EDIT: I'm going to remove using the loaded term "sacred cow". I'm going to open this thread to discuss cards that were considered staples 2-3 years before but are under performing.
I'm going to open with some cards on my list:
Black: Liliana of the Veil - This is prob the most contentious, but given the number of token generators, haste creatures, draw-7/ card advantage engines, I think the time for Liliana of the Veil has passed. She is a good discard outlet but that is all I feel that is going for her Heir of Falkenrath Kitesail Freebooter Braids, Cabal Minion
Colorless: Mimic Vat Smokestack Sword of Light and Shadow - This is just too slow these days IMO. The lifegain + recursion isn't really worth it for me, especially given we have much better recursion engines.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I cut Fireblast in 2020 for Shatterskull Smashing. Fireblast is incredible for red aggro and can increase that deck's clock by a full turn, but unplayable everywhere else, and I do not think Red Aggro needs Fireblast to succeed.
I love Forbid, but also cut that for Force of Negation, which is just the better 3cmc Counterspell.
I don't see those other cards included in many cubes, except maybe Putrid Imp. I think Putrid Imp is a fine inclusion for cubes that don't support black aggro and instead are more all-in on Reanimator like the MTGO Vintage cube.
Here's a Sacred Cow I've been debating with myself recently: Sulfuric Vortex. I remember Vortex and Goblin Guide being the signal that Red Aggro is open. Now, I don't know if it's needed. There's an infinite number of Goblin Rabblemaster variants I could include instead of Vortex, and Rabblemasters are playable in a wider variety of decks. The only thing saving Vortex for me is the anti-lifegain clause.
Few other's I've thought about:
Land Tax I cut this at the end of 2020. Great card to sideboard in on the draw, but inconsistent. I think my UW control decks have enough card draw that they don't need Land Tax and my Wx Aggro decks don't really need Land Tax either.
Smokestack: Another 2020 cut. So much Token creation and card draw in cube now that both players generally are able to play around Smokestack.
Wildfire: I believe I cut this in 2019. Great card against Green decks, but I was finding the Wildfire deck struggled against everything else.
- Sulfuric Vortex is a card I'm also not that excited about - especially with all the rabblemaster variants. Its a mid level cut. I'm still thinking about it
- I actually cut Forbid for Disdainful stroke. I find two mana counters are just too important and pretty much everything I care about, outside of Oko, Recurring Nightmare and Sword of Fire and Ice costs 4 or more.
- Land Tax, Smokestack and WildFire are cards I will admit have lost a lot of value over the year and they are becoming weaker and weaker. I'm reluctant to cut them because they are fun build arounds and give the color something else to do other than aggro/ control etc.
WildFire is almost never going to get the cut for me - it is an important archetype anchor cards and I really don't like the direction of cubes pushing out any card that isn't hyper efficient in aggro, ramp or combo.
Land Tax is something a lot of my friends like. I'm not a fan of it, but I like it more than adding another white Savanna Lions.
Smokestack and Braids are too slow right now. They are too weak and too difficult to make them work. Again, I don't like having to removing yet another archetype.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
What is a sacred Cow?
Specifically, these are cards that are nearly ubiquitous that may be reaching a point where their time is passed.
What are everyone else's thoughts?
Happy New Year!
I agree with some cards you mentioned, but not all - however, I want to give my opinion on the matter as a whole.
After the first two years min-maxing my Cube according to what is strongest, strongly relying on the data I got from MTGS and from draft-nights, I realised that there are cards that, while becoming weaker and weaker, I definetly want to play. The cards becoming weaker is due to the increased powerlevel of cards created these days, where every permanent has a spell tacked onto it and has to be a 2 for 1 at least to be worth it.
I identified these cards and a few more as the fixed stars I want to align my Cube experience to. I want to play those cards, so I will, and if that means not playing all the very strongest cards I don't care. Otherwise I couldn't play my Cube as is since I don't have P9 and similar. Now, if they print a Braids with CMC 3 (which they'll never ever do), I will cut the original Braids for that - it's not about the specific card, but rather about the effect and the archetype the effect opens in the Cube. These cards are not uncuttable, but I will only replace them with cards with similar or the same effects or something I enjoy even more.
I don't want to discourage people using the concept of sacred cows to discuss cards that lost a lot of their power due to the competiton of new cards - but one should not fall prey to the belief that as a Cube curator one is at the mercy of Wizards and the FOMO regarding new pushed cards.
I'm increasingly less fond of the use of "Sacred Cow" threads to describe cards that have fallen out of fashion in one's own cube because these threads generally imply others should follow suit based on your observations and experience but cubes are so diverse in nature now and other cubes may run packages that better support certain cards than your own cube might leading to different results for that card overall. I support discussing cards that aren't working for you, but would avoid broad generalizations like "Specifically, these are cards that are nearly ubiquitous that may be reaching a point where their time is passed."
