Crew 3 is too much, I'm going to have to pass. I'm still running Skyship but it's going to be the first vehicle to get cut and Crew 3 is going to be the reason. Cool card though.
I think you guys might come around to this card after giving it some testing and seeing where it settles. In my limited playing experience where it came down early and the opponent had a planeswalker out it was really tough to beat.
How often do you actually want to tick your planeswalker down to crew this thing? In my experience, if you're ticking a planeswalker down, you're generally doing it to either get serious value or you're forced to do it out of necessity. If you're ticking your planeswalker up, you're often banking loyalty to reuse a minus ability (ajani vengeant, Jace beleren) or you're shooting for an ultimate. I'm sure there would be times when I would be fine with using loyalty to crew but I can't envision a scenario where that would be the actual game plan.
I see what you mean. In my opinion, most if not all planeswalkers in the cube have a playable +1 ability, so utilizing that to gain more loyalty is not necessarily a negative.
The vehicle is really hard to deal with conventionally because you have to use instant speed removal or artifact removal/permanent removal to get rid of it. Often you have to two for one yourself, which allows the planeswalker to remain alive and continue stabilizing.
Also, 2 cmc is a really good casting cost for control decks because it is much easier to cast while holding counter mana up (force spike, remand).
With flying and vigilance, this should usually be able to protect your planewalker pretty well. Paying 1 loyality is a good deal if it blocks a creature attacking your walker (or better: just having the option will often deter their attack).
Still, as has been said, a card that is only any good when you have a planeswalker out is too narrow. And crew 3 is just to much for a 4/4. The flying will occasionally be good, but vigilance isn't going to matter much (unless you have a walker, or a bunch of beast tokens maybe).
Even when you do have a 'walker out, {-1} loyalty is still a meaningful cost to activate it. There are a lot of cases where I want/need my loyalty more than I want to use it to activate my vehicle. And in those cases, it'll have to default to the Crew 3 cost to do anything ...which is steep.
While Smuggler's Copter is known as the planeswalker killer, I see Heart of Kiran as the planeswalker bodyguard. Having a 4/4 flyer standing on guard is hard for your opponent to attack into, especially early in the game. Summoning sick creatures can make great pilots for Heart on offense, but I feel that's bonus to its main purpose of keeping your buddies alive.
Sometimes you even need a way to use the loyalty on a planeswalker. Cards like Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Nissa, Worldwaker who don't have non-ultimate minus abilities can benefit greatly by having a loyalty sink. Daretti, Scrap Savant's loyalty can often get out of hand, and it allows Garruk Relentless to automatically flip. Basically, this is a great card to have on the battlefield IF(!) you have a planeswalker out. Is that worth a slot in your cube or is it just too narrow? Personally, I can't wait to try it.
I tested it for a brief window.. Either wheeled in draft, or got smashed by artifact destruction every time I played it and decided to scrap it without adequate testing.
Tempted to revist it as I always enjoy playing cards that perform well at the pro tour (play group likes playing with cards that does well in constructed).
Crew 3 makes this card very inconsistent because most 2cmc / 3cmc creatures don't have 3 power by themselves. HoK is thriving in Standard right now since decks can run 4 copies of Scrapheap Scrounger / Veteran Motorist / Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
It's a very hit or miss card. If you curve this into beefy creatures/walkers, it might be the strongest T2 play in the format. If you don't, you might as well be playing Kitesail.
The difference between crew 2 and crew 3 is enormous. Would test this with crew 2, but crew 3 is just too steep. And the alternative crew cost will come up less than in constructed, so that isn't a big draw, either.
There's a lot of problems I forsee with this card even if we get more 3-powered creatures / 3-cmc PWers that can add counters and defend themself at the same time like Nissa, VoZ / Daretti 2.0
- Not sure if I want to live in a world with a bunch of Nissa / Daretti type cards.
- I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth with HoK unless I'm able to use it for both offense and defense in the same turn cycle since I'm only getting a 1/+1 and flying for my troubles.
