Trike was never castable for less than 6 mana. Ballista is also a mana sink - sometimes the artifact decks are able to produce absurd amounts with all the fast mana/Tolarian Academy/Metalworker. Plus this is fetchable with Trinket Mage. Also much better with Channel. I think this has more homes than Scuttling Doom Engine in my cube (and I no longer play Triskelion).
I like Trike more (blink/copy/etb abuse, etc), but this creature is cool too. It's a Trinket Mage/Recruiter(s) target, it can scale, it's also a mana sink, and it's a colorless way to deal with early creatures. Paying 2 to kill a Birds, Thalia or Dark Confidant, etc isn't a bad baseline to start at. I'm considering this for some extended testing time.
Definitely not a replacement to Trike, but a great supplement to it. I do like the scalability and colorless removal is quite the premium. I love how I can just pay 2 mana to kill a Mother of Runes, or 4 mana to take out a Bob + X. It's a great mana sink and can break through stalemates. Should get better overtime as we get more ways to put +1/+1 counters on creatures. I'll probably give this a shot for some very extensive testing.
I'm a fan. Auto-test for me.
I think this card is much better than triskellion. Not in every deck, but I see the ceiling as much higher in a powered cube.
In decks that have a high mana ceiling (channel/gaea's cradle/tolarian academy/regal behemoth/mirrari's wake), I think this card will be exactly what you are looking for.
I think the versatility of being both a TUTORABLE, game ending bomb in the late game AND a removal spell in the early game is huge game for a ramp deck.
Taking out an early dark confidant, young pyromancer, mana elf, agro creature etc. Is something you'd love to have access to, but not if it impedes your primary gameplan.
I have a fond appreciation for X spells in powered cube, and this one does not disappoint.
I think this card is a big sleeper. Same ability as Trike, same stats as Hangarback Walker, same scalability as Everflowing Chalice... Still value in bouncing / recurring from hand to graveyard via Regrowth / Zombify effects. I don't think it's better than Trike and it'll be a very hard sell to people that don't play Trike. However, there's value at all points in the curve and it's something you can continually dump your mana into as a fattie / removal spell / finisher.
Name google-translates to walking ballista, advancing ballista, balloon, and border ballista.
I'm not sure about this. XX for an X/X is terrible on its own. 4 for a +1/+1 counter isn't good either. With the ping ability, maybe good and maybe no.
Although the use in casual isn't great, the combo potential is great here. Looks to me like a far better triskelion, meaning it goes straight into Mikaeus.
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I'm not really feeling this. Having to pay 4 mana to deal 2 damage or get a 2/2? 4 mana to get a +1/+1 counter? in the words of wtwlf "I don't think that's how I want to spend 4 mana in cube."
Maybe its because I have never played with Triskellion, but I feel like this is overcosted for the effects it provides. Mind you I am also in an unpowered environment where fast mana is limited. Also my cube has no protection so colourless removal isn't as valuable or important.
surprised to see s much excitement about this card. Am I really misjudging this it that badly?
I'm not really feeling this. Having to pay 4 mana to deal 2 damage or get a 2/2? 4 mana to get a +1/+1 counter? in the words of wtwlf "I don't think that's how I want to spend 4 mana in cube."
Maybe its because I have never played with Triskellion, but I feel like this is overcosted for the effects it provides. Mind you I am also in an unpowered environment where fast mana is limited. Also my cube has no protection so colourless removal isn't as valuable or important.
surprised to see s much excitement about this card. Am I really misjudging this it that badly?
X spell's value are in their versatility and scalability. Judging it as a fixed 4 mana card for it's 4 mana value is not remotely fair to the card.
Sphinx's revelation was one of the most powerful cards in standard at the time. Would you pay 4 mana to draw 1 card and gain 1 life?
But I would agree this card is much worse in an unpowered cube that doesn't support super ramp.
A couple people seem to be sleeping on the 4 mana: +1/+1 counter ability too. It's far from flavour text.
in the words of wtwlf "I don't think that's how I want to spend 4 mana in cube."
Except this IS how I want to be spending 4 mana in the cube.
But that's because it doesn't have to be played for 4 mana. It would be akin to saying Everflowing Chalice sucks because it's just Sisay's Ring for 4 mana, and nobody plays that card.
