I jam Balance into any control deck. There are lots of situations where at least two of the modes will be advantageous. It's great with any planeswalker, but especially with Wrenn & Six in a Loam/Cruicble shell.
In reading this thread, it seems a lot of the cards being discussed are underperforming not because of the card itself but because the cube doesn't support the archetype(s) the card is meant for. If you don't support white aggro, of course Armageddon won't be good for you. If you don't support a bunch of fatty cheating decks, Sneak Attack and Show & Tell won't work out too well.
Many of the cards discussed here are among my favorites in the cube and nowhere near my chopping block.
Cheers,
rant
I think its great we can talk about how to correctly support good cards. I think SCD are lacking "This is the type of support needed to make this card good.
Here is something I'm missing a bit. I find these two cards a bit underwhelming.
The problem is whenever I'm playing Red/White aggro, Red/Black Aggro etc. I always preferred a 1 mana 2/1 over Swiftspear 70% of the time. Aristocrats, Red-White Aggro, Black Aggro don't really have the spell density to consistently trigger swiftspear.
Boros Charm is also been a bit meh for me. I think I would prefer a lightning strike variant. The reason is pretty similar - Its too restrictive and out of 4-5 aggressive flavor decks, only 1 could play it.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
EDIT: I'm going to remove using the loaded term "sacred cow". I'm going to open this thread to discuss cards that were considered staples 2-3 years before but are under performing.
I'm going to open with some cards on my list:
Black: Liliana of the Veil - This is prob the most contentious, but given the number of token generators, haste creatures, draw-7/ card advantage engines, I think the time for Liliana of the Veil has passed. She is a good discard outlet but that is all I feel that is going for her Heir of Falkenrath Kitesail Freebooter Braids, Cabal Minion
Colorless: Mimic Vat Smokestack Sword of Light and Shadow - This is just too slow these days IMO. The lifegain + recursion isn't really worth it for me, especially given we have much better recursion engines.
So, in general, when I've noticed a card underperforming in my environment, I always try to think of why?
Playtesting with a card can illuminate variables you under/over rated or missed in your theoretical analysis... but until your sample is large, be careful not to read into too much to a couple experiences.
In general, as time passes and power level increases, mana efficiency and speed becomes more important. Cards that generated a lot of card advantage but at an ineffecient rate, or over time have become increasingly worse. If you look at most of the cards on your list, they would fall under that category. With that in mind.
I agree most of the cards you've listed, but disagree strongly about a few.
Liliana of the veil - She's gotten worse yes, but she's still a 3 mana engine that can win the game on her own, immediately effect the board and act as a discard outlet for reanimator. Turn 1 Dark ritual -> Liliana is up there with the strongest ""Fair"" lines in the game.
Firebolt - 1 mana kill something in a format where it often trades up in mana is just good. Green has a billion elves and all agro colors run plenty of cards that die to it that cost 1-2 mana. AND can go face.
Fireblast - Again, as time passes mana efficiency and speed become more important and this card is the definition of both those qualities. I would argue its better today than ever in that regard.. However, slightly more lifegain has been printed, so the effectiveness of burn might be slightly lower... depending on your cube combination. Narrow? Yes. Powerful? Very.
Craterhoof behemoth - Why would this be much worse than before? It ends the game when it's cast and can be cheated out relatively quick via natural order of gaea's cradle. If anything the increase in token generation means you have a better chance to have the right # of creatures to end the game. It's a get your opponent dead no-nonsense card.
I think its good to have a healthy amount of disagreement here.
- Liliana of the Veil was a card I've first picked aggressively, but I've found the discard to be fairly even. Especially with the full playset of Talisman/ Signets, I've found 4 CMC planeswalkers really improved in stock. I'm just surprised how close she is to the cutting block.
One of the key reasons to play Liliana in Modern/ Legacy is your deck game 1 is filled with removal spells that have limited impact against combo/ control decks and the discard is very asymmetrical. This doesn't happen too much in cube.
- FireBolt - The more I think about it, the more I realize the importance have having an 1 CMC red removal. We have Burst Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Spikefield Hazard. FireBolt really isn't too far off. I think I've been a bit too focused on how rarely I've used its flashback.
I'm going to have to think more about Firebolt - I haven't been too impressed by any 3 CMC burn spells. I like the idea of giving red cards like Purphoros's Intervention or Magmatic Sinkhole to play the long game. I still a shock variant like Galvanic Blast or Wild Slash might be a bit better.
