I was sure nobody here would like this. I sure didn't at first glance, but I've been eager to replace Stormbreath Dragon for awhile and came to join the discussion. I just can't imagine a deck that REALLY wants this god. To discard a card with this, you'd need to spend 5RR, and the payoff for that is 2 damage to a planeswalker or your opponent, a card in the yard, and closer to animation of the 5/4 indestructible. It seems like a trap to build around and a mediocre playable or sideboard card in already existing archetypes. All that said, I do appreciate that it's rather skill intensive to get this card to work, which could be rewarding. I am also keeping the Archfiend from this set in mind while adding Collective Brutality so if a R/B madness/self discard theme gets enough support in this set, I'll certainly keep this in mind.
In my experience, it's pretty common for red aggressive decks--and a lot of cube decks, for that matter--to be able to play spells and lands until they are down to one card, and then at that point you have a 5/4 indestructible haste guy. Then you have reach, which also works towards turning it on. I think looking at it as a 5RR discard outlet will of course lead you to think it's awful.
I like Avalanche Riders quite a bit, because the effect is pretty unique. It's one of the few remaining answers to problematic lands (and there's a lot of them now) and it also has synergy with the Alesha/Feldon/Recruiter/Vat/'Lark shells that are breaking 2-power ETB triggers. If Hazoret makes it in, it'll be over one of the more redundant aggro curve-toppers.
I agree with this, but I'm not convinced yet that Hazoret can be a straight up replacement Hellrider / Hero. If it turns out that it can, then I'll probably cut Hellrider, but if Hazoret ends up being "decent imitation equipped with more versatility" then I can see Rider getting the cut.
Or maybe I'll just cut Searing Spear or something and make room for ALL the 4 drops!
Yes, I saw this. But being 1 color, being indestructible and not having to discard at random is also pretty important. That, and the fact that it's sometimes (often?) also an indestructible 5/4 creature with haste factors into the evaluation.
Or maybe I'll just cut Searing Spear or something and make room for ALL the 4 drops!
I always think about these types of cuts, but then I think back to when I'm drafting red decks and how I always feel like I can always let the aggro 4 wheel. Like, there is typically only one deck that wants Hellrider/Hero at the table during a draft in my experience, and not only does that deck need more Searing Spears than 4s but other red decks that aren't aggressive would typically prefer the same barring exceptions. (Like this card in non-agro decks, or Avalanche Rider in a recursion deck.) You could probably support 2 aggro decks with four 4s in total, which makes the searing spears of the world all that much more important since those decks rely on the early parts of the curve that much more. Throw in the two-color aggro decks and then you have more 4s then you could ever want for the deck that wants the least amount of them.
Ya, I think with Koth, Hellrider, Hero and Cruiser, I have enough redundancy at the 4cc aggro creature slot to try something more unique/interesting. Of course, this is assuming that Hazoret plays well in testing. It might not even be good enough. But if it is, I feel like I'd rather remove a more redundant tool than something with a less replaceable effect.
Ya, I think with Koth, Hellrider, Hero and Cruiser, I have enough redundancy at the 4cc aggro creature slot to try something more unique/interesting. Of course, this is assuming that Hazoret plays well in testing. It might not even be good enough. But if it is, I feel like I'd rather remove a more redundant tool than something with a less replaceable effect.
I forgot about considering Koth / Cruiser, that does make Hero / Hellrider a more appealing cut.
Yes let's be clear, this may or may not make the cut, and the bar is set pretty high if I am removing a fine card like Hellrider. But it's interesting to entertain.
I forgot about Flametongue Kavu in the 4 slot. While that card has never really been amazing in cube, I'd don't think cutting it for this is the right design choice. So that just moves this new card that much further from inclusion for me. I do think red needs more discard outlets, so it has appeal on that level.
I was sure nobody here would like this. I sure didn't at first glance, but I've been eager to replace Stormbreath Dragon for awhile and came to join the discussion. I just can't imagine a deck that REALLY wants this god. To discard a card with this, you'd need to spend 5RR, and the payoff for that is 2 damage to a planeswalker or your opponent, a card in the yard, and closer to animation of the 5/4 indestructible. It seems like a trap to build around and a mediocre playable or sideboard card in already existing archetypes. All that said, I do appreciate that it's rather skill intensive to get this card to work, which could be rewarding. I am also keeping the Archfiend from this set in mind while adding Collective Brutality so if a R/B madness/self discard theme gets enough support in this set, I'll certainly keep this in mind.
Collective Brutality seems certainly like a card to play with. Pitching all you cards at once in order to get it active the God could be great! RB is no doubt the best home for this card.
