I would never run this dragonlord because it's worse than Prognostic Sphinx. The sphinx has:
Basically permanent hexproof because of threat of activation
Doesn't need to hit face in order to trigger
Easier to cast
Bigger butt to block on turn 5
Filters for your bombs in the same way
When you play the dragonlord, you're taking a big gamble that he won't eat a removal spell when he attacks, or just get chumped by spirit tokens.
As bad as the Sphinx might look, it has a permanent home in my cube, we've found it to be extremely solid and consistent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The GameCube, a 500 cube with a medium power level and a focus on fun and fringe playables rather than immediately shutting your opponent down with the best cards ever printed.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
I would never run this dragonlord because it's worse than Prognostic Sphinx.
Let's examine that.
Dragonlord has 2 more power but one less toughness. So Dragonlord is better on offense and worse on defense from a P/T ratio. With that said, it costs you a card to give Prognostic Sphinx hexproof, so Dragonlord is harder to remove if you are using it purely as a blocker (not sure why you would though). Dragonlord can end the game in 4 turns. Prog would need 7, though he is clearly not a finisher.
Scry 3 vs Dragonlord's ability. IMO, Dragonlord's is better. You are getting a card and you get the main benefit of scry as well (getting rid of cards you don't want). There are certainly going to be times when the top 3 cards are amazing and you do not want two of them on the bottom, but assuming your deck is not all filler (which it shouldn't be in cube), most of the time you will be getting rid of a land you don't want to draw and choosing the best of two spells. Dragonlord has to connect in combat, Prog just has to swing. Still though, drawing a card versus just scrying is better because it's CA.
Dragonlord can serve as both a finisher and a way to get cards you want/need in your hand to secure the game. While Prognostic Sphinx has graveyard synergy and it probably the better defensive card. My 2 cents is Dragonlord is slightly better overall, but I can see people arguing the other way here. On a related note, I may try Prognostic Sphinx based on your solid recommendation for it. I remember seeing it when it was spoiled and wondering if it would be good or not. I sort of forgot about him and recently I've been looking for an interesting blue 5 drop not named Meloku.
I like the sphinx for being mono-colored but when it really needed to block a removal spell could still tap it. And the trigger is much better on the dragonlord.
For the sphinx, I do agree that if they have lethal AND a good removal spell on the turn you drop it, YES you will die. However in experience that has very rarely happened, and the opponent will either have one or the other and you can start gaining solid advantage.
Yes the dragonlord draws a card and that's certainly better, but it's just a lot more conditional and swingy.
Worst case scenario when you swing with dragonlord:
They had instant speed removal for him. He's gone.
They had flying chumpers. You can't connect. They can use sorcery removal on him.
Meanwhile, worst case scenario for sphinx:
They use a removal spell and you either have 0 cards in hand or don't want to discard (Not common because he digs for good cards anyway)
Otherwise, they use an INSTANT speed removal to keep him from attacking and you discard a land/etc.
I think the floor is higher for the sphinx because the situations when you end up in a bad place are a lot more rare, but the dragonlord does have a higher ceiling.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The GameCube, a 500 cube with a medium power level and a focus on fun and fringe playables rather than immediately shutting your opponent down with the best cards ever printed.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
I added this last night and it was in my first pack. It was pretty bad. Bad enough im not giving it a second chance. I might try Narset in its place, or add a different Azorius card.
It's definitely a good monster, I just don't think it's needed in the cube. White and blue have a ton of great cards in the 5cc slot, and in order to get Ojutai into the list, you have to exclude a card that's much more important for a specific deck. Like in your case, losing Venser hurts the blink/bounce archetype a lot ...to add in a card that has a lot of redundant options to choose from. And even if you don't support that archetype, other cuts don't look great either. Ultimately, you have to lose something much more unique, important or universally playable in order to upgrade one 5cc beater in your WU decks...
I think it's a very good card, and it would be an autoinclude if it was just one colour. The way that its protection plays with counterspells means that it's not hard to get a hit in with Ojutai in the right deck, and once you start the train it becomes very hard for the opponent to win.
I think that saying that you don't want to play it because white and blue have strong 5 drop options is a little strange. Yes, it's true that both white and blue have strong options at 5, but all of those cards except Mulldrifter are less powerful than Ojutai is.
And yeah, it's MUCH better than venser. I personally really dislike when people defend cards because of their uniqueness when the argument is about card power level. Of course, anyone who's running a cube can cut powerful cards for less powerful cards to make their cube how they want it to be. But we're talking about how good Ojutai is, not how fun it is.
And yeah, it's MUCH better than venser. I personally really dislike when people defend cards because of their uniqueness when the argument is about card power level. Of course, anyone who's running a cube can cut powerful cards for less powerful cards to make their cube how they want it to be. But we're talking about how good Ojutai is, not how fun it is.
