This is a pretty cool Morph. It costs more overall mana and it's a turn slower than Eternal Witness, but it never costs more than one green mana, it has a bigger body, and it has evasion. I think this card is interesting, and becomes a snap-include if you have a Morph theme at all.
This card really makes me want to give a Morph subtheme another shot in the cube.
Awesome. At 3 power it will be able to evade a lot of potential blockers.
Wonder what the evasion is going to be on the white and red ones. First strike and can't be blocked except by two or more creatures maybe? And can the red one please bolt when its flipped up?
Interesting, my one strike against it is that Eternal Witness is much easier to abuse via recursion. I might consider it but I won't lose any sleep at night if I can't find room for it.
My only issue with this card when compared to Eternal Witness is that part of what makes E Wit so good is how easy it is to abuse the effect. Between bounce, blink, and reanimation it's easy to get a lot more mileage out of her. This guy (gal?) seems like a one shot effect. Not that the effect is bad, but I think losing the ability to abuse it and activate it multiple times takes it down a peg or two.
With that said, though, this still looks like a really solid creature, especially if you're supporting green aggro at all.
Interesting comparison to Nantuko Vigilante. It gains some minor evasion, a more useful non-morphed body, and an ability that more frequently hits in exchange for outright dealing with problematic cards. Not my favorite of the new ones, but at 540 it might have a place if morph gets enough of a boost.
I have a minor morph theme (it was a major one when I was still building it up, but the morph cards keep getting axed when I update). I'm still happy to include this.
I think I will be testing this one as well, there are enough interesting Morphs to warrant throwing a bunch of them in. Another 2/1 for 2 with some sort of evasion and a nice ability when flipped.
I don't worry about the interaction with bounce/blink too much. Certainly I can't remember the last time I actually bounced my own card to replay if fully, using anything other than Crystal Shard. And most creatures in the cube work fine with blink so it's not a concern that this one doesn't, in fact it's kind of refreshing not having an ETB effect on a decent card.
I like all of this cycle, but this might be the best one yet.
A really nice card. If I ran morphs, I'd definitely make room for it, so... what is the threshold for Morph creatures? 2 in each color? 3 in each color?
I don't want to start running morphs until there is a real mystery behind them... :/
Ten or so in your 450 card cube should be OK. As long as there are a couple of biggies in there, like Sagu Mauler and Exalted Angel, to provoke removal on them...
All this talk about a "morph theme" or a "threshold for morph creatures" confuses me. There is no threshold for morph creatures and almost no cube will ever run a true morph theme. The former implies that you can't just run one or two creatures that just happen to have the morph ability in your cube. Do you have to cut Exalted Angel because you run no other morph creatures? Of course not! The term theme also implies that you have to run a bunch of cards for synergistic effects. That isn't really true either. A dedicated morph theme would mean running cards like Trail of Mystery, which I am sure almost nobody wants to do. Morph cards on their own aren't any more of a theme than cards with cycling or kicker are.
Simply evaluate each card with morph on an individual level. Is the card good enough? If yes, just run it. Even if it is the only or one of just half a dozen cards with morphs in your cube. It is true that running multiple morphs introduces an element of bluffing and uncertainty to the game that isn't present when you only run very few morphs. This increases the value of additional morphs - but still on an individual level. A card that might not have made it in if it were the only morph card in your cube might now deserve a second look, since it went up in value. This evaluation certainly shouldn't affect the morph cards that you already included in your cube because you decided that they are good enough even without that element of surprise.
Just run a morph creature if you want to run that card, regardless of how many other morph creatures you run. "This card is cool and I want to run it, but I shouldn't, because I run no other morph creatures" is a silly argument. The element of surprise and mystery will just automatically come once you run enough morphs. It's not necessary to follow an all or nothing approach there. It's not a threshold or a theme. It's just a bonus.
Simply evaluate each card with morph on an individual level. Is the card good enough?
Except that a lot of morph creatures gain value when your opponent doesn't know exactly what the card is before you flip it. So when you evaluate it on an individual level, the answer is often "no, not on its own, but if there were enough morph creatures to disguise its identity, the answer would be yes". So you can't just evaluate every morph individually, because a lot of them gain and lose value depending on whether you added it in as part of a package. So a small subtheme would be 1 in each color so the average 2-color deck can at least cast a shadow of doubt over it's identity. A moderate subtheme would have 2 in each color so the opponent can't even narrow down exactly which morphs they might be based on color. And a strong/deep subtheme would probably contain 3+ per color to make it almost impossible for your opponent to correctly play around various morph effects. So the number of morphs in the cube and the number of morphs in each color does play an important role in properly evaluating their value.
