Hinder for creatures and planeswalkers. Probably the best free counterspell after Force of Will / Force of Negation and arguably Daze. The ability is a alot more restrictive and much less abusable than Grief, but this sports a better body / evasion.
It isn't quite Hinder, though. It's Aether Gust for creatures and planeswalkers, since the owner of the spell chooses where it goes. I still think it's quite strong, and likely makes the cut, but I'd be much higher on it if you got to choose where it went.
EDIT: It does delay Thrun/Carnage Tyrant like Venser does, though, so that is a plus.
The evoke side is occasionally a great tempo play, but in general less useful than Grief's.
Not hitting instant/sorcery spells limits it's applications for/against combo decks.
I can see myself using the evoke mode on the backfoot to prevent being overwhelmed by a fast draw.
The creature side is a great tempo and value play and where the bulk of the cards power comes from. Doubt I'd play it if it were only the creature side, but the combination of the two abilities pushes it over the edge.
Note: Quite a bit worse than hinder since the opponent chooses if they want the card on the top or bottom of their library.
Just feels really narrow. Despise isn't good, and although that affect is much worse than this one, I think that exemplifies how narrow this set of targets can really be in game when you're trying to hold up the full 4 mana. Maybe this is cool at 540 or 630 or something?
I think we need to treat this much more as a 3/3 flash flyer for 4 than a free spell, as I think having to use the free spell mode is gonna be pretty brutal as you 2-for-1 yourself and your opponent gets to pick if they want the spell again or not. Given how competitive blue spots are now, I think I can miss with this at 465. I guess I could test it over Venser? Honestly Venser just feels better than this.
Also, as someone on Reddit said, nothing more subtle than a giant tidal wave lol.
Edit - at least it's not as brutal as leaving up a counterspell and them casting a spell you can't counter with it. WCS this is a 3/3 flash flyer which at least is a decent threat. So if you leave 4 mana up and this is your only counter, and they play a spell you can't counter, at least you can deploy a threat.
Going to be huge vs aggro decks when you're stuck with all of these cards in your hand. Even if you use this plus another expensive U card to slow down a turn 1 Goblin Guide it will be totally worth it.
I love this cycle.
Idk 360 blue is super tight but I wish I could try this out...probably won't be able to though :(.
I think if you're still playing Riftwing Cloudskate or Man-o'-War, I would make this swap for this card for sure.
I've got a feeling this one is being slightly underrated.
Obviously it's nowhere near as versatile as Venser, Shaper Savant, however 1) the body is much better 2) putting on top of library is miles better than returning to hand, 3) These Force of Will, Force of Negation type effects always end up being much stronger than they look. There's going to be plenty of times when your control deck has a grip full of cards and force of will'ing an opposing Karn Liberated or Primeval Titan is just going to be a blowout.
These free evoke spells are going to make Sword of Light and Shadow a lot better again, I think. This might be a nice option for cubing on a budget if you want something better than Foil or Thwart but still want something in that Force of Will slot- assuming this card doesn't end up being too expensive. Also, 3/3 flash flyers are just kind of good even if you can't counter something.
I've got a feeling this one is being slightly underrated.
Obviously it's nowhere near as versatile as Venser, Shaper Savant, however 1) the body is much better 2) putting on top of library is miles better than returning to hand,
Venser impacting both the stack and the board is more important than Subtlety's advantages, IMO.
- A Remand that also bounces any permanent is so much better than Despise x Aether Gust. There's a reason why Negate effects are played much more than Remove Soul type counters.
- I think the ability is too weak for the evoke cost to be worth it most of the time. This really needs to be able to disrupt high impact instants / sorceries. As far as combos goes, this only really disrupts non Splinter Twin parts of the Kiki-Combo and whatever your opponent is Channeling into.
- The body is cool, but this also lacks all the synergies that Venser has. Not much to abuse here.
This is a good tempo play and still a decent cube card, but my opinion on it has fallen quite a bit once I thought more about it (and realized that it's not a Hinder effect).
'Target creature or planeswalker spell' is such an unreliable line of text to have in a powered cube. You miss out on the best Force targets, and passing with 2UU open is going to raise all the alarms. The one saving grace for Subtlety is its tolerable floor. Still, I think it's a merely good card which has to compete in a slot filled with monsters.
Who has tested this card? How's it been? Is there room for it in a 465-card Powered Cube?
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I'm 2 years late to this question, but Subtlety has been pretty solid. It's arguably the worst of the MH2 elemental cycle, but that's like singling out X Kardashian sister for having less money than her siblings despite being wealthier than 99.9% of everyone else in the world.
Venser impacting both the stack and the board is more important than Subtlety's advantages, IMO.
Initiative / Minsc & Boo has caused me to flip on this. Flyers with flash are huge when playing the initiative / monarch game, and free tempo is more important than ever with how efficient / powerful threats are these days. Subtlety has been much better for me in my cube than Venser, Shaper Savant / Glen Elendra Archmage, which I've ended up cutting.
I'm curious though - What percentage of the time are you casting it / pitching it?
Hard to give a rough estimate of the percentage that you'd pitch it, but it's probably far less than the others in the cycle for two reasons:
1.) Its ability requires more strict timing and is generally more narrow.
