I like that he enables your 5+ drops to also attack immediately, so I definitely think he's worth testing. For now, I'm going to try replacing Vengevine, but I still think Vengevine is the better card.
I guess I differ from the Hivehind a bit. I think this card is 'meh' and doesn't compare to the 4 listed in the quote. He's got upside against every Baloth and Blastoderm but IHMO the ability doesn't hit the same power level as the above 4.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Polukranos has really under-perfomed for me. Its almost always a vanilla 5/5 that dies in response to monsterous or cannot kill what it needs to. I think I will try this in its place. I actually like Vengevine more.
If your drafters can't cast a 4 drop without an ETB trigger and not have it be a trap, you might need to tone down your removal
I'm not interested. What deck wants this card, really?
There is a huge difference between always having haste and most of the time having haste. Even worse, the condition is something the opponent can actively influence, so the opponent gets the chance to make good decisions. I think decks that are interested in a hasty beater are better off with Vengevine because it always has haste and because of the recursion (which has been very relevant for us).
Decks interested in a card that gives haste to other creatures are probably better off with Lightning Greaves or Sarkhan Vol. They are not as easily removed as a creature. The plan of 1) stick a Surrak 2) stick a Titan 3) attack with Titan 4) profit seems a bit ambitious to me.
The best application I can currently think of is with Tooth and Nail.
I'm not interested. What deck wants this card, really?
There is a huge difference between always having haste and most of the time having haste. Even worse, the condition is something the opponent can actively influence, so the opponent gets the chance to make good decisions. I think decks that are interested in a hasty beater are better off with Vengevine because it always has haste and because of the recursion (which has been very relevant for us).
Decks interested in a card that gives haste to other creatures are probably better off with Lightning Greaves or Sarkhan Vol. They are not as easily removed as a creature. The plan of 1) stick a Surrak 2) stick a Titan 3) attack with Titan 4) profit seems a bit ambitious to me.
The best application I can currently think of is with Tooth and Nail.
Yeah tooth and nail doesn`t really go with this guy but almost every 5 drop creature does. This guy into kalonian hydra, wolfir silverheart or even thragtusk is really good. I'm going to test this guy in Briarhorn's spot who I was looking to replace after this set came out.
The way I figure it is, if Surrak gets haste coming down, bonus. If not, he's still acting like a fires/hammer but you haven`t lost the tempo of the missed turn so to speak. He`s fine but definitely behind green`s best 4 drops and probably slightly worse than Vengevine. I just feel that green monsters benefit from haste more than other creature based decks and that this card is unique in that it`s one of the few non-equipment cards that does it outside of red.
Everyone keeps saying he give your guys haste, but he's not like fires or hammer. He gives one creature haste. And that is a big deal if you're following up with things like Deranged Hermit, Cloudgoat Ranger, Meloku, Siege Gang Commander, etc... And your opponent can Electrolyze him into a vanilla if you're not careful.
And I'd also like to point out that Vengevine has better synergies with things like removal, discard, chaff, and card draw.
On that note, it seems a little bit like comparing Psychatog to a 5/6 for 1UB.
Polukranos has really under-perfomed for me. Its almost always a vanilla 5/5 that dies in response to monsterous or cannot kill what it needs to. I think I will try this in its place. I actually like Vengevine more.
If your drafters can't cast a 4 drop without an ETB trigger and not have it be a trap, you might need to tone down your removal
Toning down a cube to play a mediocre card seems not quite right.
tbf I don't think this is the worst TnT target of all time...I mean, this + Emrakul is a hasty 15/15 flier with annhiliator...obviously not a big factor but worth considering if that deck shows up enough. But Zealous Conscripts does the same and you might not meed more than 2 of that effect if that's the only reason you run him.
Polukranos has really under-perfomed for me. Its almost always a vanilla 5/5 that dies in response to monsterous or cannot kill what it needs to. I think I will try this in its place. I actually like Vengevine more.
