But, nobody is suggesting cutting Vandal for it... If it plays like Vandal the vast majority of the time, is occasionally a huge blowout when you clip 2+ targets, and rarely ever performs worse than that ...why wouldn't I want to run it? Like, the floor of not having a Gray Ogre option isn't that bad a floor if you never cast Vandal as an Ogre anyways. The floor almost doesn't exist, since I can't even recall it ever being an issue for Vandal even once. But the ceiling of hitting 2+ artifacts happens often enough to be relevant. And the rest of the time, it's a Manic Vandal! ...which is a proven commodity. This is nothing but a clear include to me.
The bar for Release the Gremlins to be superior than the existing option (Vandal) is 2 targets.
Full disclosure: I would cube Manic Vandal first before considering Release the Gremlins. That being said, there are tradeoffs for being a sorcery / creature. Sure, I can't blink / recur Release the Gremlins, but Manic Vandal doesn't trigger Young Pyromancer / Monestary Mentor, can't be flashbacked by Snapcaster Mage / Jace VP, etc. Manic Vandal fits more in Survival of the Fittest / Recurring Nightmare shells where RtG supports Spells Matters shells. In my experience, creature based strategies really don't need much help in my cube but Spells Matters can always use a boost. There are plenty of scenarios where there's only one artifact to target that Gremlins will outperform Vandal.
Technically, Manic Vandal absolute floor is actually 2R 2/2 ETB: Destroy your own artifact, if you are the only one with artifact in play. So, not guaranteed to be grey ogre
So you're actually saying it generally performs like Manic Vandal and we agree on that much.
Correct. I think it will be a Manic Vandal the majority of the time. Sometimes a lot better when you can play it in 4R+ mode and blow up multiple artifacts. And I think that mode will show up more often than the Gray Ogre mode will (by a lot, actually) so my opinion on the card is basically: If you think Manic Vandal is good enough for the cube, Release the Gremlins should be given some serious consideration because it'll be just as good if not better in most situations.
I actually think Release the Gremlins may be slightly better than Manic Vandal in our environment (powered, many mana rocks, some support for an artifact deck). Most of the time the cards will play the same, but I think hitting more than one artifact will come up a lot more often than having no target.
When you have Manic Vandal without a target, most of the time I wouldn't cast it anyway, unless I'm really desperate for a chump blocker. The (only?) other situation where you would want a Grey Orge, would be to carry equipment, but you can't cast Vandal if your opponent has no artifact and you already have equipment out.
The bigger downside is not being a creature. I would consider reanimating Vandal a fringe case, but being able to find it with the Recruiters or Wordly Tutor is important.
The bigger downside is not being a creature. I would consider reanimating Vandal a fringe case, but being able to find it with the Recruiters or Wordly Tutor is important.
Agreed. And while I do feel like the creatures interactions are more numerous/important than the spell ones, the spell interactions are also pretty sweet. This will be nice with Swiftspear/Abbot prowess triggers, Pyromancer & Mentor tokens, a target for Mystical Tutor, being cheaper with Baral, removing a Thing in the Ice counter, getting flashed-back by Snapcaster and Vryn's Prodigy, etc.
..........
Another thing that nobody has really mentioned is the ability to blow up your own manafacts in the late game to generate extra bodies when you don't need the extra mana anymore. Playing this for 6R, blowing up your opponent's only artifact alongside 2 of yours may not seem ideal, but sometimes you'll just be better off with the 6-power and 3 bodies... another mark of flexibility this has on some boards over Vandal and friends.
The bigger downside is not being a creature. I would consider reanimating Vandal a fringe case, but being able to find it with the Recruiters or Wordly Tutor is important.
Agreed. And while I do feel like the creatures interactions are more numerous/important than the spell ones, the spell interactions are also pretty sweet. This will be nice with Swiftspear/Abbot prowess triggers, Pyromancer & Mentor tokens, a target for Mystical Tutor, being cheaper with Baral, removing a Thing in the Ice counter, getting flashed-back by Snapcaster and Vryn's Prodigy, etc.
..........
Another thing that nobody has really mentioned is the ability to blow up your own manafacts in the late game to generate extra bodies when you don't need the extra mana anymore. Playing this for 6R, blowing up your opponent's only artifact alongside 2 of yours may not seem ideal, but sometimes you'll just be better off with the 6-power and 3 bodies... another mark of flexibility this has on some boards over Vandal and friends.
Oh I can see crushing my own board with the Red God out. I may give this a go as my artifact count continues to climb. Manic Vandal as a grew ogre usually means it is getting sideboarded out. In the games where vandal is decent this will probably be better. That said I think I still like smash a bit more but in the 450 range this seems alright, and a hell of a lot higher ceiling. After some reps these two might switch positions but I don't see it passing Fiery Confluence or Kolaghan's Command.
The bigger downside is not being a creature. I would consider reanimating Vandal a fringe case, but being able to find it with the Recruiters or Wordly Tutor is important.
Agreed. And while I do feel like the creatures interactions are more numerous/important than the spell ones, the spell interactions are also pretty sweet. This will be nice with Swiftspear/Abbot prowess triggers, Pyromancer & Mentor tokens, a target for Mystical Tutor, being cheaper with Baral, removing a Thing in the Ice counter, getting flashed-back by Snapcaster and Vryn's Prodigy, etc.
We're making a concerted effort in the cube construction to try to reduce the number of effects stapled to creatures, in favour of more varied fare. In red and blue in particular. It's kind of an ongoing process, however...
