I think trample would have made this card playable. His ability basically reads "if you control creatures with 3 additional power" which is pretty easy to trigger in green, so he can effectively give all your fat green beef haste. I just don't think he competes with green's best 4 drops, but I may be undervaluing him. What do you guys think?
I think I beat you by a minute but yeah, I kinda agree. Though 5 power on a 4 drop is huge, this guy is probably better if you support green aggro? I don't know, this has been the hardest one for me to evaluate.
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Oops, sorry about that, Salmo. As I think more about this card I wonder if I was initially too harsh. I bet Surrak swings for 5 hasty power 75% of the time you cast him, and midrange/ramp decks that run 5-7 drops go into beast mode with him on the field. I don't support green agro, but I do support "fast midrange" with cards like Experiment One and Wolfbitten Captive, and I feel like Surrak would be really strong in that deck.
Compared to Vengevine, he's +1/+1, almost always hasty, and has an ability that is much easier activate. I only cut Vengevine a few months ago and I would argue that Surrak is better.
I dont think hes bad, it will not be hard for him to have haste himself. Haste is probably my favorite ability and this is aggressively costed. What to cut for him? Polukranos, World Eater? Its a competitive slit.
Oops, sorry about that, Salmo. As I think more about this card I wonder if I was initially too harsh. I bet Surrak swings for 5 hasty power 75% of the time you cast him, and midrange/ramp decks that run 5-7 drops go into beast mode with him on the field. I don't support green agro, but I do support "fast midrange" with cards like Experiment One and Wolfbitten Captive, and I feel like Surrak would be really strong in that deck.
Compared to Vengevine, he's +1/+1, almost always hasty, and has an ability that is much easier activate. I only cut Vengevine a few months ago and I would argue that Surrak is better.
I was probably too harsh in the OP.
First, no problem, I'm just joking/being an ass.
Second, I agree. Typically 1 or 2 of green's other creatures will trigger this. The from-the-GY ability of vengevine is relevant, but for me at least it was rare he came out of there and I think I'd prefer the extra P/T on that type of creature. Plus giving all your following creatures haste on a pretty consistent basis seems really strong;.
I like that he enables your 5+ drops to also attack immediately, so I definitely think he's worth testing. For now, I'm going to try replacing Vengevine, but I still think Vengevine is the better card.
I don't think I love him as a mere haste-enabler; I want to have some reasonable confidence that with a good curve I'll be hitting my opponent for 5 the turn I play him. Pretty borderline for me.
I dont think hes bad, it will not be hard for him to have haste himself. Haste is probably my favorite ability and this is aggressively costed. What to cut for him? Palukranos, World Eater? Its a competitive slit.
I don't think I love him as a mere haste-enabler; I want to have some reasonable confidence that with a good curve I'll be hitting my opponent for 5 the turn I play him. Pretty borderline for me.
Its not hard to curve into him having haste, plus he will give virtually all of your creatures thereafter haste is very strong.
He's fine, but not exciting and probably not good enough to see play. Green often gets a 5/5 for 2GG with a tacked-on ability at rare; Polukranos sees play for a relevant ability, but did Deadbridge Goliath make much impact in Return to Ravnica? There's no real justification for losing 1 toughness, and he's not interesting enough to really overcome the drawback of being legendary.
This treats him as basically a vanilla creature, but I'm not sure he's really any better if he's enabled. He targets one creature, so doesn't play well with Hornet Queen - still the most common green finisher. He is a way to accelerate Atarka, though.
EDIT: And, as others have pointed out, himself. I missed that somehow, and it may be enough to make him playable. As for comparisons with Vengevine, these are along the same lines as comparisons I made between that card and Risen Executioner: he matches fairly well with an average-to-bad case scenario with Vengevine. That does make him playable to some degree, but average to bad scenarios aren't why Vengevine gets played. Vengevine gets played in decks that can sometimes accelerate it out of the graveyard for free before you ever get to 4 mana, and this isn't going to match that. Even if you accelerate this out on turn 3, you don't have the power to give it haste.