That said your list does hit on several cards that are becoming borderline or no longer good enough for my 450 unpowered list. Faerie Conclave, Meloku, Kitesail Freebooter, and Acidic Slime, and even Wildfire in particular have been on my chopping block. I've also just found that supporting an artifact package in general for a non-powered list like mine is rather difficult as I don't run fast colorless mana like Grim Monolith or the swords. I'm looking forward to more playable equipment, vehicles, and just artifacts in general. I'm even thinking about sidelining Urza for a while until there are more plentiful artifact options for a cube like mine.
I'm increasingly less fond of the use of "Sacred Cow" threads to describe cards that have fallen out of fashion in one's own cube because these threads generally imply others should follow suit based on your observations and experience but cubes are so diverse in nature now and other cubes may run packages that better support certain cards than your own cube might leading to different results for that card overall. I support discussing cards that aren't working for you, but would avoid broad generalizations like "Specifically, these are cards that are nearly ubiquitous that may be reaching a point where their time is passed."
Yup. It's 2021 now, and I would've hoped we've all developed a good enough understanding of cube as a format to know how true this is. I'm done with discussions about "sacred cows", "pet cards", or any discussion that claims that cards are "bad".
Play the cards that work for you and your playgroup. There's no right or wrong way to cube, and simply because a card doesn't work for your playgroup doesn't mean it's a "sacred cow" or that the card is "bad" ...at all.
This is a quote from a tweet I sent out earlier this month:
Quote from wtwlf123 »
If you and your playgroup are having fun with your cube, then it’s a good cube. If you and your playgroup have fun cubing with a specific card, then it’s a good card for your cube. Full stop. There’s no wrong way to eat this Reese’s.
I'm honestly kinda bored with philosophies that differ from this maxim.
If you and your playgroup have fun supporting specific decks and strategies, go for it. If you and your playgroup have fun using specific cards, and those cards are contributing to achieving your cube goals and still convert into success at the table, they're good cards.
If you and your playgroup are having fun with your cube, then it’s a good cube. If you and your playgroup have fun cubing with a specific card, then it’s a good card for your cube. Full stop. There’s no wrong way to eat this Reese’s.
I definitely agree with this statement.
My cube group is unique in the sense that we have a large MTG community where 20+ people often draft between 2-3 cubes in my group. I also have 2 friends outside this group that own cubes. We don't have set draft days, set number of people to cube and we don't read each other's cube updates that closely. In addition, a lot of the cube drafters are relatively new cubers.
In order for these cube experiences to be fun in this type environment, I find I should adhere to these rules:
- The cube should have a metagame similar to the MTGO cube/ similar vintage cubes.
- Cube curators need to ensure all the cards outside of the power 9/ 50 strongest cards are of relative power level
- There aren't trap archetypes + build around cards should reward players.
- Narrow cards that are only good in 1-2 decks (such as Meloku or Sulfuric Vortex) should perform exceptionally well in those decks
For example, Sulfuric Vortex should remain a relatively strong burn card + wheeling Vortex should indicate that RDW is open. However, I'm more or less noticing this is not the case - The speed of combo decks + control/ midrange decks having more answers to Sulfuric Vortex is making it worse and worse.
Similarly, Meloku the Clouded Mirror/ Eternal Dragon used to be excellent control finishers but they have recently significantly under performed.
If WildFire is in the cube, then the WildFire deck should do relatively well. I had a new friend that read my Vintage Cube Card intro guide and drafted a pretty good WildFire/ Loam deck, but went 0-3 not really because he wasn't a great player but because WildFire just wasn't that great in the meta.
This is why cutting sacred cows is pretty important to my cube - I try to stay relatively in the norm to avoid misleading people.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
For me, sacred cow discussions are incredibly helpful. I agree with wtwlf123’s sentiment re: playing whatever makes your group happy, but that that sentiment is not necessarily at odds with using other Cube owners’ opinions and experiences on what cards are “good” or “bad” to help hone your list to be something that your group enjoys maximally. Identifying a “sacred cow” helps me identify my own Cube bias and question every slot.
Everyone here has essentially done that for years across every card discussion thread. Even though our Cubes are unique, we’ve all learned from one another’s perspectives. I could list 10+ regular Cubers here whose lists I’ve studied for many hours on end to improve my Cube experience, and I never 100% agree with their card assessments, but by combining perspectives I’m able to build a list that is way more fun than a list created from my insular experiences.
I’ll post more thoughts on specific sacred cow card choices later, but in general I do agree with some cards listed here and disagree with others, of course.
I have a general dislike for expensive, clucky cards or any grindy midrange. I have a slightly higher preference for cheap interactions - removal, discard and slashy build arounds/ finishers.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
The problem with labeling a list of cards as "sacred cows" is that it immediately slants the argument. You're not looking for feedback on whether players are having success with those cards, you're starting the discussion off by calling them bad.
You don't have a list of sacred cows in the OP, you have a list of good cube cards that happened to not work out for your playgroup for one reason or another. And that's fine. There are a lot of cube cards other groups love that I don't like for my own cube. But that doesn't make them "bad". It also doesn't make them "sacred cows" or "pet cards" either. It simply means that my environment (based on playgroup, objectives, or some other metric) wasn't ideally suited for those cards.