- Fireblast - I'm willing to give this a second try. Objectively its probably strong enough for my cube, but I just find it odd that I'm devoting a slot to mono-red that performs at best around the same level as the 5-6 best burn spell in my cube.
I see this as Entomb vs Thirst for Knowledge. Entomb is really narrow but VERY powerful in the Reanimator/ possibly Loam decks. Thirst is very broad, could be played almost anywhere - Artifacts, Reanimator, Storm, and even control, but its never really insane anywhere. I'm more than happy to devote a card like Entomb to my cube to help one archetype. But I don't like the idea of Fireblast where it feels like a Thirst for Knowledge level for Reanimator Decks and could only really be used by Reanimator.
For both Fireblast and Firebolt, I'm going to think more if they are stronger than shock variants or Searing Blaze/ Searing Blood. I feel with Rabblemaster Variants + Hazoret, I find red decks are winning more through combat and alot less through burn. I think shock variants are incredibly important at remove early blockers, setup creatures (looters/ mana dorks) is incredibly important.
- Craterhoof Behemoth - You're absolutely right. The more I think about it, the more I realize no other green ramp finisher ends the game as quickly as Craterhoof. I was hoping to replace him with a fatty that could be more flexible and could be played in Sneak Attack, Reanimator, Artifact Ramp, and Green ramp, but the other options are no where close to as good as he is.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I personally don't know if judging by main deck percentage is the best way to go. There are several reasons from my game play experience that a card might see less maindeck play:
- If I see a card that is a rarely seen effect - I.e. Gaea's Cradle, SkullClamp, Crucible of Worlds, I would pick it Pick 1, Pack 1/2 - The other cards are pretty replaceable, I might get lucky and see both Loam + Strip Mine etc.
- There are cards that are build arounds and not intended to be played as frequently. There is almost no green deck that will not play Birds of Paradise, but cards like Griselbrand require a build around.
I agree that maindeck percentage alone is not a good measure of overall cube performance but I do think it is an important factor to consider. The best cube cards have a high maindeck percentage and a high win rate. The worst cube cards have a low maindeck percentage and a low win rate. Serviceable cube cards fall somewhere in the middle. Your example of Griselbrand is a great one. It has a lower maindeck percentage because it needs to be built around, but it is sufficiently powerful that it has a high enough win rate to offset its low maindeck percentage.
Unfortunately this is not the case for Armageddon in my cube. It has a maindeck percentage of only 32.50% and a win rate of 51.16% for an overall cube rating of 41.83%. This is dismal. Out of all 360 cards in my list it is ranked 352nd. Griselbrand by comparison has an overall rating of 55.55% ranked 261st out of 360 cards.
Overall Armageddon has not been performing well enough to justify its low maindeck percentage in my list.
I think its still possible to have some control deck that has Frantic Search / Palinchron / High Tide as a finisher, but the red- black rituals/ recursions / storm cards days may be numbered ...
- I love Splinter Twin, but the consistency just isn't there and there are so many good Blue 3 CMC + Red 4 CMC options that its getting difficult to defend keeping 4-5 cards for an archetype that occasionally comes together.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
The problem is whenever I'm playing Red/White aggro, Red/Black Aggro etc. I always preferred a 1 mana 2/1 over Swiftspear 70% of the time. Aristocrats, Red-White Aggro, Black Aggro don't really have the spell density to consistently trigger swiftspear.
Swiftspear is great in the 10 burn spell aggro decks, not the 19 creature ones, so yeah, if you don't see 10+ spell Rx aggro/burn very often, it will underwhelm. I keep switspear because in those decks it's so much better than a random 2/1, AND the line of mountain swifspear mox diamond slam for 2 on turn 1 is great.
I agree most of the cards you've listed, but disagree strongly about a few.
Liliana of the veil - She's gotten worse yes, but she's still a 3 mana engine that can win the game on her own, immediately effect the board and act as a discard outlet for reanimator. Turn 1 Dark ritual -> Liliana is up there with the strongest ""Fair"" lines in the game.
Firebolt - 1 mana kill something in a format where it often trades up in mana is just good. Green has a billion elves and all agro colors run plenty of cards that die to it that cost 1-2 mana. AND can go face.
Fireblast - Again, as time passes mana efficiency and speed become more important and this card is the definition of both those qualities. I would argue its better today than ever in that regard.. However, slightly more lifegain has been printed, so the effectiveness of burn might be slightly lower... depending on your cube combination. Narrow? Yes. Powerful? Very.