The scalability when it's played, the ability to grow it when it's down, and the interactions it has with other cards in the cube, the ceiling when you're flooded ...all have to be evaluated.
This card is the perfect example of why I love this forum. I read this card and immediately thought " inefficient blah" but other perspectives have broadened my evaluation. I'll probably be testing Mr. Ballista as a result.
Also, I think it bears noting that I have a really poor history of evaluating colorless x creatures. Anyone remember the endless Endless One debate? Haha.
I'm not really feeling this. Having to pay 4 mana to deal 2 damage or get a 2/2? 4 mana to get a +1/+1 counter? in the words of wtwlf "I don't think that's how I want to spend 4 mana in cube."
Maybe its because I have never played with Triskellion, but I feel like this is overcosted for the effects it provides. Mind you I am also in an unpowered environment where fast mana is limited. Also my cube has no protection so colourless removal isn't as valuable or important.
surprised to see s much excitement about this card. Am I really misjudging this it that badly?
X spell's value are in their versatility and scalability. Judging it as a fixed 4 mana card for it's 4 mana value is not remotely fair to the card.
Sphinx's revelation was one of the most powerful cards in standard at the time. Would you pay 4 mana to draw 1 card and gain 1 life?
But I would agree this card is much worse in an unpowered cube that doesn't support super ramp.
A couple people seem to be sleeping on the 4 mana: +1/+1 counter ability too. It's far from flavour text.
The revelation analogy is nice. But with every 1 X mana you sink into revelation you are getting more than 1 mana's value so it quickly gains you more value than mana spent to cast it. New Trisk requires 2 mana for every counter, and 4 mana for each extra counter. Even when it scales up you are always behind on value. its like playing a 6 mana arc lightning.
Of course this is looking at it strictly from a damage position and not valuing its ability to be a 5/5 creature which can block, smash, plus deal 5 damage to the face if your opponent tries to kill it. (given you can sink 10 mana into it) at 8 mana it seems good, anything more it seems great, but for that cmc it better win you the game which i don't think this card can guarantee.
I think I'm misjudging this as well because I'm not impressed at all. I don't like Triskelion at all, so maybe I'm comparing the two and forming a biased opinion based on that. I like the example of Everflowing Chalice and the scalability of this guy, but I'm not sure that's enough. I feel like this guy is just below par at pretty much every mana cost. Adding in the ability to pump your unused mana into him to add counters is a plus (no pun intended), but four seems like a lot. I think I'll wait for some testing results from others here before I consider this guy for my own list. If I hadn't already cut Masticore, I could see this going into that slot.
IIRC, This forum slept on hangarback walker pretty hard, and many similar arguments about the XX cost and it's value on curve were used to break it down.
Now just because hangarback was solid, doesn't mean this guy will be, but it's interesting to note the pattern of XX artifact creatures
Smalll note, given a tinker deck comes up every other draft or so, having a creature that serves both as a win con, or an early artifact to sac to tinker is a nice added benefit when considering this card's niche.
I may put in Hangarback walker and walking ballista after all, to test them. I still have the masticores and everyone in my group seems to be turned off by the drawbacks.
I like the baseline that's been proposed. 2 colorless kill a Birds, Bob, whatever is something I'd include. Anything on top of that is confusing people, I think. I understand the thought process of "at every point it's behind the curve" but the colorless cost and versatility really make up for that. I'm throwing it in, but I think it will be underappreciated until I can pick it up and show it off. Then again, I could be all wrong and maybe it's just awful and I'll wish I'd had something better. I happen to have a soft artifact section, so there's lots of room for cuts. I think this will just have to be tested to really get a grip on how it performs in cube.
What do you think about Hangarback Walker? I never tested it, but it won me one pre-release and one draft...
This new card seems very good. Versatile, deals colorless damage so it bypass protection and killing dorks efficiently in any nonred deck is pretty appealing.
What do you think about Hangarback Walker? I never tested it, but it won me one pre-release and one draft...
I like hangarback substantially more. playing it on curve it always has the same p/t as new triskellion but being able to gain a counter for 1 mana per turn instead of 4 is huge. playing hangarback on turn two means you can have a 3/3 by turn 4 where you can only have a 2/2 new trisk by this time. If hangarback isn't removed by the time its a 4/4 a double lingering souls on death trigger is pretty nuts. if new triskellion isn't removed by the time its a 4/4 it hurts to kill, but it should considering it would be an 8 drop creature at that point.