Popular cube cards that struggle to perform in your playgroup are simply that. I don't run any of the cards listed in this thread because they're uncuttable "sacred cows". I don't have any uncuttable cards in my cube. All those cards are included because they still contribute to game wins and assist in accomplishing my cube's goals. Just because they don't work for you doesn't mean they're bad (or "sacred cows" or any other clickbaity term you want to use to start the discussion off on the wrong foot).
I don't know, I'm just tired of the lack of constructive discourse in the community, and all labels like "sacred cow" and "pet card" do is make those issues worse. I've become bored with "these cards are bad, don't play them" kinds of takes. I'm far more interested in what unpopular cards people have successes with than popular ones they're arbitrarily trying to dethrone. Sell people on the merits of inclusion, and leave cuts to their playgroup. It took me a long time and a lot of personal growth and evolution to get to this mindset. Hell, I built a reputation on providing cutthroat analysis. But over the years, cube has changed, and I think it's been time to err on the side of positivity for a long time now. Just my $0.02 I guess.
I think I see where you’re coming from, and it’s a valid perspective. For me, I see “sacred cows” similarly to how you described - questioning cards considered all-around great Cube cards by the majority of the Cube community - but I see these discussions as helpful for my list perhaps because I am never 100% certain that a card is still awesome even though they have performed well in my Cube list for years. These days my group in particular gets to “marathon Cube” (spend an extended weekend Cubing for many hours on end) about once every three months or so rather than one Cube draft weekly, and when we do we have a bunch of old school guys drafting a lot of cards for the first time without many reps to make major adjustments to new cards and strategies.
I see some “sacred cows” that I feel are obviously good Cube cards for obvious reasons, but I like hearing that someone thinks that X “staple” Cube card is not good anymore because it helps me consider the card from a fresh perspective. If I immediately write off 9 out of 10 sacred cow hot takes but the discussion causes me to ponder on one, it’s still a fruitful thread for me to read.
In this thread I think one example is Forbid - I like it a lot, but I do want to remain aware of this card’s future performance as we have added a lot of efficient blue card support that in theory makes Forbid clunkier than it used to be in our list.
@wtwlf123 - I think you might have misread my intention. I listed a few cards off the top of my head to try to re-start the thread for 2021.
"You don't have a list of sacred cows in the OP, you have a list of good cube cards that happened to not work out for your playgroup for one reason or another. And that's fine. There are a lot of cube cards other groups love that I don't like for my own cube. But that doesn't make them "bad". It also doesn't make them "sacred cows" or "pet cards" either. It simply means that my environment (based on playgroup, objectives, or some other metric) wasn't ideally suited for those cards. "
You are right ... I have misused the term. I'll correct the forum opening thread with a card list without my reasonings and I'll add cards being discussed in this forum instead. This is probably not the best way to open a forum.
I've watched enough cube videos where cube curators would propose cuts followed by their reasoning. This was how I envisioned this forum start off, but it didn't turn out that way ..
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't with pointing out cards that haven't worked for you and sharing the reasoning as to why they haven't worked for you. The problem is using loaded terminology like "Sacred Cow" and implying that these cards are universally outdated broadly speaking because of your individual experiences and observations with them. There's a degree of hubris in this approach to card evaluation that intentionally or not invalidates other's cube designs/decisions and posits your take as superior.
You could keep the whole opening post including your individual card evaluations and just ditch the Sacred Cow terminology and any references to your opinions on these cards being de facto evidence that these cards are outdated broadly speaking and it would be fine. You can influence people to examine their own design choices just by sharing your own experience with the cards and letting that stand on its own.
I don’t really understand the emotion here. Isn’t the point of this forum to make opinionated claims about card choices, even if they’re unpopular? Reading “sacred cow” discussions are more helpful for me personally than consensus opinion because it draws attention to cards I often overlook in my list, even if I disagree with the hot take. I don’t see it as necessarily having more “hubris” than making a highly opinionated claim that is more mainstream - even if it is drawing attention to the card in a manner that could be applicable to all list and suggests that there may be some community bias toward the card. I think it’s fair to presuppose that we are a community that is slow to change, and for that reason I think our lists sometimes play formerly-awesome-but-now-outdated cards longer than needed. I experienced this recently with Yavimaya Elder which I (and most of the Cube community) used to consider a Cube staple and glossed over it for far too long because of this label in my head - it became a sacred cow in that way.
There’s a Cube YouTube channel (forgot the name) that did a sacred cow video I disagreed with entirely, but it was interesting content to listen to and at minimum helped me consider possible blind spots.
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't with pointing out cards that haven't worked for you and sharing the reasoning as to why they haven't worked for you. The problem is using loaded terminology like "Sacred Cow" and implying that these cards are universally outdated broadly speaking because of your individual experiences and observations with them. There's a degree of hubris in this approach to card evaluation that intentionally or not invalidates other's cube designs/decisions and posits your take as superior.