Not just uniqueness, but importance. Power should never be the only consideration. You need to factor in the need for certain cards, and the roles they play. Ojutai is powerful, but it's redundant with a bunch of great options in those colors. Venser is a keystone card for supporting an archetype, that actively gets worse by removing it.
The argument isn't about power. The argument is about whether or not it's right for the cube. Those are two different questions.
And nobody's talking about "fun". Supporting archetypes is important for having the cube function. Increasing the powerlevel of one card at the cost of damaging an archetype does not necessarily raise the powerlevel of the cube. So even with deck strength in mind, the most powerful card in a vacuum might not be the most powerful card for the cube.
Quote from Rubin »
I think that saying that you don't want to play it because white and blue have strong 5 drop options is a little strange.
Why? You don't consider what color combinations actually need when you include cards in that guild? You just throw everything in willy-nilly without consideration of archetype support or what the guild actively needs to improve it?
..........
Venser is not a powerful card. But it's a strong card in the right deck. IF you are trying to support a blink/bounce archetype, I would suggest not cutting it for another 5cc threat, because Venser's effect isn't replacable, and Ojutai's is already redundant. Regardless of the individual powerlevels comparative to one another, one is more important to the success of an actively played cube archetype than the other.
If I were running walkers, I would run Venser over Ojutai for the reason stated above - it helps define/enable an arch type. I'm a big fan of using guild slots for that sort of card.
But since I don't run walkers that's not really an option for me. I also have some gaps at the 5 drop spot. There's basically Meloku in U (as far as creatures go). What overlaps with it in that color besides Prognostic Sphinx (which I'm not presently running though maybe I should)?
I'm also not enamored with any other options for WU. Detention Sphere is redundant with easier to cast options in white. Supreme Verdict is a harder to cast Day of Judgment with a near useless "can't be countered" clause. Sphinx's Revelation is cool I guess but I don't feel compelled to run WU if I see it in draft.
I like Azorius Charm. That's really the only card in the guild. Geist of Saint Traft is definitely powerful, but sometimes it swings and dies. Other times it gets combo'd with something and ends up this unstoppable force of feel-bad. So I don't know on that one honestly (for my group at least - I get why this is very high on most lists here).
So yeah, I like this card. The library manipulation I think is super powerful in this color combination. It's lovely with miracles too or more esoteric stuff like Conundrum Sphinx if you guys play that (it's extremely busted in the right deck FWIW).
Yes, it's true that both white and blue have strong options at 5, but all of those cards except Mulldrifter are less powerful than Ojutai is.
This seems untrue to me. Reveillark, Cloudgoat Ranger, Meloku the Clouded Mirror are all better than the Ojutai while being mono-color. Even Baneslayer Angel seems at least equivalent. Venser is also better as a archetype allstar pillar. Same thing for Richard Garfield Ph.D. in my cube, but I'm pretty marginal on that.
Sphere and Verdict add to Control shell something really important when you decide to enlarge your cube. That's not the «unique factor» of it that keeps them in, but the necessity of it to keep those decks alive.
Detention Sphere could seems like a easy cut when you are looking for it, but there aren't really better options out there that worth it that much. Ojutai Lord seems like one but doesn't add what most UW decks need, except maybe in some Tempo Shell that can curve higher. Also, let's not forget about Sphere hitting tokens, which I considered a pretty brutal add-on. Plus it's not like O-Ring and Banishing Light weren't consider among the best white card in the cube though.
The blink archetype took a noticeable hit since I cut Venser several months ago. It used to be a really strong archetype that we really enjoyed drafting but it lost some punch and was just not winning games like it used to. I've put Venser back in (along with Crystal Shard) in my latest update to boost the archetype as it really is an important piece of the blink puzzle. I know how my cube is with it, and I know how it is without it.
I think Crystal Shard is 360 cubeable regardless of dedicated blink support - it just does so much. Bouncing my own stuff is not even its primary function, but it's a good one.
If I wasn't supporting the blink/bounce deck, I would be considering Ojutai for that last slot. But since I don't need him, and blink/bounce does need Venser, the best thing for the health & power of the cube is to keep Venser in. I don't want to damage the validity of my archetypes for the sake of adding in an extra 5-drop that we already have plenty of good options for.
As bad as the Sphinx might look, it has a permanent home in my cube, we've found it to be extremely solid and consistent.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
Let's examine that.
Dragonlord has 2 more power but one less toughness. So Dragonlord is better on offense and worse on defense from a P/T ratio. With that said, it costs you a card to give Prognostic Sphinx hexproof, so Dragonlord is harder to remove if you are using it purely as a blocker (not sure why you would though). Dragonlord can end the game in 4 turns. Prog would need 7, though he is clearly not a finisher.
