It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
Because I'll really be complaining if this exiles a Wrath on top while I'm getting through on combat.
I like it more than some of the other cards I'm running. I do wish it had room for rules text on Goad though.
It said you may cast, so I don't see why you'll be complaining. Especially if you would have to suffer from the wrath next turn. I don't get your point.
About Grenzo, the card seems busted. Another CA engine for red, that's awesome! Getting to cast you opponent's bears or removals in the late game is value if you're on topdeck mode. This compenses a lot for one of the few red deck win weakness. Really like it!
i really wish it only had the exile ability and then they could just get rid of the "choose one" and "goad" text. not really sure about this one.
Why would you want to change it to something strictly worse? I don't get the notion of excluding mechanics in order to 'simplify' the game. Magic is enormously complex and has a billion key words:
Granted, not all of these appear in most cubes but excluding a good card because it has Goad is weird to me. Especially in 2016 where everyone at the table has the internet in their pocket.
Agreed....complexity and depth of mechanics is one the things that makes magic great.
It's a weird curve topper though because you're not getting full use out of him till the following turn (when you have mana available). Also, how often are you really going to want to cast your opponents cards as the mono-red deck? 'Sweet, just flipped a Wrath of God!' The fact that you can't play lands is the camel-back-breaking-straw, for me. I'll be passing.
Because I'll really be complaining if this exiles a Wrath on top while I'm getting through on combat.
I like it more than some of the other cards I'm running. I do wish it had room for rules text on Goad though.
It said you may cast, so I don't see why you'll be complaining. Especially if you would have to suffer from the wrath next turn. I don't get your point.
About Grenzo, the card seems busted. Another CA engine for red, that's awesome! Getting to cast you opponent's bears or removals in the late game is value if you're on topdeck mode. This compenses a lot for one of the few red deck win weakness. Really like it!
100% sure that line was sarcasm. And the fact that it gets exiled means if he doesn't cast it, his opponent won't be able to cast it either next turn.
Because I'll really be complaining if this exiles a Wrath on top while I'm getting through on combat.
I like it more than some of the other cards I'm running. I do wish it had room for rules text on Goad though.
It said you may cast, so I don't see why you'll be complaining. Especially if you would have to suffer from the wrath next turn. I don't get your point.
About Grenzo, the card seems busted. Another CA engine for red, that's awesome! Getting to cast you opponent's bears or removals in the late game is value if you're on topdeck mode. This compenses a lot for one of the few red deck win weakness. Really like it!
If you cast him T4, you'd possibly have 2 mana to work with, and if you're playing that Rx aggro deck, you're not just flipping the top card. You're flipping the top 2-4 cards. In an environment where every card is good, even if you hit WCS of having nothing you can/want to cast, it just means your opponent can't have those cards either.
I'm not talking about Wrath specifically. I'm talking about cards that just don't do mono-red much good. As a mono-red player, I'm playing by the philosophy of fire, ie "how much damage does each card represent, and how can I leverage my mana most efficiently to output the most damage." As the mono-red player, I would play Lava Spike over Outpost Siege any day for this reason.
Now grenzo's not Outpost Siege for 2 reasons...one, it's on a stick (albeit a crappy one), which is a big advantage in terms of the philosphy of fire. But two, you're not flipping your own cards, and you're not burning through your own lands to improve the quality of your own draws. All you're getting is access to a random card from your opponents deck list. That card is only relevant at all if it's a non-land, it's cast-able, and it's a better use of mana than what you had going. And again, for mono-red, I think the subset of cards that meets that standard of relevance is likely alot smaller than you think. Add that on to the fact that it's a hard to cast bear with only minor other upside (the goad text will often just be flavor text), and I don't think it's worth including over even the most mediocre red two-drop in Ash Zealot.
I don't think anybody's advocating Grenzo as a potential slot in, say, Legacy burn. Not every deck subscribes to the philosophy of fire.
Grenzo looks like hot funsies for a few formats. Conspiracy draft and EDH immediately come to mind. For cubes, he offers plenty of potential interactions, depending on how it's built.
I'm not very impressed initially. The situations that people have been envisioning where he's good seem to have a sort of win-more quality, and I don't think this is what my monoR decks are really looking for on turn 2 or turn 5. That said, it is a pretty novel effect, so I'll be listening for more opinions. Shame it isn't play, then I think it would be an auto-include for us.