In Standard I would agree, but giving a Titan haste could be back breaking. I probably overvalue haste, even conditional like this is. I love cards that mess with combat math like flash and haste.
He does something fairly unique in green, and curving from him into Wolfir Silverheart seems like a pretty big game. I still feel like he needed something like trample to really make him worth an inclusion in most cubes.
G/R Aggro/Midrange may run him. Compared to other four slot creatures that G/R runs (e.g. Shaman of the Great Hunt, Polukranos), it will be a competitive slot. Also doesn't slot well Temur Ascendancy Combo, despite the 4+ power and GG, as that deck relies on the Ascendancy for haste already making him a vanilla 5/4. Not sure he'll see much play...
EDIT: And, as others have pointed out, himself. I missed that somehow, and it may be enough to make him playable. As for comparisons with Vengevine, these are along the same lines as comparisons I made between that card and Risen Executioner: he matches fairly well with an average-to-bad case scenario with Vengevine. That does make him playable to some degree, but average to bad scenarios aren't why Vengevine gets played. Vengevine gets played in decks that can sometimes accelerate it out of the graveyard for free before you ever get to 4 mans, and this isn't going to match that. Even if you accelerate this out on turn 3, you don't have the power to give it haste.
Like Torggo said, those arguments carry a lot of water in Standard, but in a singleton/limited environment (CUBE) Vengevine was inconsistent at best. Also, Turn 1 Mana Elf, Turn 2 Rofellos (or any other 2 power 2 drop), Turn 3 Surrak can totally happen so it is definitely possible have formidable online by turn 3.
EDIT: And, as others have pointed out, himself. I missed that somehow, and it may be enough to make him playable. As for comparisons with Vengevine, these are along the same lines as comparisons I made between that card and Risen Executioner: he matches fairly well with an average-to-bad case scenario with Vengevine. That does make him playable to some degree, but average to bad scenarios aren't why Vengevine gets played. Vengevine gets played in decks that can sometimes accelerate it out of the graveyard for free before you ever get to 4 mans, and this isn't going to match that. Even if you accelerate this out on turn 3, you don't have the power to give it haste.
Like Torggo said, those arguments carry a lot of water in Standard, but in a singleton/limited environment (CUBE) Vengevine was inconsistent at best. Also, Turn 1 Mana Elf, Turn 2 Rofellos (or any other 2 power 2 drop), Turn 3 Surrak can totally happen so it is definitely possible have formidable online by turn 3.
Ive rarely been able to bring Vengevine back from the GY, but his haste is very relevant vs Planewalkers. Im at least going to test this guy, but my cube is 720 so bigger than most. Probably hard to find room at 450.
Vengevine's recursion ability was rarely triggered and I've been thinking about cutting it recently. Surrak, the Hunt Caller has +1/+1, should have haste himself most of the time and gives haste to any one creature you play after him. That's enough upside for me to cut Vengevine and include him instead.
EDIT: And, as others have pointed out, himself. I missed that somehow, and it may be enough to make him playable. As for comparisons with Vengevine, these are along the same lines as comparisons I made between that card and Risen Executioner: he matches fairly well with an average-to-bad case scenario with Vengevine. That does make him playable to some degree, but average to bad scenarios aren't why Vengevine gets played. Vengevine gets played in decks that can sometimes accelerate it out of the graveyard for free before you ever get to 4 mans, and this isn't going to match that. Even if you accelerate this out on turn 3, you don't have the power to give it haste.
Like Torggo said, those arguments carry a lot of water in Standard, but in a singleton/limited environment (CUBE) Vengevine was inconsistent at best. Also, Turn 1 Mana Elf, Turn 2 Rofellos (or any other 2 power 2 drop), Turn 3 Surrak can totally happen so it is definitely possible have formidable online by turn 3.
Sorry, picked this up from the home page - didn't realise it was on the cube forum.
He's going to be great in Limited, and I agree with others that the design is nice for a monogreen card. Pretty sure green has nominally been one of the colours that gets haste (tied with black for secondary) in the colour pie reorganisation, but it's still a rare ability to find in green.
