Red finally got a token generating 4-cmc walker and it's pretty... average? The 0 ain't bad and it compares to Gideon, Ally of Zendikar's 2/2s on defense, but it lacks Gideon's overall offense which is what makes him great. Seems like a good option for more fair cubes looking for more aristocrats / tokens support.
Just yesterday I was talking to a player in my Cube group about how much I wanted a 3 or 4 drop red walker that made tokens. Then this happens!
Objectively I know it's not the most powerful but having additional support for midrange red, Aristocrats, tokens & Goblin Bombardment/Makeshift Munitions is more than enough for me to try this card.
Just feels so....fair to me. I'm currently running Torch of Defiance, Koth, and Flamecaller as my red PW's, I like all of them more than this, and don't think I want a 4th PW for red.
I will say, the Devils always play a lot better than they look, and even just spitting one out a turn is pretty good, but not good enough for my cube IMO.
This feels kind of like Serra the Benevolent to me in terms of what the + and ultimate do, but it doesn't crap out 4/4s. It does have immediate impact if you have a board when you play it though, and threatens to haste things out on consequent turns. I think overall it's similar to and better than... Sarkhan Vol? But it doesn't compete among top tier cards.
The negative feedback to this card is making me question how good Sorin, Lord of Innistrad still is.
Admittedly the lifelink on the creatures is nice as is the fact that making tokens is a plus ability. Also the Anthem is permanent. Despite those ways that Sorin is better I wonder how good Sorin LOI still is in the eyes of the Cubemunity. I still run it.
Really curious how this card is going to play in my more token heavy Cube with cards like Bombardment, Makeshift Munitions and Purphoros. Also makes UR Opposition decks better.
I don't think Sorin is that good anymore TBQH. It's nice in a tokens shell and stax, as well as generic goodstuff, but it's not necessary for any of those decks and there are lots of mono-W ways to buff tokens.
I find OG Kaya to be a much more interesting BW planeswalker, and better than Sorin in the decks where she shines, but I'm also an evangelist for her.
The negative feedback to this card is making me question how good Sorin, Lord of Innistrad still is.
I still play Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and think he is fine. But I definitely think the power creep in the last five years means his power level compared to the rest of the cube has significantly dropped.
Another comparison is Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which I still think is great. I see many people both here and on reddit claim Elspeth isn't good enough for cube anymore, but I think that is a bit ludicrous. However, I think comparing this new red walker to Elspeth shows were it falls flat on several faces. First of, making tokens on a +1 like Sorin and Elspeth, is a lot better than +0'ing, as they are slowly ticking towards their ultimate and also get harder to kill. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar get's a pass on his +0 because 2/2's are significantly better than 1/1's. Also, both Sorin's -2 anthem and Elspeth's +1 targeted buff compare very favorably to Zariels. Sorin's is a permanent buff to all creatures, which obviously is a lot better, while Elspeth's buff importantly grants evasion and makes a single target very beefy. Elspeth often lets me sneak through with a sword-caring token or something for huge impact. The haste on Zarial has a high ceiling, but it seems low impact compared to Elspeths effect. Lastly, Zariels ultimate seems low impact and does nothing for you unless you have control over the board. Effectively, Zariel pretty much only creates tokens, while Sorin/Elspeth seem more like actual planeswalkers with options that are more relevant and good ultimates.
In summary, I play Sorin and Elspeth at 360, and will probably continue with this for now. I'm not going to test Zariel I think, unless others post that she is overperforming.
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The negative feedback to this card is making me question how good Sorin, Lord of Innistrad still is.
I think Sorin is still decent, but isn't any better than mono white's 4-cmc planeswalker options. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar are much stronger, and it's probably weaker than Serra / Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis overall.
I do think Sorin is stronger than this though since it has a +1 ability to make a token and Sorin's anthem effect is quite strong. They do seem pretty close though.
Comparing across colors is difficult because they are trying to do different things, and can be stacked in different places. BW isn't super deep.
I appreciate the conversation from everyone and not trying to be super off topic.
I agree with what was said about Sorin/Elspeth feeling more like walkers and Zariel having a subpar ultimate. I think the haste on Zariel will have at least some impact and could really hit hard semi-unexpectedly.
A Walker token maker in red is not something we've had so having even a glimmer of it makes it test worthy at 540 for me.
As for Sorin LOI I am sad as to how much it has fallen. It used to be almost a top 10 Walker and I don't think it is close to that anymore.
I think I am underestimating how much worse it is for Zariel since she won't tick up with each token that's made.
I am still going to test this for a bit and will report back.