You could keep the whole opening post including your individual card evaluations and just ditch the Sacred Cow terminology and any references to your opinions on these cards being de facto evidence that these cards are outdated broadly speaking and it would be fine. You can influence people to examine their own design choices just by sharing your own experience with the cards and letting that stand on its own.
Sure. That sounds like the best approach. Sacred Cow is prob too much of a loaded term.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Isn’t the point of this forum to make opinionated claims about card choices, even if they’re unpopular?
I think the point of the forum is to generate meaningful discussion about the format. And there are better and less clickbaity ways to do this in 2021 than creating threads whose sole purpose is to say "look at all these cards ya'll run that are actually bad (aka their time has passed)".
If this is the kind of discussion you guys are looking for, cool. It's just not my cup of tea anymore. I've outgrown it (and have for some time now) and am personally pretty bored with these kinds of takes.
Excite me with information about what underutilized cards are great. Sell me on exploring new ideas. But telling people that cards have "passed their time" simply because they don't work for your playgroup is a tired, toxic take. Doing so with charged labels like "pet card" and "sacred cow" is just dialing an already bad take up to 11. It assumes that people are only running cards because they don't know any better, and it's insulting to insinuate that about cube managers simply because they disagree with your take. That's the hubris that BlackWaltz is talking about.
I just thought we were beyond this kind of discussion at this point, but I guess not. Enjoy the thread ya'll, I'm going to move onto more constructive content.
I'm not sure why sharing my take on why this framework is problematic is being construed as "becoming emotional". I can have a strong opinion about this without it being because my emotions are running unchecked...I'm speaking as someone who has created threads like this years ago and has grown to appreciate that it wasn't the most constructive way to share my opinion.
I'm not against someone sharing opinions about cards based on their own experiences - popular or otherwise. I'm against positing your individual experiences/observations as evidence that particular cards are outdated and others choices to continue to run them might be because they haven't caught on like you have (Statements such as "I think it’s fair to presuppose that we are a community that is slow to change" are representative of this mindset). The issue here isn't with sharing one's opinions about cards, it is the framework by which one does so. I already provided recommendations in my previous post on how someone can share their thoughts on cards without adopting this framework.
To me helpful card related discussions fall into two categories: cards I should try and cards I should cut. Reading the sacred cow stuff helps me consider cards I should cut that I often overlook because I’ve labeled them as a staple in my brain.
But yeah totally cool to not engage obviously. I was unaware that this type of discussion could be viewed as toxic, but I respect the perspective of it’s not enjoyable for some.
But yeah totally cool to not engage obviously. I was unaware that this type of discussion could be viewed as toxic, but I respect the perspective of it’s not enjoyable for some.
I haven't cubed in forever due to the pandemic and not playing online but yeah, obviously participation is voluntary But I'm not sure comments like 'this bores me, I've totally outgrow this type of discussion' is "totally cool" lmao.
I'm speaking as someone who has created threads like this years ago and has grown to appreciate that it wasn't the most constructive way to share my opinion.
Oh man, me too but to the Nth degree. I built a reputation on being an uncompromising critic of cube cards. But I (just like the format) have evolved over the years, and have tried to approach both design and content creation with a more positive, inclusive attitude. Cube is simply too broad a community and there's so much variety in cube goals and objectives that "Card X is bad/outdated in cube" is just not an applicable take anymore. But again, this is just my $0.02 and there are some folks that really do enjoy this kind of content. By all means, keep at it if it interests you. It's just not for me.
But yeah totally cool to not engage obviously. I was unaware that this type of discussion could be viewed as toxic, but I respect the perspective of it’s not enjoyable for some.
Ya, maybe I should've just elected not to engage. I was hoping to encourage more positive discussion, which in turn would generate more interest, but maybe I'm not helping.
Quote from Marl Karx »
I'm not sure comments like 'this bores me, I've totally outgrow this type of discussion' is "totally cool" lmao.
Ya, you're right. It's probably not.
If it's genuinely being done as a tool to help people identify potentially cuttable cards they might be overlooking, there's a constructive way to do it and it can be valuable. The way it was originally presented (before the edits) was more along the lines of "here's a list of bad card ya'll still run" ...those are the kinds of takes that I'm bored of. That's the kind of content I've outgrown. I hope we all have, honestly.
But I WANT to be challenged with someone’s opinions like that - someone telling me why they think certain cards in my list underperform and therefore they wouldn’t Cube them in their own list. And like you mentioned earlier, that’s classic wtwlf over the years in this forum haha. I learned so much from your strong opinions over the years, particularly the ones that said certain cards were bad, and those posts challenged my blind spots and/or made me consider my assumptions more deeply.
The only thing I’d push back on here is the stated “ought” - that we ought to transcend to maturity like you have. If the present wtwlf Cube list is more focused on cool interactions and archetypes rather than maximizing competitive gameplay, then that’s totally cool. It likely fits your maxim of Cube enjoyment from a player community that gets less competitive over the years which is likely happening for a lot of us. But I’d argue it’s just as reasonable to want to maintain a super competitive environment as well, as many of us enjoy that. I’d argue ‘classic wtwlf Cube philosophy’ isn’t necessarily less mature than the more open-minded wtwlf Cube, it’s just different.