I'll pass. 5/4 vanilla for four isn't what I'm looking for.
He is not vanilla, he has haste most of the time.
Looks like a solid card, somewhere between 450 and 550 depending on what you support. Giving all your following creatures haste seems pretty strong. Would like to test at 450, but as always question is can we find a cut at 4cc?
I was initially pretty down on Surrak--he's not too flashy and "Formidable" automatically makes me start to disregard the text after it, but he's actually a 5/4 haste in green that gives your future plays haste too, and that's actually really solid.
I think trample would have made this card playable. His ability basically reads "if you control creatures with 3 additional power" which is pretty easy to trigger in green, so he can effectively give all your fat green beef haste. I just don't think he competes with green's best 4 drops, but I may be undervaluing him. What do you guys think?
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Compared to Vengevine, he's +1/+1, almost always hasty, and has an ability that is much easier activate. I only cut Vengevine a few months ago and I would argue that Surrak is better.
I was probably too harsh in the OP.
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First, no problem, I'm just joking/being an ass.
Second, I agree. Typically 1 or 2 of green's other creatures will trigger this. The from-the-GY ability of vengevine is relevant, but for me at least it was rare he came out of there and I think I'd prefer the extra P/T on that type of creature. Plus giving all your following creatures haste on a pretty consistent basis seems really strong;.
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I actually really like this guy, but the competition for him is tough. I'm currently running:
I like that he enables your 5+ drops to also attack immediately, so I definitely think he's worth testing. For now, I'm going to try replacing Vengevine, but I still think Vengevine is the better card.
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Looking at your list, Vengevine, Briarhorn, and Obstinate Baloth all seem like options. I might bump Titania, Protector of Argoth to give him a shot.
Its not hard to curve into him having haste, plus he will give virtually all of your creatures thereafter haste is very strong.
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This treats him as basically a vanilla creature, but I'm not sure he's really any better if he's enabled. He targets one creature, so doesn't play well with Hornet Queen - still the most common green finisher. He is a way to accelerate Atarka, though.
EDIT: And, as others have pointed out, himself. I missed that somehow, and it may be enough to make him playable. As for comparisons with Vengevine, these are along the same lines as comparisons I made between that card and Risen Executioner: he matches fairly well with an average-to-bad case scenario with Vengevine. That does make him playable to some degree, but average to bad scenarios aren't why Vengevine gets played. Vengevine gets played in decks that can sometimes accelerate it out of the graveyard for free before you ever get to 4 mana, and this isn't going to match that. Even if you accelerate this out on turn 3, you don't have the power to give it haste.
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Like Torggo said, those arguments carry a lot of water in Standard, but in a singleton/limited environment (CUBE) Vengevine was inconsistent at best. Also, Turn 1 Mana Elf, Turn 2 Rofellos (or any other 2 power 2 drop), Turn 3 Surrak can totally happen so it is definitely possible have formidable online by turn 3.
Ive rarely been able to bring Vengevine back from the GY, but his haste is very relevant vs Planewalkers. Im at least going to test this guy, but my cube is 720 so bigger than most. Probably hard to find room at 450.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Vengevine's recursion ability was rarely triggered and I've been thinking about cutting it recently. Surrak, the Hunt Caller has +1/+1, should have haste himself most of the time and gives haste to any one creature you play after him. That's enough upside for me to cut Vengevine and include him instead.
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Sorry, picked this up from the home page - didn't realise it was on the cube forum.
He's going to be great in Limited, and I agree with others that the design is nice for a monogreen card. Pretty sure green has nominally been one of the colours that gets haste (tied with black for secondary) in the colour pie reorganisation, but it's still a rare ability to find in green.
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This thing can give a green aggro deck a legitimate turn 4 kill, which is not something to sneeze at.
Also, he gives haste to every other creature you drop! I will test this for sure.
He is not vanilla, he has haste most of the time.
Looks like a solid card, somewhere between 450 and 550 depending on what you support. Giving all your following creatures haste seems pretty strong. Would like to test at 450, but as always question is can we find a cut at 4cc?
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