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Grenzo's definitively powerful but I don't know which of my red decks want him. A vanilla 2/2 body for double red is a bad deal and he doesn't affect the board until you connect with a creature. If I connect with 2-3 creatures with my red decks i should just win very soon. I don't want to be messing around with this random mill mechanic. I'll be passing on Grenzo for now but I'll be watching the playtesting threads on this guy.
Now grenzo's not Outpost Siege for 2 reasons...one, it's on a stick (albeit a crappy one), which is a big advantage in terms of the philosphy of fire. But two, you're not flipping your own cards, and you're not burning through your own lands to improve the quality of your own draws. All you're getting is access to a random card from your opponents deck list. That card is only relevant at all if it's a non-land, it's cast-able, and it's a better use of mana than what you had going. And again, for mono-red, I think the subset of cards that meets that standard of relevance is likely alot smaller than you think. Add that on to the fact that it's a hard to cast bear with only minor other upside (the goad text will often just be flavor text), and I don't think it's worth including over even the most mediocre red two-drop in Ash Zealot.
I think against decks that don't have enough creatures for the exile clause to be worthwhile, the goad text will be relevant enough that he won't be just a bear. A ground stall is the last thing I want to see if I'm heavy in red, and goad has the potential to get damage moving around again.
I'm intrigued. Seems like situationally very powerful. I do wish his stats line were a little more impressive, but I can understand how broken a stronger goader would be in 2-player.
I've probably got space for another 2 drop into red. Might be time to take out one of the 3 Incinerate variants I'm currently running.
Being that I don't have too many evasive creatures in red, and you have to actually hit instead of attack to get the card. I am not nearly as excited with my experience with Abbot or the morph guy as some of the forum. But the upside with those is that they are cards you are more likely to want and you have a little more control over the timing. What makes me nervous is the similarity to the ability on prophetic flamespeaker. I find it unlikely that the card draw will be a lot more effective than than that card.
But I do think the goad is pretty good. There are plenty of times I would be willing to send in a couple creatures for a little damage and have one of the blocked and killed in order to get the blocker out of the way the next round. The fact that you can keep goading the same creature if you keep hitting is pretty tasty.
The problem I have most right now with my red decks is mediocre damage output from my 2-3 drops. Rabblemaster and Garrison are going a long way at 3 to shore up the utility creatures but 2 could use more oomph. Everytime I try these bears they are often too situational (or double red). The boring 3/2 dudes are the bar that needs to be passed. Haste on Ash Zealot was what made it (And not dying to 2//1 dudes). But I benched ASH for being RR, this card has loads of text but I wish it was a 1/2 menace or a 3/2 trample.
I don't think anybody's advocating Grenzo as a potential slot in, say, Legacy burn. Not every deck subscribes to the philosophy of fire.
Grenzo looks like hot funsies for a few formats. Conspiracy draft and EDH immediately come to mind. For cubes, he offers plenty of potential interactions, depending on how it's built.
I would agree, if he didn't cost RR. At that mana cost, I'm really only considering him as a card for the monoish-red player at the table, and I don't think he does enough for those decks.
I think against decks that don't have enough creatures for the exile clause to be worthwhile, the goad text will be relevant enough that he won't be just a bear. A ground stall is the last thing I want to see if I'm heavy in red, and goad has the potential to get damage moving around again.
I would too, but am loathe to include an RR card in a deck with low-drops from other colors. The mana cost is easier for this guy if you think of him as a 4-drop, but he pails in comparison to other red cards in that slot.
I get that he has pretty rough stats and the casting cost is meh, but still this is probably as close as we are going to get to Edric in red, which is HUGE. Maybe I'm overvaluing the peusdo-draw, but I feel like this guy absolutely has to be tested.
I get that he has pretty rough stats and the casting cost is meh, but still this is probably as close as we are going to get to Edric in red, which is HUGE. Maybe I'm overvaluing the peusdo-draw, but I feel like this guy absolutely has to be tested.
I think comparing him to Edric is a mistake. If Edric draws you a card for each creature that hits your opponent, Grenzo draws you probably less than a third of a card.
Edit: Calling Grenzo the red Edric is like calling Commune with Lava the red Stroke of Genius, except worse, because you're drawing from your opponent's deck.
I don't love that goad doesn't have reminder text and works different in 2p than multiplayer. I think this card is good and interesting, but I'm worried about complexity issues. I tend to cube with people with a wide range of Magic experience, and so I try to limit the weird mechanics unless a card is just too fun to not include. He might make the cut.
That said, having the option of either forcing their creature to attack or pseudo-draw is great, and that ignores his lord effect of giving that ability to all your creatures!