I didn't realize this forum was going to go this way - What I was hoping for was for people to respond against cards like Karmic Guide is good because of its combo potential with Revellark, this is something you overlooked or this used to be good, but the format is too fast/ we have better enablers than this.
I feel is missing in the cube forum is discussions about the subpar cards like Deep Analysis, Mirari's Wake, Liliana of the Veil or Land Tax that are in the cube mostly because they been in the cube for so long and 1-2 people in your cube group loves it but you think its time has passed. There aren't really any SCD discussions really talking about them - People kinda just assumed they are staples that are never coming out.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think it is better to question the value of cards in their specific threads. The value of the discussion is much higher thanin a general thread like this.
For example, OP said he think Acidic Slime is not cutting it anymore. To me this is ridiculous as the card is still a very high pick in our cube (high power cube,500ish,competitive Spike players). In a specific thread you can go into details (which archetypes, how much anti-artifact, anti-land does green need,...)
In a thread like this things will either get lost in the discussion or end up with replies like 'Are you crazy! We still run it because it has been stellar for us'. Which helps nobody.
I think Wtwfl came off a bit haughty, even if he ment well. A bit like the old Wtfl did but with a different take We still need brutal card evaluation just as we did before. But Wtfwl has as point that the cube universe has grown tremendiously from when a lot of us 'old timers' started this niche Magic hobby. Back in 2009 or 2012 there were a lot clearer power levels. So working from the assumption that Cube managers want the most powerfull cards and the most powerfull archeytpes (allready we are losing a lot of cubes with these axioms), we could have a lot of good discussions about card X is better then card Y in those days.
Nowadays, things are a lot muddier. People run a lot of different archetypes and packages. The number of cards that are powerfull enough to get into a 'Power cube' has grown tremendiously. We have a 500 cube, but there are at least 250+cards that are good enough to be played at that size. Back in 2010 there were clear power levels: a 360 card, a 450 card, a 650 card, and the hopefull (or insulting) 'I would play that in a 850 cube, maybe' remark.
I for one am still open to discussing cards, but this format is unhelpfull. Before this meta discussion started, I had actually immediately decided to ignore this thread, because there was nothing to be learned here. As others have said on a psychological level this rubs a lot of people the wrong way. And a lot of people will ignore good remarks if you include what they consider staples in your list.'If he is dumb enough not to see hte value of card X, why listen to his reasoning about card A,B or C?'
I didn't realize this forum was going to go this way - What I was hoping for was for people to respond against cards like Karmic Guide is good because of its combo potential with Revellark, this is something you overlooked or this used to be good, but the format is too fast/ we have better enablers than this.
I feel is missing in the cube forum is discussions about the subpar cards like Deep Analysis, Mirari's Wake, Liliana of the Veil or Land Tax that are in the cube mostly because they been in the cube for so long and 1-2 people in your cube group loves it but you think its time has passed. There aren't really any SCD discussions really talking about them - People kinda just assumed they are staples that are never coming out.
This post shows that you don’t quite understand their complaints haha. I think everyone knows this is exactly the purpose of the thread, but it rubs a lot of people the wrong way I think.
EDIT: I'm going to remove using the loaded term "sacred cow". I'm going to open this thread to discuss cards that were considered staples 2-3 years before but are under performing.
I'm going to open with some cards on my list:
Black:
Liliana of the Veil - This is prob the most contentious, but given the number of token generators, haste creatures, draw-7/ card advantage engines, I think the time for Liliana of the Veil has passed. She is a good discard outlet but that is all I feel that is going for her
Heir of Falkenrath
Kitesail Freebooter
Braids, Cabal Minion
Blue:
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Forbid
Faerie Conclave
Morphling
Red:
Fireblast
Firebolt
WildFire
Sulfuric Vortex
Green:
Acidic Slime
Craterhoof Behemoth
Polukranos, World Eater
White:
Karmic Guide
Eternal Dragon
Land Tax
Student of Warfare
Gideon Jura
Colorless:
Mimic Vat
Smokestack
Sword of Light and Shadow - This is just too slow these days IMO. The lifegain + recursion isn't really worth it for me, especially given we have much better recursion engines.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I love Forbid, but also cut that for Force of Negation, which is just the better 3cmc Counterspell.
I don't see those other cards included in many cubes, except maybe Putrid Imp. I think Putrid Imp is a fine inclusion for cubes that don't support black aggro and instead are more all-in on Reanimator like the MTGO Vintage cube.
Here's a Sacred Cow I've been debating with myself recently: Sulfuric Vortex. I remember Vortex and Goblin Guide being the signal that Red Aggro is open. Now, I don't know if it's needed. There's an infinite number of Goblin Rabblemaster variants I could include instead of Vortex, and Rabblemasters are playable in a wider variety of decks. The only thing saving Vortex for me is the anti-lifegain clause.