Yesterday, my playgroup questioned whether this was better than Koth of the Hammer because Koth is great when you're at the front in the game but poor in defensive situations. I saw that some people swapped Koth for it in their cubes, waiting for reports
this has some midrange/fires/RB sac applications that koth doesn’t.
think she’s a run of the mill planeswalker , which is generally .. pretty good
I played a lot with tibalt in standard and those 1/1 ping tokens play out much better than they seem.
Anthem + haste can be very powerful in the right circumstances, but red 5 drops are often hasty… so it depends on the deck.
I currently run four red planeswalkers but I'm about to cut two of them (Koth and Chandra, Flamecaller). I like this less than the two I'm cutting so this is a hard pass.
Red finally got a token generating 4-cmc walker and it's pretty... average? The 0 ain't bad and it compares to Gideon, Ally of Zendikar's 2/2s on defense, but it lacks Gideon's overall offense which is what makes him great. Seems like a good option for more fair cubes looking for more aristocrats / tokens support.
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Objectively I know it's not the most powerful but having additional support for midrange red, Aristocrats, tokens & Goblin Bombardment/Makeshift Munitions is more than enough for me to try this card.
I hope it plays well.
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For cube, devils are quite delightful, and I think the card will be decent enough, but never anything special.
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I will say, the Devils always play a lot better than they look, and even just spitting one out a turn is pretty good, but not good enough for my cube IMO.
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Admittedly the lifelink on the creatures is nice as is the fact that making tokens is a plus ability. Also the Anthem is permanent. Despite those ways that Sorin is better I wonder how good Sorin LOI still is in the eyes of the Cubemunity. I still run it.
Really curious how this card is going to play in my more token heavy Cube with cards like Bombardment, Makeshift Munitions and Purphoros. Also makes UR Opposition decks better.
Will report back once it has seen play.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
I find OG Kaya to be a much more interesting BW planeswalker, and better than Sorin in the decks where she shines, but I'm also an evangelist for her.
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I still play Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and think he is fine. But I definitely think the power creep in the last five years means his power level compared to the rest of the cube has significantly dropped.
Another comparison is Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which I still think is great. I see many people both here and on reddit claim Elspeth isn't good enough for cube anymore, but I think that is a bit ludicrous. However, I think comparing this new red walker to Elspeth shows were it falls flat on several faces. First of, making tokens on a +1 like Sorin and Elspeth, is a lot better than +0'ing, as they are slowly ticking towards their ultimate and also get harder to kill. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar get's a pass on his +0 because 2/2's are significantly better than 1/1's. Also, both Sorin's -2 anthem and Elspeth's +1 targeted buff compare very favorably to Zariels. Sorin's is a permanent buff to all creatures, which obviously is a lot better, while Elspeth's buff importantly grants evasion and makes a single target very beefy. Elspeth often lets me sneak through with a sword-caring token or something for huge impact. The haste on Zarial has a high ceiling, but it seems low impact compared to Elspeths effect. Lastly, Zariels ultimate seems low impact and does nothing for you unless you have control over the board. Effectively, Zariel pretty much only creates tokens, while Sorin/Elspeth seem more like actual planeswalkers with options that are more relevant and good ultimates.
In summary, I play Sorin and Elspeth at 360, and will probably continue with this for now. I'm not going to test Zariel I think, unless others post that she is overperforming.
I think Sorin is still decent, but isn't any better than mono white's 4-cmc planeswalker options. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar are much stronger, and it's probably weaker than Serra / Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis overall.
I do think Sorin is stronger than this though since it has a +1 ability to make a token and Sorin's anthem effect is quite strong. They do seem pretty close though.
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I appreciate the conversation from everyone and not trying to be super off topic.
I agree with what was said about Sorin/Elspeth feeling more like walkers and Zariel having a subpar ultimate. I think the haste on Zariel will have at least some impact and could really hit hard semi-unexpectedly.
A Walker token maker in red is not something we've had so having even a glimmer of it makes it test worthy at 540 for me.
As for Sorin LOI I am sad as to how much it has fallen. It used to be almost a top 10 Walker and I don't think it is close to that anymore.
I think I am underestimating how much worse it is for Zariel since she won't tick up with each token that's made.
I am still going to test this for a bit and will report back.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
this has some midrange/fires/RB sac applications that koth doesn’t.
think she’s a run of the mill planeswalker , which is generally .. pretty good
I played a lot with tibalt in standard and those 1/1 ping tokens play out much better than they seem.
Anthem + haste can be very powerful in the right circumstances, but red 5 drops are often hasty… so it depends on the deck.
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