Hero's Downfall is definitely better than Ruinous Path, but this is not Ruinous path. I will say that this is Murder more often than anything, and in that case, I think instant speed is likely slightly better than the graveyard ability. However, the aftermath ability synergizes with loads of random discards, and other things. It even produces a zombie for random synergy. If I were choosing one or the other, I'd choose Never// Return for that reason, but instant speed is important on removal, so I think either argument is totally valid.
In my opinion, greater synergy is better than greater efficiency, and this is far from inefficient.
Instant speed is more important because of all the times you aren't going to hit a planeswalker, and that it virtually doubles your options of when to play what cards and how to use your mana.
In my opinion, greater synergy is better than greater efficiency, and this is far from inefficient.
I agree, but i personally feel like that's assuming that they are equal in their respective greatness. I'm making up numbers, but if one card has 10% more synergy and the other has 40% more efficiency, they don't even out. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think hyper efficient cards often get put in cubes more often than hyper synergistic ones because if they are efficient enough, they fit into most synergies without being a vital part of them
but wtwlf123, are you really prioritizing targets & maximizing info?
Yes. Look, the card doesn't force you to play bad Magic. If they have a Jace in play, and you rip this off the top, obviously you kill it. But what if this is in your hand the turn they play Jace instead of Path? Instead of having to wait until your turn to remove it, you can immediately spend the mana and kill at at EOT. It allows you to use your mana more effectively, and prevents you from having to take an entire turn cycle off without doing something. You lose that utility at sorcery speed.
I would disagree, I would like to think I have a better play on turn 4. My guess is Return gets cast much later in the game or the threat of activation keeps them off their gameplan. A non-land 2/2 is also something I'm happier using with a sac effect and since the effect is split I can kill a guy now and get the 2/2 if/when I need it.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
If the best thing I can do on turn 4 is make a 2/2, I'm typically pretty sad about that. Of course, I'm less sad than I would be to do nothing on turn 4 (or later), which is why the back half is so useful.
But most of the power of the card is in the front half, and you've already made the judgment that the front half (Ruinous Path) isn't great for your cube. If you don't need more 3cc black creature/planeswalker removal, this one's probably going to ride the bench as well.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Being instant speed is huge in control decks so they can hold mana for counterspells. Ruinous Path is probably cast as a sorcery speed Hero's Downfall over 90% of the time anyways, I would never cut Hero's Downfall in favor of Ruinous Path.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
In my opinion, greater synergy is better than greater efficiency, and this is far from inefficient.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I agree, but i personally feel like that's assuming that they are equal in their respective greatness. I'm making up numbers, but if one card has 10% more synergy and the other has 40% more efficiency, they don't even out. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think hyper efficient cards often get put in cubes more often than hyper synergistic ones because if they are efficient enough, they fit into most synergies without being a vital part of them
Yes. Look, the card doesn't force you to play bad Magic. If they have a Jace in play, and you rip this off the top, obviously you kill it. But what if this is in your hand the turn they play Jace instead of Path? Instead of having to wait until your turn to remove it, you can immediately spend the mana and kill at at EOT. It allows you to use your mana more effectively, and prevents you from having to take an entire turn cycle off without doing something. You lose that utility at sorcery speed.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!