It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
I'm pretty sure I would be jumping out of my chair if I flipped a Wrath of God. We should also examine the opportunity cost of exiling cards from our opponent's deck.
Not completely sold on this card but it is significantly better than what is being discussed here.
It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
I'm pretty sure I would be jumping out of my chair if I flipped a Wrath of God. We should also examine the opportunity cost of exiling cards from our opponent's deck.
Not completely sold on this card but it is significantly better than what is being discussed here.
Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes bad. The point of the Wrath of God example is to show that there are plenty of cards that decks play that the mono-red deck will have either no interest in casting, or be completely unable to play (lands).
Let's put it this way...I see Stromkirk Occultist as a stronger cube card than this, and I don't think the Occultist is good enough at any cube size.
Sure, exiling random cards doesn't give any intrinsic value, but I think his point is that either the card is something the red deck wants to cast, or something they don't want to have cast against them. The lands part is a bummer but I actually think he is pretty good overall.
It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
I'm pretty sure I would be jumping out of my chair if I flipped a Wrath of God. We should also examine the opportunity cost of exiling cards from our opponent's deck.
Not completely sold on this card but it is significantly better than what is being discussed here.
Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes bad. The point of the Wrath of God example is to show that there are plenty of cards that decks play that the mono-red deck will have either no interest in casting, or be completely unable to play (lands).
Let's put it this way...I see Stromkirk Occultist as a stronger cube card than this, and I don't think the Occultist is good enough at any cube size.
The main different between the two is that Grenzo can connect the turn he hits the board. He's also a 2-drop than get on board and connect by himself before the Occultist. But anyhow, the first point is the line between good and bad.
It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
I'm pretty sure I would be jumping out of my chair if I flipped a Wrath of God. We should also examine the opportunity cost of exiling cards from our opponent's deck.
Not completely sold on this card but it is significantly better than what is being discussed here.
Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes bad. The point of the Wrath of God example is to show that there are plenty of cards that decks play that the mono-red deck will have either no interest in casting, or be completely unable to play (lands).
Let's put it this way...I see Stromkirk Occultist as a stronger cube card than this, and I don't think the Occultist is good enough at any cube size.
The main different between the two is that Grenzo can connect the turn he hits the board. He's also a 2-drop than get on board and connect by himself before the Occultist. But anyhow, the first point is the line between good and bad.
Grenzo can "hit" the turn the comes down only if you play him with extra mana open, and he'll only hit at a similiar rate as the Occultist if you're attacking with multiple creatures (because his exile trigger will hit much fewer playable cards than the Occultist).
'Mill or exile of random cards is meaningless because it could have been any card' is generally true and is a common response to the new player's misinterpretation that milling a card is good because 'it might be a valuable card!'; however, exiling random cards is of benefit in a singleton format if your opponent has a good number of tutors or toolbox effects, since you're reducing the pool of targets. In actual fact this is frequently the case in cube moreso than any other format, so shouldn't be discounted. As for Grenzo, it's unlikely that the volume he is exiling will have much effect in the majority of games, but it's potential CA for red and the goad ability is probably equally useful in practice - there aren't a vast number of good targets for it but there are a few exceptions.
Grenzo provides Goad too. Not only for him, but for all your creatures. That effect is arguably the more powerful of the two, and is being ignored entirely by most of the reviewers here. If all it did was play a pseudo-Flamespeaker/Occultist role, it wouldn't be very good. But it allows your cheap creatures to force your opponent into bad attacks that can leave them crippled or dead on the crackback. There are so many situations where a "bad" attack could be justified if you knew your opponent was going to swing in with their creatures on the following turn. Don't underestimate the Goad effect; it will be equally as useful, and will often be the reason why he's good.
It's a non-factor. You're just as likely to draw them into their Wrath as you are to exile it away. It's RANDOM. Outside of cases where the opponent plays an Imperial Seal or something first, the quality of the card you hit is irrelevant.
I admit my first pass at the card was probably underestimating goad. If people report good things from testing, we'll probably try to make room somehow.