Few other's I've thought about:
Land Tax I cut this at the end of 2020. Great card to sideboard in on the draw, but inconsistent. I think my UW control decks have enough card draw that they don't need Land Tax and my Wx Aggro decks don't really need Land Tax either.
Smokestack: Another 2020 cut. So much Token creation and card draw in cube now that both players generally are able to play around Smokestack.
Wildfire: I believe I cut this in 2019. Great card against Green decks, but I was finding the Wildfire deck struggled against everything else.
[180 classic cube]
- I actually cut Forbid for Disdainful stroke. I find two mana counters are just too important and pretty much everything I care about, outside of Oko, Recurring Nightmare and Sword of Fire and Ice costs 4 or more.
- Land Tax, Smokestack and WildFire are cards I will admit have lost a lot of value over the year and they are becoming weaker and weaker. I'm reluctant to cut them because they are fun build arounds and give the color something else to do other than aggro/ control etc.
WildFire is almost never going to get the cut for me - it is an important archetype anchor cards and I really don't like the direction of cubes pushing out any card that isn't hyper efficient in aggro, ramp or combo.
Land Tax is something a lot of my friends like. I'm not a fan of it, but I like it more than adding another white Savanna Lions.
Smokestack and Braids are too slow right now. They are too weak and too difficult to make them work. Again, I don't like having to removing yet another archetype.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Happy New Year!
I agree with some cards you mentioned, but not all - however, I want to give my opinion on the matter as a whole.
After the first two years min-maxing my Cube according to what is strongest, strongly relying on the data I got from MTGS and from draft-nights, I realised that there are cards that, while becoming weaker and weaker, I definetly want to play. The cards becoming weaker is due to the increased powerlevel of cards created these days, where every permanent has a spell tacked onto it and has to be a 2 for 1 at least to be worth it.
So I sat down and drew out a "core" of my Cube, consisting of those cards that, almost no matter what, I want to keep having in Cube because I love playing with them. Some examples: Mana Tithe, Flickerwisp, Land Tax, Thing in the Ice, Opposition, Braids, Cabal Minion, Profane Command, Greater Gargadon, Fireblast, Wildfire, Tireless Tracker, Life from the Loam, Smokestack.
I identified these cards and a few more as the fixed stars I want to align my Cube experience to. I want to play those cards, so I will, and if that means not playing all the very strongest cards I don't care. Otherwise I couldn't play my Cube as is since I don't have P9 and similar. Now, if they print a Braids with CMC 3 (which they'll never ever do), I will cut the original Braids for that - it's not about the specific card, but rather about the effect and the archetype the effect opens in the Cube. These cards are not uncuttable, but I will only replace them with cards with similar or the same effects or something I enjoy even more.
I don't want to discourage people using the concept of sacred cows to discuss cards that lost a lot of their power due to the competiton of new cards - but one should not fall prey to the belief that as a Cube curator one is at the mercy of Wizards and the FOMO regarding new pushed cards.
That said your list does hit on several cards that are becoming borderline or no longer good enough for my 450 unpowered list. Faerie Conclave, Meloku, Kitesail Freebooter, and Acidic Slime, and even Wildfire in particular have been on my chopping block. I've also just found that supporting an artifact package in general for a non-powered list like mine is rather difficult as I don't run fast colorless mana like Grim Monolith or the swords. I'm looking forward to more playable equipment, vehicles, and just artifacts in general. I'm even thinking about sidelining Urza for a while until there are more plentiful artifact options for a cube like mine.
Yup. It's 2021 now, and I would've hoped we've all developed a good enough understanding of cube as a format to know how true this is. I'm done with discussions about "sacred cows", "pet cards", or any discussion that claims that cards are "bad".
Play the cards that work for you and your playgroup. There's no right or wrong way to cube, and simply because a card doesn't work for your playgroup doesn't mean it's a "sacred cow" or that the card is "bad" ...at all.
This is a quote from a tweet I sent out earlier this month:
I'm honestly kinda bored with philosophies that differ from this maxim.
If you and your playgroup have fun supporting specific decks and strategies, go for it. If you and your playgroup have fun using specific cards, and those cards are contributing to achieving your cube goals and still convert into success at the table, they're good cards.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I definitely agree with this statement.
My cube group is unique in the sense that we have a large MTG community where 20+ people often draft between 2-3 cubes in my group. I also have 2 friends outside this group that own cubes. We don't have set draft days, set number of people to cube and we don't read each other's cube updates that closely. In addition, a lot of the cube drafters are relatively new cubers.
In order for these cube experiences to be fun in this type environment, I find I should adhere to these rules:
- The cube should have a metagame similar to the MTGO cube/ similar vintage cubes.
- Cube curators need to ensure all the cards outside of the power 9/ 50 strongest cards are of relative power level
- There aren't trap archetypes + build around cards should reward players.