Now I'm confused why you're confused, Star_Slayer.
The term theme also implies that you have to run a bunch of cards for synergistic effects. That isn't really true either. A dedicated morph theme would mean running cards like Trail of Mystery, which I am sure almost nobody wants to do. Morph cards on their own aren't any more of a theme than cards with cycling or kicker are.
Morph cards are objectively, factually better when you have more Morph cards in the cube (not even necessarily in the deck). It raises the bar of uncertainty as to what the facedown card is, which results in less information for your opponent. As for the cycling/kicker analogy - the presence of a cycling/kicker card doesn't improve the others. It sounds like you're just railing against the term 'theme'. If semantics is the problem here, what do you prefer people call it? A 'package'?
Simply evaluate each card with morph on an individual level. Is the card good enough? If yes, just run it. Even if it is the only or one of just half a dozen cards with morphs in your cube.
Again, who is NOT doing this? I think many cubers run Exalted Angel or Grim Haruspex regardless of other Morphs. Saying it is all-or-nothing is a false dichotomy, yes, but no-one is suggesting that this should be the case. The talk of including groups of morphs stems from the ones which are good but not quite there. If you include more, they become better which makes further Morph inclusions easier. On a subjective level, having a greater number is more fun, too.
Case in point: I don't currently think Exalted Angel is good enough to run in my cube. Some part of that is a result of my opponent knowing exactly what it is when I play face down and being able to manage accordingly. If I have other Morph creatures around, that is not necessarily the case any longer. In fact, there are a number of Morph cards that just miss the cut, but which may get added together, because adding one Morph card makes every other Morph card objectively better. When present together, they are good enough; by the same token, when there aren't many there, they are not good enough.
It is true that running multiple morphs introduces an element of bluffing and uncertainty to the game that isn't present when you only run very few morphs. This increases the value of additional morphs - but still on an individual level. A card that might not have made it in if it were the only morph card in your cube might now deserve a second look, since it went up in value. This evaluation certainly shouldn't affect the morph cards that you already included in your cube because you decided that they are good enough even without that element of surprise.
This is all totally correct, but I don't know where you're getting the idea that some players are talking about removing the "already good enough" morph cards.
]Just run a morph creature if you want to run that card, regardless of how many other morph creatures you run. "This card is cool and I want to run it, but I shouldn't, because I run no other morph creatures" is a silly argument. The element of surprise and mystery will just automatically come once you run enough morphs. It's not necessary to follow an all or nothing approach there. It's not a threshold or a theme. It's just a bonus.
"This card is cool and I want to run it, but I shouldn't, because I run no other morph creatures"... Again, I'm confused as to who is supposedly making this argument. I think you may be getting confused with players who have several Morphs on the cusp of playability and who are interested in reaching a mass whereby they are perceived to be good enough. In fact, most morphs AREN'T good enough without others. Some are.
To expand my initial question about the "Morph threshold":
There are certainly some Morph creatures that are good enough by themselves, no doubt. But as Goodking said, the power level of all Morph creatures goes up the more Morph creatures are in the cube. Having an unknown Morph creature on the opponent's side with unknown activation costs is much more painful than knowing "great, there's the Exalted Angel again". If there is no evaluation process behind any Morph creature that hits the table, the mechanic is usually just another mean to get a creature out faster or a bad impersonation of kicker for an ETB-effect.
For me, Morph needs to reach a certain threshold to introduce the evaluation game to a cube experience which in turn makes more than a small handful of Morph creatures viable. I'm just not sure where that threshold is for me personally.
It's true that there are Morph creatures that are good enough on their own (namely Exalted Angel, Bane of the Living and Nantuko Vigilante as prime examples), but for me, that's not enough. But that's just me. Everyone has to determine whether power is more important than design or vice versa themselves.
I was confused because I got the impression from some posters that they think that they can't include any morph creatures until they include a bunch at once. Which is just wrong.
If you want to run a Ball Lightning variant, then Blistering Firecat is probably your best option. Want to run a big flyer with lifegain that can also be run in decks with a lower curve? There’s Exalted Angel. Another Eternal Witness? The new Den Protector seems good enough for that job. Sagu Mauler would be a good option for Simic even if it didn’t have any morph at all.