What do you mean it works differently in multiplayer vs 2p? It works the same, has to attack, and has to attack someone else if able.
I don't think this mechanic is very complicated, but I also think rejecting mechanics on a complexity basis will hurt your cube in the long run. The first time someone plays with the mechanic, they get it (it makes great sense flavor wise). The lack of reminder text hurts 1 time...during the draft, someone says "wtf is goad?", and you can say "the creature has to attack next turn."
It doesn't really work differently, but in multiplayer, the implication is that the creature has to attack someone else. I try to only include cards that feature reminder text unless the abilities are evergreen. However, I agree with you though that goad is relatively straightforward compared to say, morph, so I will likely run this guy. I think he has an interesting and powerful effect.
i really wish it only had the exile ability and then they could just get rid of the "choose one" and "goad" text. not really sure about this one.
Why would you want to change it to something strictly worse? I don't get the notion of excluding mechanics in order to 'simplify' the game. Magic is enormously complex and has a billion key words:
[list went here]
Granted, not all of these appear in most cubes but excluding a good card because it has Goad is weird to me. Especially in 2016 where everyone at the table has the internet in their pocket.
I think there's some good responses to this, but I don't want to derail this thread with a general discussion on complexity.
Grenzo is sweet and if you are cubing with experienced MtG players or a consistent group, I think he totally deserves a shot.
I get that he has pretty rough stats and the casting cost is meh, but still this is probably as close as we are going to get to Edric in red, which is HUGE. Maybe I'm overvaluing the peusdo-draw, but I feel like this guy absolutely has to be tested.
I think comparing him to Edric is a mistake. If Edric draws you a card for each creature that hits your opponent, Grenzo draws you probably less than a third of a card.
Edit: Calling Grenzo the red Edric is like calling Commune with Lava the red Stroke of Genius, except worse, because you're drawing from your opponent's deck.
Yea, you got me there. I was definitely thinking along the lines of magical Christmas land.
Ceiling on this card is very, very high. It's a must-remove two drop. Fairly certain this will be a staple.
I don't think it's a must remove two drop at all. It adds no damage to the battlefield and can be easily blocked. No haste and no evasion makes him a poor play in the early game. You need to be going super wide for Grenzo to pay any dividends and even then the payoff may be non-existent. I would just rather play a better threat.
I will test this out to see how it goes. It's a powerful and unique set of effects, but I fear that the combination of the RR cost and the lack of combat abilities on a vanilla 2/2 will make it too hard to fully take advantage of.
Ceiling on this card is very, very high. It's a must-remove two drop. Fairly certain this will be a staple.
I don't think it's a must remove two drop at all. It adds no damage to the battlefield and can be easily blocked. No haste and no evasion makes him a poor play in the early game. You need to be going super wide for Grenzo to pay any dividends and even then the payoff may be non-existent. I would just rather play a better threat.
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To be fair, what you're saying here applies to most Red 1 drops ans 2 drops. Most of them don't have haste or evasion
You can argue that other creatures are better as purely pushing through damage though
Ceiling on this card is very, very high. It's a must-remove two drop. Fairly certain this will be a staple.
I don't think it's a must remove two drop at all. It adds no damage to the battlefield and can be easily blocked. No haste and no evasion makes him a poor play in the early game. You need to be going super wide for Grenzo to pay any dividends and even then the payoff may be non-existent. I would just rather play a better threat.
Edit for English
To be fair, what you're saying here applies to most Red 1 drops ans 2 drops. Most of them don't have haste or evasion
You can argue that other creatures are better as purely pushing through damage
I'm also not impressed. I think casting two cards in a single turn with this will be rare and a serious win more. With the trigger happening only when you connect not being able to grab lands is unfortunate. Between hitting ramp, counterspells, mass removals, combo pieces and cards out of your mana range, I think the average hit will not be a beneficial card for you, let alone be castable with the mana you have untapped. The body does little on its own too.
The bigger upside might actually be the Goad. Once your opponent's body is forced to attack, you can make bad combat decisions for them multiple turns in a row. Will certainly help push damage through.
And multiple creatures connecting won't be useful for casting 2+ spells; it'll be useful for simply finding a card you can cast.
I don't love it on T2, but it's okay. What I like about it, is that it's a 2-drop I don't mind topdecking.
Not super optimistic, but will test simply because it's unique and has a lot of potential for a 2-drop.
It said you may cast, so I don't see why you'll be complaining. Especially if you would have to suffer from the wrath next turn. I don't get your point.