Craterhoof behemoth - Why would this be much worse than before? It ends the game when it's cast and can be cheated out relatively quick via natural order of gaea's cradle. If anything the increase in token generation means you have a better chance to have the right # of creatures to end the game. It's a get your opponent dead no-nonsense card.
I'm going to revise my comments about 2 of these cards:
- Fireblast - has been a bit less narrow than I thought. I've seen it played as a SB card in slower red decks, such as Red-Green lands etc. to try to race faster combo decks, such as Reanimator, Storm etc. I also like its interaction with Thousand-year storm, Shark Typhoon and storm spells in general. I'm not huge on Fireblast, but I do like its less narrow than I thought.
- Craterhoof Behemoth - Definitely insane powerful. Not the most versatile fatty, but a really cool build around. Especially with Mirror Entity being cut from my cube, I think having a strong 8 mana finisher adds diversity to "Fatty" decks.
My opinion on these 2 cards stay relatively the same:
- Firebolt - I'm not that interested in this card. I feel the instant speed from a card like Galvanic Blast is more important than the flash back of Firebolt - I've found the tempo loss of not being able to EOT shock has been causing games. I'm prob not gonna cut it, but it is getting close.
- Liliana of the Veil - She's really not what she used to be 4-5 years ago with the format speeding up and value decks getting stronger and stronger. I've had so many occasions where I did not play her in my deck after drafting reanimator.
I'm still surprised that this was a card I would hate draft as a control player is now this close to the cutting block.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think its great we can talk about how to correctly support good cards. I think SCD are lacking "This is the type of support needed to make this card good.
Here is something I'm missing a bit. I find these two cards a bit underwhelming.
Boros Charm
Monastery Swiftspear
The problem is whenever I'm playing Red/White aggro, Red/Black Aggro etc. I always preferred a 1 mana 2/1 over Swiftspear 70% of the time. Aristocrats, Red-White Aggro, Black Aggro don't really have the spell density to consistently trigger swiftspear.
Boros Charm is also been a bit meh for me. I think I would prefer a lightning strike variant. The reason is pretty similar - Its too restrictive and out of 4-5 aggressive flavor decks, only 1 could play it.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
So, in general, when I've noticed a card underperforming in my environment, I always try to think of why?
Playtesting with a card can illuminate variables you under/over rated or missed in your theoretical analysis... but until your sample is large, be careful not to read into too much to a couple experiences.
In general, as time passes and power level increases, mana efficiency and speed becomes more important. Cards that generated a lot of card advantage but at an ineffecient rate, or over time have become increasingly worse. If you look at most of the cards on your list, they would fall under that category. With that in mind.
I agree most of the cards you've listed, but disagree strongly about a few.
Liliana of the veil - She's gotten worse yes, but she's still a 3 mana engine that can win the game on her own, immediately effect the board and act as a discard outlet for reanimator. Turn 1 Dark ritual -> Liliana is up there with the strongest ""Fair"" lines in the game.
Firebolt - 1 mana kill something in a format where it often trades up in mana is just good. Green has a billion elves and all agro colors run plenty of cards that die to it that cost 1-2 mana. AND can go face.
Fireblast - Again, as time passes mana efficiency and speed become more important and this card is the definition of both those qualities. I would argue its better today than ever in that regard.. However, slightly more lifegain has been printed, so the effectiveness of burn might be slightly lower... depending on your cube combination. Narrow? Yes. Powerful? Very.
Craterhoof behemoth - Why would this be much worse than before? It ends the game when it's cast and can be cheated out relatively quick via natural order of gaea's cradle. If anything the increase in token generation means you have a better chance to have the right # of creatures to end the game. It's a get your opponent dead no-nonsense card.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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- Liliana of the Veil was a card I've first picked aggressively, but I've found the discard to be fairly even. Especially with the full playset of Talisman/ Signets, I've found 4 CMC planeswalkers really improved in stock. I'm just surprised how close she is to the cutting block.
One of the key reasons to play Liliana in Modern/ Legacy is your deck game 1 is filled with removal spells that have limited impact against combo/ control decks and the discard is very asymmetrical. This doesn't happen too much in cube.
- FireBolt - The more I think about it, the more I realize the importance have having an 1 CMC red removal. We have Burst Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Spikefield Hazard. FireBolt really isn't too far off. I think I've been a bit too focused on how rarely I've used its flashback.