- Narrow cards that are only good in 1-2 decks (such as Meloku or Sulfuric Vortex) should perform exceptionally well in those decks
For example, Sulfuric Vortex should remain a relatively strong burn card + wheeling Vortex should indicate that RDW is open. However, I'm more or less noticing this is not the case - The speed of combo decks + control/ midrange decks having more answers to Sulfuric Vortex is making it worse and worse.
Similarly, Meloku the Clouded Mirror/ Eternal Dragon used to be excellent control finishers but they have recently significantly under performed.
If WildFire is in the cube, then the WildFire deck should do relatively well. I had a new friend that read my Vintage Cube Card intro guide and drafted a pretty good WildFire/ Loam deck, but went 0-3 not really because he wasn't a great player but because WildFire just wasn't that great in the meta.
This is why cutting sacred cows is pretty important to my cube - I try to stay relatively in the norm to avoid misleading people.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Everyone here has essentially done that for years across every card discussion thread. Even though our Cubes are unique, we’ve all learned from one another’s perspectives. I could list 10+ regular Cubers here whose lists I’ve studied for many hours on end to improve my Cube experience, and I never 100% agree with their card assessments, but by combining perspectives I’m able to build a list that is way more fun than a list created from my insular experiences.
I’ll post more thoughts on specific sacred cow card choices later, but in general I do agree with some cards listed here and disagree with others, of course.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
You don't have a list of sacred cows in the OP, you have a list of good cube cards that happened to not work out for your playgroup for one reason or another. And that's fine. There are a lot of cube cards other groups love that I don't like for my own cube. But that doesn't make them "bad". It also doesn't make them "sacred cows" or "pet cards" either. It simply means that my environment (based on playgroup, objectives, or some other metric) wasn't ideally suited for those cards.
Popular cube cards that struggle to perform in your playgroup are simply that. I don't run any of the cards listed in this thread because they're uncuttable "sacred cows". I don't have any uncuttable cards in my cube. All those cards are included because they still contribute to game wins and assist in accomplishing my cube's goals. Just because they don't work for you doesn't mean they're bad (or "sacred cows" or any other clickbaity term you want to use to start the discussion off on the wrong foot).
I don't know, I'm just tired of the lack of constructive discourse in the community, and all labels like "sacred cow" and "pet card" do is make those issues worse. I've become bored with "these cards are bad, don't play them" kinds of takes. I'm far more interested in what unpopular cards people have successes with than popular ones they're arbitrarily trying to dethrone. Sell people on the merits of inclusion, and leave cuts to their playgroup. It took me a long time and a lot of personal growth and evolution to get to this mindset. Hell, I built a reputation on providing cutthroat analysis. But over the years, cube has changed, and I think it's been time to err on the side of positivity for a long time now. Just my $0.02 I guess.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I see some “sacred cows” that I feel are obviously good Cube cards for obvious reasons, but I like hearing that someone thinks that X “staple” Cube card is not good anymore because it helps me consider the card from a fresh perspective. If I immediately write off 9 out of 10 sacred cow hot takes but the discussion causes me to ponder on one, it’s still a fruitful thread for me to read.
In this thread I think one example is Forbid - I like it a lot, but I do want to remain aware of this card’s future performance as we have added a lot of efficient blue card support that in theory makes Forbid clunkier than it used to be in our list.
"You don't have a list of sacred cows in the OP, you have a list of good cube cards that happened to not work out for your playgroup for one reason or another. And that's fine. There are a lot of cube cards other groups love that I don't like for my own cube. But that doesn't make them "bad". It also doesn't make them "sacred cows" or "pet cards" either. It simply means that my environment (based on playgroup, objectives, or some other metric) wasn't ideally suited for those cards. "
You are right ... I have misused the term. I'll correct the forum opening thread with a card list without my reasonings and I'll add cards being discussed in this forum instead. This is probably not the best way to open a forum.
I've watched enough cube videos where cube curators would propose cuts followed by their reasoning. This was how I envisioned this forum start off, but it didn't turn out that way ..
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
You could keep the whole opening post including your individual card evaluations and just ditch the Sacred Cow terminology and any references to your opinions on these cards being de facto evidence that these cards are outdated broadly speaking and it would be fine. You can influence people to examine their own design choices just by sharing your own experience with the cards and letting that stand on its own.
There’s a Cube YouTube channel (forgot the name) that did a sacred cow video I disagreed with entirely, but it was interesting content to listen to and at minimum helped me consider possible blind spots.
Sure. That sounds like the best approach. Sacred Cow is prob too much of a loaded term.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I think the point of the forum is to generate meaningful discussion about the format. And there are better and less clickbaity ways to do this in 2021 than creating threads whose sole purpose is to say "look at all these cards ya'll run that are actually bad (aka their time has passed)".
If this is the kind of discussion you guys are looking for, cool. It's just not my cup of tea anymore. I've outgrown it (and have for some time now) and am personally pretty bored with these kinds of takes.