Also, I think it's easy for sophisticated players to take things too far with the "milling doesn't matter" stuff. It's true that the event of "exiling N cards" has no effect on how likely they are to draw a wrath next turn (assuming you don't get their whole deck ). In other words P(draw wrath|N cards Grenzoed)=P(draw wrath| no cards Grenzoed). However, if you're talking specifically about cases where you don't hit anything you can cast, there is a statistical effect. Formally, P(draw wrath|N cards grenzoed, don't want to cast any)<P(draw wrath|no cards Grenzoed).
Edit: The point being, there is some small effect where you're likely to either nab cards you want to cast, *or,* if you don't, slightly reduce the chance that they draw something which is bad for you. On the other hand, if you condition on exiling some cards you want to cast, the probability that they draw a wrath next turn increases. You can't lower the risk of them drawing a wrath, just redistribute it to make your outcomes more flat.
Goad fundamentally changes the way your opponent plays. Taking choice away from your opponent is a very good tool, essentially giving out a "target creature can't block next turn" every time a dude connects. Getting to pick between that and another occasionally awesome option is a godsend. Only downsides are the vanilla body and intensive cost, although cost is somewhat mitigated by Grenzo not being an essential turn two play, and actually having a bigger impact later when you have more creatures
Grenzo can "hit" the turn the comes down only if you play him with extra mana open, and he'll only hit at a similiar rate as the Occultist if you're attacking with multiple creatures (because his exile trigger will hit much fewer playable cards than the Occultist).
That is still one turn earlier. And you're completely ignoring Grenzo's goat ability as well...
EDIT : Hasn't notice wtwlf's response about goat being the most important part of the card before replying. Absolutely true.
This mostly rings true but the hit does add variance which is something I feel like a lot of the Magic community seems to overlook. Expected Value isn't everything.
I loved ash zealot but RR just proved to be a really crappy cost. That's really my main problem with the card. Of all the CC cards red was the hardest to consistently hit, anecdotally.
It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
I'm pretty sure I would be jumping out of my chair if I flipped a Wrath of God. We should also examine the opportunity cost of exiling cards from our opponent's deck.
Not completely sold on this card but it is significantly better than what is being discussed here.
Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes bad. The point of the Wrath of God example is to show that there are plenty of cards that decks play that the mono-red deck will have either no interest in casting, or be completely unable to play (lands).
Let's put it this way...I see Stromkirk Occultist as a stronger cube card than this, and I don't think the Occultist is good enough at any cube size.
I'm semi parroting goodking here, but be careful with your wording
Your statement "Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value" is false.
The value it provides is proportional to the increased likelyhood of your opponent milling (could be ~0% if you are mono red vs a green midrange etc)
and the value it reduces of any of their tutor effects... which there are surprisingly a lot of in cube.
If you ever get to cast a single card from this I am pretty sure it becomes better than most 2-drops in the Cube. I also think goad is going to be very relevant with any number of the evasive cards that aggro decks have access to. This card does so much for the mana cost; I'm surprised that some people are generally more willing to play a 3/2 that can't block for 1R than this card.
If you ever get to cast a single card from this I am pretty sure it becomes better than most 2-drops in the Cube. I also think goad is going to be very relevant with any number of the evasive cards that aggro decks have access to. This card does so much for the mana cost; I'm surprised that some people are generally more willing to play a 3/2 that can't block for 1R than this card.
3/2 can't block is the bar for me. Not because I like them but a card has to be solid better than them. There are plenty of explosive upside creatures like Young Pyromancer ans Kiln Fiend. Ash Zealot and soulbound haste guy deliver damage faster. Don't get me wrong the abilities intrigue me, especially since red lacks anthems, but my biggest worry is translating all that text into actual game advantage without it being too situation. My 3/2 is always coming down on turn 2. Turn 3 I am always killing a blocker and doing serious damage.
And multiple creatures connecting won't be useful for casting 2+ spells; it'll be useful for simply finding a card you can cast.