- Cube tends to have plenty of premium removal that can deal with both HoK / anything that can Crew it. I believe it's too easy to pseudo 2 for 1 by knocking out any 3-power creatures to keep HoK offline.
It's a very hit or miss card. If you curve this into beefy creatures/walkers, it might be the strongest T2 play in the format. If you don't, you might as well be playing Kitesail.
Did you test it for a while?
A lot of theory crafting going on here, which I agree with the logic, I would love to here some proper anecdotal experience from someone who has a medium+ sample size on it.
There's a few successful standard cards that fall under peoples radar here due to misplaced analysis. (Torrential gearhulk stands out to me most in recent memory, I underestimated that card drastically in cube from analysis alone).
A lot of theory crafting going on here, which I agree with the logic, I would love to here some proper anecdotal experience from someone who has a medium+ sample size on it.
A lot of theory crafting going on here, which I agree with the logic, I would love to here some proper anecdotal experience from someone who has a medium+ sample size on it.
Well written review, enjoyed it quite a bit.
Sweet BR midrange deck you used to highlight heart of kiran, think that's a great example of a good deck for it.
Offtopic but how have you found gonti, lord of luxury?
I tend to run more vehicles than the average cube, as it seems that equipment tends to "lean non-aggressive" outside of the tier-1 stuff like the god-tier equipment and some other stuff that I'm likely forgetting. That said, I haven't made any concessions to my cube for this, like I haven't explicitly put more creatures in that cube better than others.
Heart of Kiran has continued see decent adoption in cube decks that aren't featuring a ton of planeswalkers, I had one on Tuesday which was mostly a GW midrange deck, splashing blue. It worked out pretty well.
RE: Gonti, I've really liked it. It's arguable that it doesn't do much when it enters the battlefield since it doesn't directly impact the board, but I've found that it does impact the game pretty well (assuming you don't just die that turn, which doesn't really happen.) I've talked about it in my Kaladesh review, but I've yet to see it flat-out miss and it generally hits something good - and it's even better if it's hitting something that the deck doesn't have access to (like hitting a red damage spell to end the game in a non-Rakdos deck.)
How often does heart of kiran see main deck play vs sideboard?
How often does it go bottom 3 picks?
Quickly browsed through your cube on cube tutor, didn't see heart of kiran there and noticed there was a higher density of planeswalkers than I'd see in the average 465.
Not sure if that's relevant
If I had to guess, I'd say Heart of Kiran sees about 70ish% maindeck play. I'm likely guessing on the low side, because at least anecdotally, I don't tend to see it go late very often (and I don't recall it being in the last 3 picks of the draft.)
I haven't updated my CubeTutor list in a while (I generally take a while to do so, mostly because I change my actual list *very* often, at least changing a card between weekly drafts, but more often several cards and it usually adds up over time so that tracking changes takes a while.) The PW density, however, is likely similar to that ratio and it may impact how much maindeck time it has, but I don't think that makes it worse in cubes that don't have as many PWs.
I initially passed on this card because were spoiled for choices and I bristled at the crew 3 cost. Having given it a second look and a few reps it has slid into the maybe column. It can just be a beat down looter scooter type card or somewhat of a haste reach card in beatdown decks so no surprises there but it lands into some midrange/planeswalker decks and is very effective there. I find it no more restrictive on deck building than the car. My current cube likes having hasty finishers for aggro decks but might have a few too many.
Playtesting this a little more, and found a little promise. While the Crew 3 is kinda rough for aggro in this format, midrange decks with a decent number of 'walkers and 3+ power creatures are finding value in it. Might add it in if we continue to explore new shells that it plays decently in.
This card has been solid in my 540 testing. Yes it's only 1 more power but putting that on a creature with evasion has been huge in our experience. It will likely stay in the Cube until at least the summer. By that point we'll have an idea of where it should be long term.