2.) Blue already has a good amount of instant speed answers, so they can reserve Subtlety to be hardcast for full value.
That being said, it does have one of the better bodies for the cost. I can't stress enough how important flying is with all the monarch / initiative running around.
I'm curious though - What percentage of the time are you casting it / pitching it?
from my experiences a very rough estimate would be 60% cast 40% pitch?
Other elementals 70% pitch 30% cast?
The rule of thumb is pitch it if not pitching it will obviously cost you the game. Or if you are way ahead on cards in hand. It comes up more than I’d guess.
Today I pitch subtlety’d vs a turn 2 channeled 15 emrakul on the play… that felt quite nice.
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StaffHinder for creatures and planeswalkers. Probably the best free counterspell after Force of Will / Force of Negation and arguably Daze. The ability is a alot more restrictive and much less abusable than Grief, but this sports a better body / evasion.
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EDIT: It does delay Thrun/Carnage Tyrant like Venser does, though, so that is a plus.
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I have a question: Who played this card that chooses "top" or "buttom"?
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StaffThe spell's controller gets to choose top / bottom.
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You son of a b*tch, im in.
The evoke side is occasionally a great tempo play, but in general less useful than Grief's.
Not hitting instant/sorcery spells limits it's applications for/against combo decks.
I can see myself using the evoke mode on the backfoot to prevent being overwhelmed by a fast draw.
The creature side is a great tempo and value play and where the bulk of the cards power comes from. Doubt I'd play it if it were only the creature side, but the combination of the two abilities pushes it over the edge.
Note: Quite a bit worse than hinder since the opponent chooses if they want the card on the top or bottom of their library.
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My other issue with this card is that it doesn't have any flicker/recurring nightmare/reanimate synergies outside of exactly Restoration Angel, but it should be solid for those still using Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal
Also, as someone on Reddit said, nothing more subtle than a giant tidal wave lol.
Edit - at least it's not as brutal as leaving up a counterspell and them casting a spell you can't counter with it. WCS this is a 3/3 flash flyer which at least is a decent threat. So if you leave 4 mana up and this is your only counter, and they play a spell you can't counter, at least you can deploy a threat.
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Going to be huge vs aggro decks when you're stuck with all of these cards in your hand. Even if you use this plus another expensive U card to slow down a turn 1 Goblin Guide it will be totally worth it.
Curious to see how it plays out.
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Idk 360 blue is super tight but I wish I could try this out...probably won't be able to though :(.
I think if you're still playing Riftwing Cloudskate or Man-o'-War, I would make this swap for this card for sure.
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Obviously it's nowhere near as versatile as Venser, Shaper Savant, however 1) the body is much better 2) putting on top of library is miles better than returning to hand, 3) These Force of Will, Force of Negation type effects always end up being much stronger than they look. There's going to be plenty of times when your control deck has a grip full of cards and force of will'ing an opposing Karn Liberated or Primeval Titan is just going to be a blowout.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
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StaffYeah, I originally thought it was like Hinder too. That hurts a lot.
Venser impacting both the stack and the board is more important than Subtlety's advantages, IMO.
- A Remand that also bounces any permanent is so much better than Despise x Aether Gust. There's a reason why Negate effects are played much more than Remove Soul type counters.
- I think the ability is too weak for the evoke cost to be worth it most of the time. This really needs to be able to disrupt high impact instants / sorceries. As far as combos goes, this only really disrupts non Splinter Twin parts of the Kiki-Combo and whatever your opponent is Channeling into.
- The body is cool, but this also lacks all the synergies that Venser has. Not much to abuse here.
This is a good tempo play and still a decent cube card, but my opinion on it has fallen quite a bit once I thought more about it (and realized that it's not a Hinder effect).
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Cheers,
rant
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Cheers,
rant
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Nice pull though!
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StaffI'm 2 years late to this question, but Subtlety has been pretty solid. It's arguably the worst of the MH2 elemental cycle, but that's like singling out X Kardashian sister for having less money than her siblings despite being wealthier than 99.9% of everyone else in the world.
Initiative / Minsc & Boo has caused me to flip on this. Flyers with flash are huge when playing the initiative / monarch game, and free tempo is more important than ever with how efficient / powerful threats are these days. Subtlety has been much better for me in my cube than Venser, Shaper Savant / Glen Elendra Archmage, which I've ended up cutting.
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StaffHard to give a rough estimate of the percentage that you'd pitch it, but it's probably far less than the others in the cycle for two reasons:
1.) Its ability requires more strict timing and is generally more narrow.
2.) Blue already has a good amount of instant speed answers, so they can reserve Subtlety to be hardcast for full value.
That being said, it does have one of the better bodies for the cost. I can't stress enough how important flying is with all the monarch / initiative running around.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
from my experiences a very rough estimate would be 60% cast 40% pitch?
Other elementals 70% pitch 30% cast?
The rule of thumb is pitch it if not pitching it will obviously cost you the game. Or if you are way ahead on cards in hand. It comes up more than I’d guess.
Today I pitch subtlety’d vs a turn 2 channeled 15 emrakul on the play… that felt quite nice.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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