If your drafters can't cast a 4 drop without an ETB trigger and not have it be a trap, you might need to tone down your removal
This feels slightly disingenuous. Torggo isn't talking about a 4 drop that dies to removal. He specifically mentions that it dies in response to monstrous. The tempo swing from losing your mana investment for the turn can be game-changing. I know this is usually a corner case, but it was just something to clear up
Polukranos has really under-perfomed for me. Its almost always a vanilla 5/5 that dies in response to monsterous or cannot kill what it needs to. I think I will try this in its place. I actually like Vengevine more.
If your drafters can't cast a 4 drop without an ETB trigger and not have it be a trap, you might need to tone down your removal
Toning down a cube to play a mediocre card seems not quite right.
No need to tone down the cube at all. I think that what Dandy_Lions was trying to say is that in general, a cube overfuel with removals (specially 2cc black ones) isn't really a sign that indicate the power level of it. There's so much else black can do that is power and fun at the same time.
Be cubing too much 1-for-1 removal is just something that could brings first, redundancy, and second, lameness for players in general. I don't run Doom Blade or Terror anymore, mainly for space purpose I must admit, but also because those are so empty soul card and doesn't bring something special at all. They aren't exceptionnal card in either control, aggro and midrange but can fill a hole or act like a excellent sideboard card. Don't get me wrong, some need to be in there, but not all of them. I'm only saying to a certain ratio must be elaborate.
I don't want my cube to be filled with Doom Blade 1.0, Doom Blade 2.0, Doom Blad 3.0, etc. There's so much else to do in Magic than just blown out creatures 1-for-1 and overdoing that may kill other various strategy.
Polukranos has really under-perfomed for me. Its almost always a vanilla 5/5 that dies in response to monsterous or cannot kill what it needs to. I think I will try this in its place. I actually like Vengevine more.
If your drafters can't cast a 4 drop without an ETB trigger and not have it be a trap, you might need to tone down your removal
Toning down a cube to play a mediocre card seems not quite right.
No need to tone down the cube at all. I think that what Dandy_Lions was trying to say is that in general, a cube overfuel with removals (specially 2cc black ones) isn't really a sign that indicate the power level of it. There's so much else black can do that is power and fun at the same time.
Be cubing too much 1-for-1 removal is just something that could brings first, redundancy, and second, lameness for players in general. I don't run Doom Blade or Terror anymore, mainly for space purpose I must admit, but also because those are so empty soul card and doesn't bring something special at all. They aren't exceptionnal card in either control, aggro and midrange but can fill a hole or act like a excellent sideboard card. Don't get me wrong, some need to be in there, but not all of them. I'm only saying to a certain ratio must be elaborate.
I don't want my cube to be filled with Doom Blade 1.0, Doom Blade 2.0, Doom Blad 3.0, etc. There's so much else to do in Magic than just blown out creatures 1-for-1 and overdoing that may kill other various strategy.
I have never seen a cube with too much removal in it. Space is an issue and playing those removal means you are not playing other sweet cards.
I hate to ruin the nice summary, but I actually think this is stronger than Vengevine
Some people say he is slightly worse than Vengevine, others (including myself) say he is slightly stronger than Vengevine. What we mostly agreed on is that they are close. That's why I said "roughly the same power level", leaving it deliberately open which card is actually better. So, I think my summary still holds.
How about Green Aggro? He's a 5/4 haste in green. Who will also give haste to the creature of your choice on the following turn.
That would be quite good, but because in many games your opponent will interact with your board, it is easily possible that Surrak does not have haste and not grant haste. I have corrected your sentence for that scenario:
He's a 5/4 haste in green. Who will also give haste to the creature of your choice on the following turn.
How about midrange or control? He may or may not have haste himself, but you may have ramped him out on turn 3 (or earlier in powered/fast mana) since you're in green. Your finishers now have haste.