I'm going to have to think more about Firebolt - I haven't been too impressed by any 3 CMC burn spells. I like the idea of giving red cards like Purphoros's Intervention or Magmatic Sinkhole to play the long game. I still a shock variant like Galvanic Blast or Wild Slash might be a bit better.
- Fireblast - I'm willing to give this a second try. Objectively its probably strong enough for my cube, but I just find it odd that I'm devoting a slot to mono-red that performs at best around the same level as the 5-6 best burn spell in my cube.
I see this as Entomb vs Thirst for Knowledge. Entomb is really narrow but VERY powerful in the Reanimator/ possibly Loam decks. Thirst is very broad, could be played almost anywhere - Artifacts, Reanimator, Storm, and even control, but its never really insane anywhere. I'm more than happy to devote a card like Entomb to my cube to help one archetype. But I don't like the idea of Fireblast where it feels like a Thirst for Knowledge level for Reanimator Decks and could only really be used by Reanimator.
For both Fireblast and Firebolt, I'm going to think more if they are stronger than shock variants or Searing Blaze/ Searing Blood. I feel with Rabblemaster Variants + Hazoret, I find red decks are winning more through combat and alot less through burn. I think shock variants are incredibly important at remove early blockers, setup creatures (looters/ mana dorks) is incredibly important.
- Craterhoof Behemoth - You're absolutely right. The more I think about it, the more I realize no other green ramp finisher ends the game as quickly as Craterhoof. I was hoping to replace him with a fatty that could be more flexible and could be played in Sneak Attack, Reanimator, Artifact Ramp, and Green ramp, but the other options are no where close to as good as he is.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I agree that maindeck percentage alone is not a good measure of overall cube performance but I do think it is an important factor to consider. The best cube cards have a high maindeck percentage and a high win rate. The worst cube cards have a low maindeck percentage and a low win rate. Serviceable cube cards fall somewhere in the middle. Your example of Griselbrand is a great one. It has a lower maindeck percentage because it needs to be built around, but it is sufficiently powerful that it has a high enough win rate to offset its low maindeck percentage.
Unfortunately this is not the case for Armageddon in my cube. It has a maindeck percentage of only 32.50% and a win rate of 51.16% for an overall cube rating of 41.83%. This is dismal. Out of all 360 cards in my list it is ranked 352nd. Griselbrand by comparison has an overall rating of 55.55% ranked 261st out of 360 cards.
Overall Armageddon has not been performing well enough to justify its low maindeck percentage in my list.
- Shark Typhoon / Thousand-Year Storm / Bolas's Citadel slotted into a spells-matters style control deck just feels like a more consistent and non- parasitic.
I think its still possible to have some control deck that has Frantic Search / Palinchron / High Tide as a finisher, but the red- black rituals/ recursions / storm cards days may be numbered ...
- I love Splinter Twin, but the consistency just isn't there and there are so many good Blue 3 CMC + Red 4 CMC options that its getting difficult to defend keeping 4-5 cards for an archetype that occasionally comes together.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Swiftspear is great in the 10 burn spell aggro decks, not the 19 creature ones, so yeah, if you don't see 10+ spell Rx aggro/burn very often, it will underwhelm. I keep switspear because in those decks it's so much better than a random 2/1, AND the line of mountain swifspear mox diamond slam for 2 on turn 1 is great.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I'm going to revise my comments about 2 of these cards:
- Fireblast - has been a bit less narrow than I thought. I've seen it played as a SB card in slower red decks, such as Red-Green lands etc. to try to race faster combo decks, such as Reanimator, Storm etc. I also like its interaction with Thousand-year storm, Shark Typhoon and storm spells in general. I'm not huge on Fireblast, but I do like its less narrow than I thought.
- Craterhoof Behemoth - Definitely insane powerful. Not the most versatile fatty, but a really cool build around. Especially with Mirror Entity being cut from my cube, I think having a strong 8 mana finisher adds diversity to "Fatty" decks.
My opinion on these 2 cards stay relatively the same:
- Firebolt - I'm not that interested in this card. I feel the instant speed from a card like Galvanic Blast is more important than the flash back of Firebolt - I've found the tempo loss of not being able to EOT shock has been causing games. I'm prob not gonna cut it, but it is getting close.
- Liliana of the Veil - She's really not what she used to be 4-5 years ago with the format speeding up and value decks getting stronger and stronger. I've had so many occasions where I did not play her in my deck after drafting reanimator.
I'm still surprised that this was a card I would hate draft as a control player is now this close to the cutting block.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i