I agree with this but, additionally, this also potentially gives you options. If you drop this on turn 2 and connect, you're not getting anything (or you're just going to goad their one drop if they had one) but if you connect on the next turn, you've probably got 3 mana to spend on a card in your hand or a newly exiled card. It's true that you may not be able to cast it and your game plan shouldn't revolve around casting random cards from your opponents deck but if they happen to mill something relevant that you're able to cast, that just gives you more options and more options is never a bad thing.
How has the newest Grenzo been playing for those who have been trying him? Has the double red been a barrier to him being cast on time or is he good enough midgame that it really hasn't hindered him?
Just want to reiterate above...Does anybody have results they would like to share? I am debating throwing him in my cube right now, but the RR seems steep.
I'm pretty sure I would be jumping out of my chair if I flipped a Wrath of God. We should also examine the opportunity cost of exiling cards from our opponent's deck.
Not completely sold on this card but it is significantly better than what is being discussed here.
Twitter
Youtube Channel
Cube Podcast
Draft my Cube!
Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes bad. The point of the Wrath of God example is to show that there are plenty of cards that decks play that the mono-red deck will have either no interest in casting, or be completely unable to play (lands).
Let's put it this way...I see Stromkirk Occultist as a stronger cube card than this, and I don't think the Occultist is good enough at any cube size.
The main different between the two is that Grenzo can connect the turn he hits the board. He's also a 2-drop than get on board and connect by himself before the Occultist. But anyhow, the first point is the line between good and bad.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Grenzo can "hit" the turn the comes down only if you play him with extra mana open, and he'll only hit at a similiar rate as the Occultist if you're attacking with multiple creatures (because his exile trigger will hit much fewer playable cards than the Occultist).
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Also, I think it's easy for sophisticated players to take things too far with the "milling doesn't matter" stuff. It's true that the event of "exiling N cards" has no effect on how likely they are to draw a wrath next turn (assuming you don't get their whole deck ). In other words P(draw wrath|N cards Grenzoed)=P(draw wrath| no cards Grenzoed). However, if you're talking specifically about cases where you don't hit anything you can cast, there is a statistical effect. Formally, P(draw wrath|N cards grenzoed, don't want to cast any)<P(draw wrath|no cards Grenzoed).
Edit: The point being, there is some small effect where you're likely to either nab cards you want to cast, *or,* if you don't, slightly reduce the chance that they draw something which is bad for you. On the other hand, if you condition on exiling some cards you want to cast, the probability that they draw a wrath next turn increases. You can't lower the risk of them drawing a wrath, just redistribute it to make your outcomes more flat.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
That is still one turn earlier. And you're completely ignoring Grenzo's goat ability as well...
EDIT : Hasn't notice wtwlf's response about goat being the most important part of the card before replying. Absolutely true.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I'm semi parroting goodking here, but be careful with your wording
Your statement "Exiling random cards from your opponents deck provides precisely no value" is false.
The value it provides is proportional to the increased likelyhood of your opponent milling (could be ~0% if you are mono red vs a green midrange etc)
and the value it reduces of any of their tutor effects... which there are surprisingly a lot of in cube.
This includes fetchlands, sakura tribe elder etc.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
3/2 can't block is the bar for me. Not because I like them but a card has to be solid better than them. There are plenty of explosive upside creatures like Young Pyromancer ans Kiln Fiend. Ash Zealot and soulbound haste guy deliver damage faster. Don't get me wrong the abilities intrigue me, especially since red lacks anthems, but my biggest worry is translating all that text into actual game advantage without it being too situation. My 3/2 is always coming down on turn 2. Turn 3 I am always killing a blocker and doing serious damage.
I agree with this but, additionally, this also potentially gives you options. If you drop this on turn 2 and connect, you're not getting anything (or you're just going to goad their one drop if they had one) but if you connect on the next turn, you've probably got 3 mana to spend on a card in your hand or a newly exiled card. It's true that you may not be able to cast it and your game plan shouldn't revolve around casting random cards from your opponents deck but if they happen to mill something relevant that you're able to cast, that just gives you more options and more options is never a bad thing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Social Media: Twitter, Twitch
MTG Articles: 200+ Articles on StarCityGames.com, MTG Draft AI Article
MTG AI Code: Limited Draft Bot, CubeCobra Recommender System