If you want your finishers to have haste, I would suggest Lightning Greaves. Much harder to disrupt than Surrak. Lightning Greaves does not do anything without a creature, that at least is not true for Surrak because a worst case scenario of 5/4 for 2GG is not that bad. I can see it doing work in an aggressive ramp deck that powers out 3-6 mana threats. Bigger ramp decks, control decks, graveyard interaction decks and so on have no room for Surrak imho.
@Tooth and Nail: Eldrazi were exactly what I had in mind with my comment, but I agree of course that Zealous Conscripts do a much better job for that.
@Too Much Removal(TM): I'm sure my Cube at some point had too much removal (at an other too little, as with many other effects). That is just a matter of balancing the Cube. In the draft too much removal is visible in that players don't have to pick removal early because they can count on wheeling it. In play I think of having too much removal if an archetype I'd like to support does not work because of it.
I think Surrak will have and especially grant haste much more often than you give it credit for, Konfusius. And it's not like a 5/4 for 2GG is terrible.
I think he will prove to pack quite a punch in green aggro. I wouldn't run it in a cube that doesn't see aggressive green decks on a regular basis though.
I think Surrak will have and especially grant haste much more often than you give it credit for, Konfusius. And it's not like a 5/4 for 2GG is terrible.
I think he will prove to pack quite a punch in green aggro. I wouldn't run it in a cube that doesn't see aggressive green decks on a regular basis though.
Aggressive green decks is not really our thing, so that may well be the reason that I am skeptical.
The window where you can realistically stick Surrak and follow it with a threat and have both survive to the combat step is quite narrow, I think. But it is exactly the phase of the game where aggressive decks want to seal the deal, so I can see that it appeals to other Cube designers for that reason. The applications of the card seem rather limited to me, which is actually not a bad thing, it's archetype support. So I guess I am biased against this card because the archetype where it could shine is not one I'm interested in.
I'm late to the party in this thread, but Surrak really doesn't excite me too much. I think I prefer Vengevine's guaranteed hastiness and recursion, and I cut that card already. Green aggro presence tends to just be a splash so the GG is not much fun either.
Well, it's not good. There are several 5/5s for 2GG with other abilities that aren't in the cube right now.
I'm not sure how true that is, actually. Most of those "abilities" are downsides (Link)
Deadbridge Goliath I'd accept, but I still think Surrak here's upside is more likely to be used than old deady's, and there's Blastoderm, who I've been a bit meh on lately
Sure there's Polukranos, but I don't think anyone here was arguing for that swap
I don't run either the Goliath or Polukranos anymore, and they both have bigger bodies to combine with their abilities. My only point was that 5-power for 2GG isn't a selling point anymore like it was before ...when the only way to get those sized bodies with that cost was with a drawback of some kind. Now you can get even bigger bodies than Surrak's, with bonus positive abilities, for the same cost. And some of those cards aren't even cubed all that much anymore.
bearbare hands is pretty cool.Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Yes. This is a perfect summary.
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Testing will tell.
I guess I differ from the Hivehind a bit. I think this card is 'meh' and doesn't compare to the 4 listed in the quote. He's got upside against every Baloth and Blastoderm but IHMO the ability doesn't hit the same power level as the above 4.
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If your drafters can't cast a 4 drop without an ETB trigger and not have it be a trap, you might need to tone down your removal
There is a huge difference between always having haste and most of the time having haste. Even worse, the condition is something the opponent can actively influence, so the opponent gets the chance to make good decisions. I think decks that are interested in a hasty beater are better off with Vengevine because it always has haste and because of the recursion (which has been very relevant for us).
Decks interested in a card that gives haste to other creatures are probably better off with Lightning Greaves or Sarkhan Vol. They are not as easily removed as a creature. The plan of 1) stick a Surrak 2) stick a Titan 3) attack with Titan 4) profit seems a bit ambitious to me.
The best application I can currently think of is with Tooth and Nail.
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Yeah tooth and nail doesn`t really go with this guy but almost every 5 drop creature does. This guy into kalonian hydra, wolfir silverheart or even thragtusk is really good. I'm going to test this guy in Briarhorn's spot who I was looking to replace after this set came out.