About Grenzo, the card seems busted. Another CA engine for red, that's awesome! Getting to cast you opponent's bears or removals in the late game is value if you're on topdeck mode. This compenses a lot for one of the few red deck win weakness. Really like it!
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Agreed....complexity and depth of mechanics is one the things that makes magic great.
I'm not talking about Wrath specifically. I'm talking about cards that just don't do mono-red much good. As a mono-red player, I'm playing by the philosophy of fire, ie "how much damage does each card represent, and how can I leverage my mana most efficiently to output the most damage." As the mono-red player, I would play Lava Spike over Outpost Siege any day for this reason.
Now grenzo's not Outpost Siege for 2 reasons...one, it's on a stick (albeit a crappy one), which is a big advantage in terms of the philosphy of fire. But two, you're not flipping your own cards, and you're not burning through your own lands to improve the quality of your own draws. All you're getting is access to a random card from your opponents deck list. That card is only relevant at all if it's a non-land, it's cast-able, and it's a better use of mana than what you had going. And again, for mono-red, I think the subset of cards that meets that standard of relevance is likely alot smaller than you think. Add that on to the fact that it's a hard to cast bear with only minor other upside (the goad text will often just be flavor text), and I don't think it's worth including over even the most mediocre red two-drop in Ash Zealot.
Grenzo looks like hot funsies for a few formats. Conspiracy draft and EDH immediately come to mind. For cubes, he offers plenty of potential interactions, depending on how it's built.
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I think against decks that don't have enough creatures for the exile clause to be worthwhile, the goad text will be relevant enough that he won't be just a bear. A ground stall is the last thing I want to see if I'm heavy in red, and goad has the potential to get damage moving around again.
Really want to see this next to Thalia, Heretic Cathar or Imposing Sovereign
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I've probably got space for another 2 drop into red. Might be time to take out one of the 3 Incinerate variants I'm currently running.
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But I do think the goad is pretty good. There are plenty of times I would be willing to send in a couple creatures for a little damage and have one of the blocked and killed in order to get the blocker out of the way the next round. The fact that you can keep goading the same creature if you keep hitting is pretty tasty.
The problem I have most right now with my red decks is mediocre damage output from my 2-3 drops. Rabblemaster and Garrison are going a long way at 3 to shore up the utility creatures but 2 could use more oomph. Everytime I try these bears they are often too situational (or double red). The boring 3/2 dudes are the bar that needs to be passed. Haste on Ash Zealot was what made it (And not dying to 2//1 dudes). But I benched ASH for being RR, this card has loads of text but I wish it was a 1/2 menace or a 3/2 trample.
I would agree, if he didn't cost RR. At that mana cost, I'm really only considering him as a card for the monoish-red player at the table, and I don't think he does enough for those decks.
I would too, but am loathe to include an RR card in a deck with low-drops from other colors. The mana cost is easier for this guy if you think of him as a 4-drop, but he pails in comparison to other red cards in that slot.
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I think comparing him to Edric is a mistake. If Edric draws you a card for each creature that hits your opponent, Grenzo draws you probably less than a third of a card.
Edit: Calling Grenzo the red Edric is like calling Commune with Lava the red Stroke of Genius, except worse, because you're drawing from your opponent's deck.
It doesn't really work differently, but in multiplayer, the implication is that the creature has to attack someone else. I try to only include cards that feature reminder text unless the abilities are evergreen. However, I agree with you though that goad is relatively straightforward compared to say, morph, so I will likely run this guy. I think he has an interesting and powerful effect.
I think there's some good responses to this, but I don't want to derail this thread with a general discussion on complexity.
Grenzo is sweet and if you are cubing with experienced MtG players or a consistent group, I think he totally deserves a shot.
Yea, you got me there. I was definitely thinking along the lines of magical Christmas land.
I don't think it's a must remove two drop at all. It adds no damage to the battlefield and can be easily blocked. No haste and no evasion makes him a poor play in the early game. You need to be going super wide for Grenzo to pay any dividends and even then the payoff may be non-existent. I would just rather play a better threat.
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To be fair, what you're saying here applies to most Red 1 drops ans 2 drops. Most of them don't have haste or evasion
You can argue that other creatures are better as purely pushing through damage though
Ya, but those creatures don't cost RR.
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And multiple creatures connecting won't be useful for casting 2+ spells; it'll be useful for simply finding a card you can cast.
I don't love it on T2, but it's okay. What I like about it, is that it's a 2-drop I don't mind topdecking.
Not super optimistic, but will test simply because it's unique and has a lot of potential for a 2-drop.
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