Obviously, after the first few morphs, other morph creatures rise in value because there is now the added surprise/bluff/mystery factor involved. However, there is no obligation to include more morph creatures after your first two or three. You don’t need to reach a threshold or fulfill a theme or include the whole package. There is no need to confine yourself by thinking that you need to fill out a certain number of morph slots for each color. Just look at each individual morph creature one at a time and decide if it is good enough. Keep the synergy in mind but don’t let it restrict your inclusions.
I'm with Star-Slayer on this topic - I dont' think you need to have "enough" morph in your cube to add more. Even if you have only Exalted Angel - if it eats dust because they know it, you'll have another card that won't eat a removal spell. If the card is good enough on it's own, it should tested and considered.
This guy seems great to me. More recursion in green. The lack of ETB doesnt' make it as good as E-Wit, but e-wit is super high in power. Being just good is good enough to be played in a larger cube.
If the card is good enough on it's (sic) own, it should tested and considered.
That's not what's up for debate though; the focus is on cards which aren't good enough on their own, but which are nearly of the required calibre, and which are probably/possibly good enough when you factor in the Morph uncertainty. There are a fair few with exactly that status for my own cube, and it's particularly important for ones like Stratus Dancer with an effect when flipped. It's far from irrelevant to discuss what other morphs you have available in a given cube. Star Slayer is actually in agreement on this and he's not saying you should evaluate them in a vacuum, because that would be wrong. Some are good enough regardless of other morphs but not many.
Obviously if a morph is good enough on its own, just play it. But Morph is a mechanic that largely revolves around being able to disguise the card's identity. So for the vast majority of morph creatures that are fringe playable, it boils down to "this card would be good enough if I had a critical mass of Morphs to use with it". What we have to determine as cube managers is when the breakover point occurs to go ahead and include a suite of good-but-not-great morphs together so that they have an environment they can thrive in. And the more cards we get like this, the more appealing that becomes.
I'll definitely test this and will likely add it. I run a handful of morphs at the moment, including Rattleclaw Mystic as another one likely to appear in green decks.
Honestly, I think the while megamorph is pretty solid. A 2/1 lifelinker for 2 is not great but it's servicable, and having the ability to kill bombs later in the game is added utility. Certainly beats the crap out of Whipcorder. If this is the beast white memgorph in the set I would have no problems running it alongside Exalted Angel as my second white morph. This guy needs his own thread.
This is a pretty cool Morph. It costs more overall mana and it's a turn slower than Eternal Witness, but it never costs more than one green mana, it has a bigger body, and it has evasion. I think this card is interesting, and becomes a snap-include if you have a Morph theme at all.
This card really makes me want to give a Morph subtheme another shot in the cube.
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Wonder what the evasion is going to be on the white and red ones. First strike and can't be blocked except by two or more creatures maybe? And can the red one please bolt when its flipped up?
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With that said, though, this still looks like a really solid creature, especially if you're supporting green aggro at all.
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I don't worry about the interaction with bounce/blink too much. Certainly I can't remember the last time I actually bounced my own card to replay if fully, using anything other than Crystal Shard. And most creatures in the cube work fine with blink so it's not a concern that this one doesn't, in fact it's kind of refreshing not having an ETB effect on a decent card.
I like all of this cycle, but this might be the best one yet.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I don't want to start running morphs until there is a real mystery behind them... :/
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Simply evaluate each card with morph on an individual level. Is the card good enough? If yes, just run it. Even if it is the only or one of just half a dozen cards with morphs in your cube. It is true that running multiple morphs introduces an element of bluffing and uncertainty to the game that isn't present when you only run very few morphs. This increases the value of additional morphs - but still on an individual level. A card that might not have made it in if it were the only morph card in your cube might now deserve a second look, since it went up in value. This evaluation certainly shouldn't affect the morph cards that you already included in your cube because you decided that they are good enough even without that element of surprise.
Just run a morph creature if you want to run that card, regardless of how many other morph creatures you run. "This card is cool and I want to run it, but I shouldn't, because I run no other morph creatures" is a silly argument. The element of surprise and mystery will just automatically come once you run enough morphs. It's not necessary to follow an all or nothing approach there. It's not a threshold or a theme. It's just a bonus.