Another thing that nobody has really mentioned is the ability to blow up your own manafacts in the late game to generate extra bodies when you don't need the extra mana anymore. Playing this for 6R, blowing up your opponent's only artifact alongside 2 of yours may not seem ideal, but sometimes you'll just be better off with the 6-power and 3 bodies... another mark of flexibility this has on some boards over Vandal and friends.
The bigger downside is not being a creature. I would consider reanimating Vandal a fringe case, but being able to find it with the Recruiters or Wordly Tutor is important.
Agreed. And while I do feel like the creatures interactions are more numerous/important than the spell ones, the spell interactions are also pretty sweet. This will be nice with Swiftspear/Abbot prowess triggers, Pyromancer & Mentor tokens, a target for Mystical Tutor, being cheaper with Baral, removing a Thing in the Ice counter, getting flashed-back by Snapcaster and Vryn's Prodigy, etc.
We're making a concerted effort in the cube construction to try to reduce the number of effects stapled to creatures, in favour of more varied fare. In red and blue in particular. It's kind of an ongoing process, however...
If I'm a red aggro drafter I sometimes find myself getting nervous going into pack 3 if I haven't picked up any artifact destruction. Those effects are so important in every non-combo deck, even in unpowered - I'm really excited to add this card to my red section.
Got this as my pre-release promo and it's been doing some serious work. My cube has a comparable artifact density to KLD / AER limited so I'm pretty hopeful about this card in my cube where it will have more synergies.
Got this as my pre-release promo and it's been doing some serious work. My cube has a comparable artifact density to KLD / AER limited so I'm pretty hopeful about this card in my cube where it will have more synergies.
Got this as my pre-release promo and it's been doing some serious work. My cube has a comparable artifact density to KLD / AER limited so I'm pretty hopeful about this card in my cube where it will have more synergies.
What is your artifact density? Mine is about 10%.
60 artifact cards and 5-ish non-artifact cards that create artifact tokens, so 65/540 = slightly over 12%.
Something I just noticed: Ran the filter through wtwlf123's powered cube to see how Release the Gremlins compares from his cube to mine and I guess I run more artifacts despite being unpowered? Cubetutor currently has him at 56 artifacts, but he'll probably have more than me post-AER update on Cubetutor since his changelog says he's adding the whole signet cycle.
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Full disclosure: I would cube Manic Vandal first before considering Release the Gremlins. That being said, there are tradeoffs for being a sorcery / creature. Sure, I can't blink / recur Release the Gremlins, but Manic Vandal doesn't trigger Young Pyromancer / Monestary Mentor, can't be flashbacked by Snapcaster Mage / Jace VP, etc. Manic Vandal fits more in Survival of the Fittest / Recurring Nightmare shells where RtG supports Spells Matters shells. In my experience, creature based strategies really don't need much help in my cube but Spells Matters can always use a boost. There are plenty of scenarios where there's only one artifact to target that Gremlins will outperform Vandal.
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Then you clearly didn't read a single thing I posted. Goodness.
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Correct. I think it will be a Manic Vandal the majority of the time. Sometimes a lot better when you can play it in 4R+ mode and blow up multiple artifacts. And I think that mode will show up more often than the Gray Ogre mode will (by a lot, actually) so my opinion on the card is basically: If you think Manic Vandal is good enough for the cube, Release the Gremlins should be given some serious consideration because it'll be just as good if not better in most situations.
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When you have Manic Vandal without a target, most of the time I wouldn't cast it anyway, unless I'm really desperate for a chump blocker. The (only?) other situation where you would want a Grey Orge, would be to carry equipment, but you can't cast Vandal if your opponent has no artifact and you already have equipment out.
The bigger downside is not being a creature. I would consider reanimating Vandal a fringe case, but being able to find it with the Recruiters or Wordly Tutor is important.
Agreed. And while I do feel like the creatures interactions are more numerous/important than the spell ones, the spell interactions are also pretty sweet. This will be nice with Swiftspear/Abbot prowess triggers, Pyromancer & Mentor tokens, a target for Mystical Tutor, being cheaper with Baral, removing a Thing in the Ice counter, getting flashed-back by Snapcaster and Vryn's Prodigy, etc.
..........
Another thing that nobody has really mentioned is the ability to blow up your own manafacts in the late game to generate extra bodies when you don't need the extra mana anymore. Playing this for 6R, blowing up your opponent's only artifact alongside 2 of yours may not seem ideal, but sometimes you'll just be better off with the 6-power and 3 bodies... another mark of flexibility this has on some boards over Vandal and friends.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Oh I can see crushing my own board with the Red God out. I may give this a go as my artifact count continues to climb. Manic Vandal as a grew ogre usually means it is getting sideboarded out. In the games where vandal is decent this will probably be better. That said I think I still like smash a bit more but in the 450 range this seems alright, and a hell of a lot higher ceiling. After some reps these two might switch positions but I don't see it passing Fiery Confluence or Kolaghan's Command.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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We're making a concerted effort in the cube construction to try to reduce the number of effects stapled to creatures, in favour of more varied fare. In red and blue in particular. It's kind of an ongoing process, however...
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That is a good point I haven't considered
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What is your artifact density? Mine is about 10%.
60 artifact cards and 5-ish non-artifact cards that create artifact tokens, so 65/540 = slightly over 12%.
Something I just noticed: Ran the filter through wtwlf123's powered cube to see how Release the Gremlins compares from his cube to mine and I guess I run more artifacts despite being unpowered? Cubetutor currently has him at 56 artifacts, but he'll probably have more than me post-AER update on Cubetutor since his changelog says he's adding the whole signet cycle.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yeah, that's a great day for the gremlins!
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