Scry 3 vs Dragonlord's ability. IMO, Dragonlord's is better. You are getting a card and you get the main benefit of scry as well (getting rid of cards you don't want). There are certainly going to be times when the top 3 cards are amazing and you do not want two of them on the bottom, but assuming your deck is not all filler (which it shouldn't be in cube), most of the time you will be getting rid of a land you don't want to draw and choosing the best of two spells. Dragonlord has to connect in combat, Prog just has to swing. Still though, drawing a card versus just scrying is better because it's CA.
Dragonlord can serve as both a finisher and a way to get cards you want/need in your hand to secure the game. While Prognostic Sphinx has graveyard synergy and it probably the better defensive card. My 2 cents is Dragonlord is slightly better overall, but I can see people arguing the other way here. On a related note, I may try Prognostic Sphinx based on your solid recommendation for it. I remember seeing it when it was spoiled and wondering if it would be good or not. I sort of forgot about him and recently I've been looking for an interesting blue 5 drop not named Meloku.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Yes the dragonlord draws a card and that's certainly better, but it's just a lot more conditional and swingy.
Worst case scenario when you swing with dragonlord:
Meanwhile, worst case scenario for sphinx:
I think the floor is higher for the sphinx because the situations when you end up in a bad place are a lot more rare, but the dragonlord does have a higher ceiling.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I think that saying that you don't want to play it because white and blue have strong 5 drop options is a little strange. Yes, it's true that both white and blue have strong options at 5, but all of those cards except Mulldrifter are less powerful than Ojutai is.
And yeah, it's MUCH better than venser. I personally really dislike when people defend cards because of their uniqueness when the argument is about card power level. Of course, anyone who's running a cube can cut powerful cards for less powerful cards to make their cube how they want it to be. But we're talking about how good Ojutai is, not how fun it is.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Not just uniqueness, but importance. Power should never be the only consideration. You need to factor in the need for certain cards, and the roles they play. Ojutai is powerful, but it's redundant with a bunch of great options in those colors. Venser is a keystone card for supporting an archetype, that actively gets worse by removing it.
The argument isn't about power. The argument is about whether or not it's right for the cube. Those are two different questions.
And nobody's talking about "fun". Supporting archetypes is important for having the cube function. Increasing the powerlevel of one card at the cost of damaging an archetype does not necessarily raise the powerlevel of the cube. So even with deck strength in mind, the most powerful card in a vacuum might not be the most powerful card for the cube.
Why? You don't consider what color combinations actually need when you include cards in that guild? You just throw everything in willy-nilly without consideration of archetype support or what the guild actively needs to improve it?
..........
Venser is not a powerful card. But it's a strong card in the right deck. IF you are trying to support a blink/bounce archetype, I would suggest not cutting it for another 5cc threat, because Venser's effect isn't replacable, and Ojutai's is already redundant. Regardless of the individual powerlevels comparative to one another, one is more important to the success of an actively played cube archetype than the other.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
But since I don't run walkers that's not really an option for me. I also have some gaps at the 5 drop spot. There's basically Meloku in U (as far as creatures go). What overlaps with it in that color besides Prognostic Sphinx (which I'm not presently running though maybe I should)?
I'm also not enamored with any other options for WU. Detention Sphere is redundant with easier to cast options in white. Supreme Verdict is a harder to cast Day of Judgment with a near useless "can't be countered" clause. Sphinx's Revelation is cool I guess but I don't feel compelled to run WU if I see it in draft.
I like Azorius Charm. That's really the only card in the guild. Geist of Saint Traft is definitely powerful, but sometimes it swings and dies. Other times it gets combo'd with something and ends up this unstoppable force of feel-bad. So I don't know on that one honestly (for my group at least - I get why this is very high on most lists here).
So yeah, I like this card. The library manipulation I think is super powerful in this color combination. It's lovely with miracles too or more esoteric stuff like Conundrum Sphinx if you guys play that (it's extremely busted in the right deck FWIW).
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
This seems untrue to me. Reveillark, Cloudgoat Ranger, Meloku the Clouded Mirror are all better than the Ojutai while being mono-color. Even Baneslayer Angel seems at least equivalent. Venser is also better as a archetype allstar pillar. Same thing for Richard Garfield Ph.D. in my cube, but I'm pretty marginal on that.
Sphere and Verdict add to Control shell something really important when you decide to enlarge your cube. That's not the «unique factor» of it that keeps them in, but the necessity of it to keep those decks alive.
Detention Sphere could seems like a easy cut when you are looking for it, but there aren't really better options out there that worth it that much. Ojutai Lord seems like one but doesn't add what most UW decks need, except maybe in some Tempo Shell that can curve higher. Also, let's not forget about Sphere hitting tokens, which I considered a pretty brutal add-on. Plus it's not like O-Ring and Banishing Light weren't consider among the best white card in the cube though.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
(Spoiler: A good card but Azorious is stacked and Ojutai just doesn't make the cut.)