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Except that a lot of morph creatures gain value when your opponent doesn't know exactly what the card is before you flip it. So when you evaluate it on an individual level, the answer is often "no, not on its own, but if there were enough morph creatures to disguise its identity, the answer would be yes". So you can't just evaluate every morph individually, because a lot of them gain and lose value depending on whether you added it in as part of a package. So a small subtheme would be 1 in each color so the average 2-color deck can at least cast a shadow of doubt over it's identity. A moderate subtheme would have 2 in each color so the opponent can't even narrow down exactly which morphs they might be based on color. And a strong/deep subtheme would probably contain 3+ per color to make it almost impossible for your opponent to correctly play around various morph effects. So the number of morphs in the cube and the number of morphs in each color does play an important role in properly evaluating their value.
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Morph cards are objectively, factually better when you have more Morph cards in the cube (not even necessarily in the deck). It raises the bar of uncertainty as to what the facedown card is, which results in less information for your opponent. As for the cycling/kicker analogy - the presence of a cycling/kicker card doesn't improve the others. It sounds like you're just railing against the term 'theme'. If semantics is the problem here, what do you prefer people call it? A 'package'?
Again, who is NOT doing this? I think many cubers run Exalted Angel or Grim Haruspex regardless of other Morphs. Saying it is all-or-nothing is a false dichotomy, yes, but no-one is suggesting that this should be the case. The talk of including groups of morphs stems from the ones which are good but not quite there. If you include more, they become better which makes further Morph inclusions easier. On a subjective level, having a greater number is more fun, too.
Case in point: I don't currently think Exalted Angel is good enough to run in my cube. Some part of that is a result of my opponent knowing exactly what it is when I play face down and being able to manage accordingly. If I have other Morph creatures around, that is not necessarily the case any longer. In fact, there are a number of Morph cards that just miss the cut, but which may get added together, because adding one Morph card makes every other Morph card objectively better. When present together, they are good enough; by the same token, when there aren't many there, they are not good enough.
This is all totally correct, but I don't know where you're getting the idea that some players are talking about removing the "already good enough" morph cards.
"This card is cool and I want to run it, but I shouldn't, because I run no other morph creatures"... Again, I'm confused as to who is supposedly making this argument. I think you may be getting confused with players who have several Morphs on the cusp of playability and who are interested in reaching a mass whereby they are perceived to be good enough. In fact, most morphs AREN'T good enough without others. Some are.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
There are certainly some Morph creatures that are good enough by themselves, no doubt. But as Goodking said, the power level of all Morph creatures goes up the more Morph creatures are in the cube. Having an unknown Morph creature on the opponent's side with unknown activation costs is much more painful than knowing "great, there's the Exalted Angel again". If there is no evaluation process behind any Morph creature that hits the table, the mechanic is usually just another mean to get a creature out faster or a bad impersonation of kicker for an ETB-effect.
For me, Morph needs to reach a certain threshold to introduce the evaluation game to a cube experience which in turn makes more than a small handful of Morph creatures viable. I'm just not sure where that threshold is for me personally.
It's true that there are Morph creatures that are good enough on their own (namely Exalted Angel, Bane of the Living and Nantuko Vigilante as prime examples), but for me, that's not enough. But that's just me. Everyone has to determine whether power is more important than design or vice versa themselves.
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If you want to run a Ball Lightning variant, then Blistering Firecat is probably your best option. Want to run a big flyer with lifegain that can also be run in decks with a lower curve? There’s Exalted Angel. Another Eternal Witness? The new Den Protector seems good enough for that job. Sagu Mauler would be a good option for Simic even if it didn’t have any morph at all.
Obviously, after the first few morphs, other morph creatures rise in value because there is now the added surprise/bluff/mystery factor involved. However, there is no obligation to include more morph creatures after your first two or three. You don’t need to reach a threshold or fulfill a theme or include the whole package. There is no need to confine yourself by thinking that you need to fill out a certain number of morph slots for each color. Just look at each individual morph creature one at a time and decide if it is good enough. Keep the synergy in mind but don’t let it restrict your inclusions.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This guy seems great to me. More recursion in green. The lack of ETB doesnt' make it as good as E-Wit, but e-wit is super high in power. Being just good is good enough to be played in a larger cube.
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That's not what's up for debate though; the focus is on cards which aren't good enough on their own, but which are nearly of the required calibre, and which are probably/possibly good enough when you factor in the Morph uncertainty. There are a fair few with exactly that status for my own cube, and it's particularly important for ones like Stratus Dancer with an effect when flipped. It's far from irrelevant to discuss what other morphs you have available in a given cube. Star Slayer is actually in agreement on this and he's not saying you should evaluate them in a vacuum, because that would be wrong. Some are good enough regardless of other morphs but not many.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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