Scalable / reloadable Triskelion is nice but not being able to recur hurts. Seems bonkers for Vintage and definitely intriguing for cube. Thoughts?
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4 mana seems steep to me tho. I wish there were a different way to get counters up, like tap add a counter or pay 3.
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I think this card is much better than triskellion. Not in every deck, but I see the ceiling as much higher in a powered cube.
In decks that have a high mana ceiling (channel/gaea's cradle/tolarian academy/regal behemoth/mirrari's wake), I think this card will be exactly what you are looking for.
I think the versatility of being both a TUTORABLE, game ending bomb in the late game AND a removal spell in the early game is huge game for a ramp deck.
Taking out an early dark confidant, young pyromancer, mana elf, agro creature etc. Is something you'd love to have access to, but not if it impedes your primary gameplan.
I have a fond appreciation for X spells in powered cube, and this one does not disappoint.
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I'm not sure about this. XX for an X/X is terrible on its own. 4 for a +1/+1 counter isn't good either. With the ping ability, maybe good and maybe no.
Although the use in casual isn't great, the combo potential is great here. Looks to me like a far better triskelion, meaning it goes straight into Mikaeus.
WMy other, WIP casual deck: Zero to Hero
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Maybe its because I have never played with Triskellion, but I feel like this is overcosted for the effects it provides. Mind you I am also in an unpowered environment where fast mana is limited. Also my cube has no protection so colourless removal isn't as valuable or important.
surprised to see s much excitement about this card. Am I really misjudging this it that badly?
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X spell's value are in their versatility and scalability. Judging it as a fixed 4 mana card for it's 4 mana value is not remotely fair to the card.
Sphinx's revelation was one of the most powerful cards in standard at the time. Would you pay 4 mana to draw 1 card and gain 1 life?
But I would agree this card is much worse in an unpowered cube that doesn't support super ramp.
A couple people seem to be sleeping on the 4 mana: +1/+1 counter ability too. It's far from flavour text.
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Except this IS how I want to be spending 4 mana in the cube.
But that's because it doesn't have to be played for 4 mana. It would be akin to saying Everflowing Chalice sucks because it's just Sisay's Ring for 4 mana, and nobody plays that card.
The scalability when it's played, the ability to grow it when it's down, and the interactions it has with other cards in the cube, the ceiling when you're flooded ...all have to be evaluated.
I think so, yes.
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Also, I think it bears noting that I have a really poor history of evaluating colorless x creatures. Anyone remember the endless Endless One debate? Haha.
The revelation analogy is nice. But with every 1 X mana you sink into revelation you are getting more than 1 mana's value so it quickly gains you more value than mana spent to cast it. New Trisk requires 2 mana for every counter, and 4 mana for each extra counter. Even when it scales up you are always behind on value. its like playing a 6 mana arc lightning.
Of course this is looking at it strictly from a damage position and not valuing its ability to be a 5/5 creature which can block, smash, plus deal 5 damage to the face if your opponent tries to kill it. (given you can sink 10 mana into it) at 8 mana it seems good, anything more it seems great, but for that cmc it better win you the game which i don't think this card can guarantee.
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Now just because hangarback was solid, doesn't mean this guy will be, but it's interesting to note the pattern of XX artifact creatures
Smalll note, given a tinker deck comes up every other draft or so, having a creature that serves both as a win con, or an early artifact to sac to tinker is a nice added benefit when considering this card's niche.
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This new card seems very good. Versatile, deals colorless damage so it bypass protection and killing dorks efficiently in any nonred deck is pretty appealing.
I like hangarback substantially more. playing it on curve it always has the same p/t as new triskellion but being able to gain a counter for 1 mana per turn instead of 4 is huge. playing hangarback on turn two means you can have a 3/3 by turn 4 where you can only have a 2/2 new trisk by this time. If hangarback isn't removed by the time its a 4/4 a double lingering souls on death trigger is pretty nuts. if new triskellion isn't removed by the time its a 4/4 it hurts to kill, but it should considering it would be an 8 drop creature at that point.