The way I figure it is, if Surrak gets haste coming down, bonus. If not, he's still acting like a fires/hammer but you haven`t lost the tempo of the missed turn so to speak. He`s fine but definitely behind green`s best 4 drops and probably slightly worse than Vengevine. I just feel that green monsters benefit from haste more than other creature based decks and that this card is unique in that it`s one of the few non-equipment cards that does it outside of red.
And I'd also like to point out that Vengevine has better synergies with things like removal, discard, chaff, and card draw.
On that note, it seems a little bit like comparing Psychatog to a 5/6 for 1UB.
Toning down a cube to play a mediocre card seems not quite right.
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This feels slightly disingenuous. Torggo isn't talking about a 4 drop that dies to removal. He specifically mentions that it dies in response to monstrous. The tempo swing from losing your mana investment for the turn can be game-changing. I know this is usually a corner case, but it was just something to clear up
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No need to tone down the cube at all. I think that what Dandy_Lions was trying to say is that in general, a cube overfuel with removals (specially 2cc black ones) isn't really a sign that indicate the power level of it. There's so much else black can do that is power and fun at the same time.
Be cubing too much 1-for-1 removal is just something that could brings first, redundancy, and second, lameness for players in general. I don't run Doom Blade or Terror anymore, mainly for space purpose I must admit, but also because those are so empty soul card and doesn't bring something special at all. They aren't exceptionnal card in either control, aggro and midrange but can fill a hole or act like a excellent sideboard card. Don't get me wrong, some need to be in there, but not all of them. I'm only saying to a certain ratio must be elaborate.
I don't want my cube to be filled with Doom Blade 1.0, Doom Blade 2.0, Doom Blad 3.0, etc. There's so much else to do in Magic than just blown out creatures 1-for-1 and overdoing that may kill other various strategy.
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I have never seen a cube with too much removal in it. Space is an issue and playing those removal means you are not playing other sweet cards.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I believe the latter case is too likely.
If you want your finishers to have haste, I would suggest Lightning Greaves. Much harder to disrupt than Surrak. Lightning Greaves does not do anything without a creature, that at least is not true for Surrak because a worst case scenario of 5/4 for 2GG is not that bad. I can see it doing work in an aggressive ramp deck that powers out 3-6 mana threats. Bigger ramp decks, control decks, graveyard interaction decks and so on have no room for Surrak imho.
@Tooth and Nail: Eldrazi were exactly what I had in mind with my comment, but I agree of course that Zealous Conscripts do a much better job for that.
@Too Much Removal(TM): I'm sure my Cube at some point had too much removal (at an other too little, as with many other effects). That is just a matter of balancing the Cube. In the draft too much removal is visible in that players don't have to pick removal early because they can count on wheeling it. In play I think of having too much removal if an archetype I'd like to support does not work because of it.
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I think he will prove to pack quite a punch in green aggro. I wouldn't run it in a cube that doesn't see aggressive green decks on a regular basis though.
Well, it's not good. There are several 5/5s for 2GG with other abilities that aren't in the cube right now.
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The window where you can realistically stick Surrak and follow it with a threat and have both survive to the combat step is quite narrow, I think. But it is exactly the phase of the game where aggressive decks want to seal the deal, so I can see that it appeals to other Cube designers for that reason. The applications of the card seem rather limited to me, which is actually not a bad thing, it's archetype support. So I guess I am biased against this card because the archetype where it could shine is not one I'm interested in.
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I'm not sure how true that is, actually. Most of those "abilities" are downsides (Link)
Deadbridge Goliath I'd accept, but I still think Surrak here's upside is more likely to be used than old deady's, and there's Blastoderm, who I've been a bit meh on lately
Sure there's Polukranos, but I don't think anyone here was arguing for that swap
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And
And I was simply pointing out that we have cards with better stats and relevant upsides for the same cost that are currently excluded from cubes.
That's all.
You can calm down a bit.
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