I just don't like this God. Comparing Gods, Purphoros is incredible because he rewards something most decks already wants to do (play creatures). This guy encourages you to embrace card disadvantage and pay for it too. Comparing this to a somewhat similar red 4-drop creature, Pia and Kiran Nalaar offers more flexibility, evasive damage, and the ability to hit creatures. I'm about the least enthusiastic player of Hero of Oxid Ridge and I couldn't even cut that for this. I really think this guy needed to say two cards or less or not have a blocking restriction for the raw power to be a larger factor in my consideration of this card. It's a hard pass for me at 450 unpowered.
Somehow it reminds me of Cursed Scroll, which is different in a variety of obvious ways.
The God condition is relatively easy to pull off, and unlike devotion, harder to disrupt. It probably won't happen on curve though.
Purphoros>>>>>>this card in all the archetypes mentioned in this thread.
I think it's the exact opposite actually, Hazoret is straight up better in aggro and most other archetypes besides tokens (not that Hazoret is any great in most of those archetypes), but Hazoret doesn't have the archetype appeal that Purphoros has. Although Purphoros only really shines in a heavy token deck, it's a big reason to go into that archetype in the first place.
The only cube that has space for this would have to be large indeed. Pass. Purphoros>>>>>>this card in all the archetypes mentioned in this thread.
I'm at 450 and am going to test this over Hero of Oxid Ridge. Splashable cost, more flexible. Works in aggro and Wildfire, whereas Hero and Hellrider are more limited. This seems better in heavy black stax lists, too. Certainly it's more castable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I think people seriously overestimate the need to build around this. I'd even say, that if it turns out you need to build around it, it will not be cubeable. Luckily, getting to one card hands in aggro is quite trivial, and a 5/4 haste indestructible that gives infinite reach is a big deal. What would control decks do once you have this on the table? They have not really stabilized until it is gone, and it is hard to remove.
I like this more than Purphoros. Purphoros very often does nothing the turn you cast it. You can build around it to impressive results, but it is not an aggro card. In red aggro decks, you will not topdeck a creature even every other turn. I have not seen Purphoros animated in cube yet.
I think people seriously overestimate the need to build around this. I'd even say, that if it turns out you need to build around it, it will not be cubeable. Luckily, getting to one card hands in aggro is quite trivial, and a 5/4 haste indestructible that gives infinite reach is a big deal. What would control decks do once you have this on the table? They have not really stabilized until it is gone, and it is hard to remove.
I like this more than Purphoros. Purphoros very often does nothing the turn you cast it. You can build around it to impressive results, but it is not an aggro card. In red aggro decks, you will not topdeck a creature even every other turn. I have not seen Purphoros animated in cube yet.
Hazoret and Purphoros are two completely different cards though. Purphoros is a tokens signpost / payoff card, NOT an aggro card and typically doesn't want or need to be animated. Hazoret seems like it'll play best in aggro / stax shells and is possibly playable in a few other archetypes too.
I'll echo that this is the opposite of Purphoros in terms of functionality. You get the most value out of Purphoros by saving cards for later; Hazoret rewards a more aggressive play style. Purphoros is a bit limited in terms of archetypes; Hazoret could potentially be used outside of aggro due to surviving fires and wraths and still being a creature. Hazoret can be a surprise-I-win kind of topdeck on an empty board, whereas a topdecked Purphoros does nothing.
In terms of potential cuts if Hazoret is to be included/tested, I think red might not need as many strictly aggro four-drops as it has in most cubes nowadays. As said here before, we have Fleetwheel Cruiser as a recent addition, and in general red aggro doesn't want that many fours in its main. There's also the factor of the drafting mechanics around red aggro-viable cards: at least in my group, almost everyone in the table will pick red burn highly in the first pack, and everybody knows Rx aggro is great. This often leads to just one player playing red as their primary aggro color because others have decided to just keep what burn they managed to pick and build something else.
I like the idea of an aggro 4-drop that plays differently than Hellrider/Hero, and I think this could even turn out to be better than them.
Those creatures can be effectivly offline too - when the opponent has blockers. Hazoret always provides reach on an indestructible body and you only need to be playing your cards to awaken him. Overextening into a wrath is much less of a problenm when you have an indestructible beater on the board. Really looking forward to testing him.
I would almost certainly suggest testing this over either hero or hellrider if you were running both, as I agree with what void is saying. If you only have one or the other (and I think Hellrider is more powerful than Hero personally), I'm not convinced that's a good swap and I'd be looking at other candidates personally.
Purphoros very often does nothing the turn you cast it. You can build around it to impressive results, but it is not an aggro card. In red aggro decks, you will not topdeck a creature even every other turn. I have not seen Purphoros animated in cube yet.