The vehicle is really hard to deal with conventionally because you have to use instant speed removal or artifact removal/permanent removal to get rid of it. Often you have to two for one yourself, which allows the planeswalker to remain alive and continue stabilizing.
Also, 2 cmc is a really good casting cost for control decks because it is much easier to cast while holding counter mana up (force spike, remand).
Still, as has been said, a card that is only any good when you have a planeswalker out is too narrow. And crew 3 is just to much for a 4/4. The flying will occasionally be good, but vigilance isn't going to matter much (unless you have a walker, or a bunch of beast tokens maybe).
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Sometimes you even need a way to use the loyalty on a planeswalker. Cards like Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Nissa, Worldwaker who don't have non-ultimate minus abilities can benefit greatly by having a loyalty sink. Daretti, Scrap Savant's loyalty can often get out of hand, and it allows Garruk Relentless to automatically flip. Basically, this is a great card to have on the battlefield IF(!) you have a planeswalker out. Is that worth a slot in your cube or is it just too narrow? Personally, I can't wait to try it.
I tested it for a brief window.. Either wheeled in draft, or got smashed by artifact destruction every time I played it and decided to scrap it without adequate testing.
Tempted to revist it as I always enjoy playing cards that perform well at the pro tour (play group likes playing with cards that does well in constructed).
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- Not sure if I want to live in a world with a bunch of Nissa / Daretti type cards.
- I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth with HoK unless I'm able to use it for both offense and defense in the same turn cycle since I'm only getting a 1/+1 and flying for my troubles.
- Cube tends to have plenty of premium removal that can deal with both HoK / anything that can Crew it. I believe it's too easy to pseudo 2 for 1 by knocking out any 3-power creatures to keep HoK offline.
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Did you test it for a while?
A lot of theory crafting going on here, which I agree with the logic, I would love to here some proper anecdotal experience from someone who has a medium+ sample size on it.
There's a few successful standard cards that fall under peoples radar here due to misplaced analysis. (Torrential gearhulk stands out to me most in recent memory, I underestimated that card drastically in cube from analysis alone).
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I also think that Gearhulk's analysis for cube was also accurate, FWIW.
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Well written review, enjoyed it quite a bit.
Sweet BR midrange deck you used to highlight heart of kiran, think that's a great example of a good deck for it.
Offtopic but how have you found gonti, lord of luxury?
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I tend to run more vehicles than the average cube, as it seems that equipment tends to "lean non-aggressive" outside of the tier-1 stuff like the god-tier equipment and some other stuff that I'm likely forgetting. That said, I haven't made any concessions to my cube for this, like I haven't explicitly put more creatures in that cube better than others.
Heart of Kiran has continued see decent adoption in cube decks that aren't featuring a ton of planeswalkers, I had one on Tuesday which was mostly a GW midrange deck, splashing blue. It worked out pretty well.
RE: Gonti, I've really liked it. It's arguable that it doesn't do much when it enters the battlefield since it doesn't directly impact the board, but I've found that it does impact the game pretty well (assuming you don't just die that turn, which doesn't really happen.) I've talked about it in my Kaladesh review, but I've yet to see it flat-out miss and it generally hits something good - and it's even better if it's hitting something that the deck doesn't have access to (like hitting a red damage spell to end the game in a non-Rakdos deck.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
How often does heart of kiran see main deck play vs sideboard?
How often does it go bottom 3 picks?
Quickly browsed through your cube on cube tutor, didn't see heart of kiran there and noticed there was a higher density of planeswalkers than I'd see in the average 465.
Not sure if that's relevant
Some interesting card choices...
Last Updated 02/07/24
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I haven't updated my CubeTutor list in a while (I generally take a while to do so, mostly because I change my actual list *very* often, at least changing a card between weekly drafts, but more often several cards and it usually adds up over time so that tracking changes takes a while.) The PW density, however, is likely similar to that ratio and it may impact how much maindeck time it has, but I don't think that makes it worse in cubes that don't have as many PWs.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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