Excite me with information about what underutilized cards are great. Sell me on exploring new ideas. But telling people that cards have "passed their time" simply because they don't work for your playgroup is a tired, toxic take. Doing so with charged labels like "pet card" and "sacred cow" is just dialing an already bad take up to 11. It assumes that people are only running cards because they don't know any better, and it's insulting to insinuate that about cube managers simply because they disagree with your take. That's the hubris that BlackWaltz is talking about.
I just thought we were beyond this kind of discussion at this point, but I guess not. Enjoy the thread ya'll, I'm going to move onto more constructive content.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm not against someone sharing opinions about cards based on their own experiences - popular or otherwise. I'm against positing your individual experiences/observations as evidence that particular cards are outdated and others choices to continue to run them might be because they haven't caught on like you have (Statements such as "I think it’s fair to presuppose that we are a community that is slow to change" are representative of this mindset). The issue here isn't with sharing one's opinions about cards, it is the framework by which one does so. I already provided recommendations in my previous post on how someone can share their thoughts on cards without adopting this framework.
But yeah totally cool to not engage obviously. I was unaware that this type of discussion could be viewed as toxic, but I respect the perspective of it’s not enjoyable for some.
I haven't cubed in forever due to the pandemic and not playing online but yeah, obviously participation is voluntary But I'm not sure comments like 'this bores me, I've totally outgrow this type of discussion' is "totally cool" lmao.
Oh man, me too but to the Nth degree. I built a reputation on being an uncompromising critic of cube cards. But I (just like the format) have evolved over the years, and have tried to approach both design and content creation with a more positive, inclusive attitude. Cube is simply too broad a community and there's so much variety in cube goals and objectives that "Card X is bad/outdated in cube" is just not an applicable take anymore. But again, this is just my $0.02 and there are some folks that really do enjoy this kind of content. By all means, keep at it if it interests you. It's just not for me.
Cheers, and happy cubing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Ya, maybe I should've just elected not to engage. I was hoping to encourage more positive discussion, which in turn would generate more interest, but maybe I'm not helping.
Ya, you're right. It's probably not.
If it's genuinely being done as a tool to help people identify potentially cuttable cards they might be overlooking, there's a constructive way to do it and it can be valuable. The way it was originally presented (before the edits) was more along the lines of "here's a list of bad card ya'll still run" ...those are the kinds of takes that I'm bored of. That's the kind of content I've outgrown. I hope we all have, honestly.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The only thing I’d push back on here is the stated “ought” - that we ought to transcend to maturity like you have. If the present wtwlf Cube list is more focused on cool interactions and archetypes rather than maximizing competitive gameplay, then that’s totally cool. It likely fits your maxim of Cube enjoyment from a player community that gets less competitive over the years which is likely happening for a lot of us. But I’d argue it’s just as reasonable to want to maintain a super competitive environment as well, as many of us enjoy that. I’d argue ‘classic wtwlf Cube philosophy’ isn’t necessarily less mature than the more open-minded wtwlf Cube, it’s just different.
I feel is missing in the cube forum is discussions about the subpar cards like Deep Analysis, Mirari's Wake, Liliana of the Veil or Land Tax that are in the cube mostly because they been in the cube for so long and 1-2 people in your cube group loves it but you think its time has passed. There aren't really any SCD discussions really talking about them - People kinda just assumed they are staples that are never coming out.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
For example, OP said he think Acidic Slime is not cutting it anymore. To me this is ridiculous as the card is still a very high pick in our cube (high power cube,500ish,competitive Spike players). In a specific thread you can go into details (which archetypes, how much anti-artifact, anti-land does green need,...)
In a thread like this things will either get lost in the discussion or end up with replies like 'Are you crazy! We still run it because it has been stellar for us'. Which helps nobody.
I think Wtwfl came off a bit haughty, even if he ment well. A bit like the old Wtfl did but with a different take We still need brutal card evaluation just as we did before. But Wtfwl has as point that the cube universe has grown tremendiously from when a lot of us 'old timers' started this niche Magic hobby. Back in 2009 or 2012 there were a lot clearer power levels. So working from the assumption that Cube managers want the most powerfull cards and the most powerfull archeytpes (allready we are losing a lot of cubes with these axioms), we could have a lot of good discussions about card X is better then card Y in those days.
Nowadays, things are a lot muddier. People run a lot of different archetypes and packages. The number of cards that are powerfull enough to get into a 'Power cube' has grown tremendiously. We have a 500 cube, but there are at least 250+cards that are good enough to be played at that size. Back in 2010 there were clear power levels: a 360 card, a 450 card, a 650 card, and the hopefull (or insulting) 'I would play that in a 850 cube, maybe' remark.
I for one am still open to discussing cards, but this format is unhelpfull. Before this meta discussion started, I had actually immediately decided to ignore this thread, because there was nothing to be learned here. As others have said on a psychological level this rubs a lot of people the wrong way. And a lot of people will ignore good remarks if you include what they consider staples in your list.'If he is dumb enough not to see hte value of card X, why listen to his reasoning about card A,B or C?'
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
This post shows that you don’t quite understand their complaints haha. I think everyone knows this is exactly the purpose of the thread, but it rubs a lot of people the wrong way I think.