Red aggro wants to cast its 4 drops on turn 4. This card does literal nothing on turn 4, and at best sets up for 3 mana 2 damage on turn 5. Not impressive at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Or planeswalkers. Yes, not hitting creatures is something of a drawback, but binning a planeswalker is pretty freaking nice.
My Eternal Cube on CubeTutor| |My Reject Rare Cube on CubeTutor| |My Peasant Cube on CubeTutor
I used to write for MTGS, including Cranial Insertion and cube articles. Good on you if you can find those after the upgrade.
Especially since they live through wildfire as well.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
In my experience, it's pretty common for red aggressive decks--and a lot of cube decks, for that matter--to be able to play spells and lands until they are down to one card, and then at that point you have a 5/4 indestructible haste guy. Then you have reach, which also works towards turning it on. I think looking at it as a 5RR discard outlet will of course lead you to think it's awful.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I agree with this, but I'm not convinced yet that Hazoret can be a straight up replacement Hellrider / Hero. If it turns out that it can, then I'll probably cut Hellrider, but if Hazoret ends up being "decent imitation equipped with more versatility" then I can see Rider getting the cut.
Or maybe I'll just cut Searing Spear or something and make room for ALL the 4 drops!
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Yes, I saw this. But being 1 color, being indestructible and not having to discard at random is also pretty important. That, and the fact that it's sometimes (often?) also an indestructible 5/4 creature with haste factors into the evaluation.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I always think about these types of cuts, but then I think back to when I'm drafting red decks and how I always feel like I can always let the aggro 4 wheel. Like, there is typically only one deck that wants Hellrider/Hero at the table during a draft in my experience, and not only does that deck need more Searing Spears than 4s but other red decks that aren't aggressive would typically prefer the same barring exceptions. (Like this card in non-agro decks, or Avalanche Rider in a recursion deck.) You could probably support 2 aggro decks with four 4s in total, which makes the searing spears of the world all that much more important since those decks rely on the early parts of the curve that much more. Throw in the two-color aggro decks and then you have more 4s then you could ever want for the deck that wants the least amount of them.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I'm not either, but I am convinced it can't be a replacement Avalanche Riders.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I forgot about considering Koth / Cruiser, that does make Hero / Hellrider a more appealing cut.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Flametongue is super solid, FTK all day.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Collective Brutality seems certainly like a card to play with. Pitching all you cards at once in order to get it active the God could be great! RB is no doubt the best home for this card.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
The God condition is relatively easy to pull off, and unlike devotion, harder to disrupt. It probably won't happen on curve though.
My verdict for now is a pass at 450 unpowered.
I think it's the exact opposite actually, Hazoret is straight up better in aggro and most other archetypes besides tokens (not that Hazoret is any great in most of those archetypes), but Hazoret doesn't have the archetype appeal that Purphoros has. Although Purphoros only really shines in a heavy token deck, it's a big reason to go into that archetype in the first place.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I'm at 450 and am going to test this over Hero of Oxid Ridge. Splashable cost, more flexible. Works in aggro and Wildfire, whereas Hero and Hellrider are more limited. This seems better in heavy black stax lists, too. Certainly it's more castable.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I like this more than Purphoros. Purphoros very often does nothing the turn you cast it. You can build around it to impressive results, but it is not an aggro card. In red aggro decks, you will not topdeck a creature even every other turn. I have not seen Purphoros animated in cube yet.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Hazoret and Purphoros are two completely different cards though. Purphoros is a tokens signpost / payoff card, NOT an aggro card and typically doesn't want or need to be animated. Hazoret seems like it'll play best in aggro / stax shells and is possibly playable in a few other archetypes too.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
In terms of potential cuts if Hazoret is to be included/tested, I think red might not need as many strictly aggro four-drops as it has in most cubes nowadays. As said here before, we have Fleetwheel Cruiser as a recent addition, and in general red aggro doesn't want that many fours in its main. There's also the factor of the drafting mechanics around red aggro-viable cards: at least in my group, almost everyone in the table will pick red burn highly in the first pack, and everybody knows Rx aggro is great. This often leads to just one player playing red as their primary aggro color because others have decided to just keep what burn they managed to pick and build something else.
Those creatures can be effectivly offline too - when the opponent has blockers. Hazoret always provides reach on an indestructible body and you only need to be playing your cards to awaken him. Overextening into a wrath is much less of a problenm when you have an indestructible beater on the board. Really looking forward to testing him.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Red aggro wants to cast its 4 drops on turn 4. This card does literal nothing on turn 4, and at best sets up for 3 mana 2 damage on turn 5. Not impressive at all.