Hot take alert! Our group feels that OG Elspeth is getting quickly outdated. She’s still in our Cube primarily because of the Humility archetype we’re pushing, but I’d include both this enchantment and Emeria’s Call as generically good cards over OG Elspeth.
Elspeth is still a top tier white card in my experience. More planeswalkers for Elspeth to take out has only increased her importance.
In the 3-0 archives, she's tied as the #4 most represented non-land card from September 2019 - September 2020 on our cube discord. The numbers would probably be higher if the MTGO Vintage Cube didn't swap out Knight-Errant for Sun's Nemesis for a brief period of time.
Fair! But Court of Grace seems excellent. Garruk Wildspeaker is worse against planeswalkers than Garruk, Unleashed, but I think the context for choosing between the two is how the color identity commonly plays out in your pool. I think if White is a midrange to control color, it's worth trying Court over Elspeth, while Elspeth is going to shine if your white cards are more oriented towards early board creature presence. I think another card I've seen a lot that could be replaced with Court for testing is Parallax Wave. It's a very cool and fun card, and it's good, but I think Court is a game winning bomb for midrange decks.
Elspeth Knight Errant not anywhere close to cuttable in my experience. Elspeth is top 5 white card in my list only behind swords, path, journey to nowhere, and thalia, heretic cathar in terms of maindeck and winrate. Top 50 card in the entire 360 cube list.
This card is good but surely you have some weaker white fours to cut. Patrunkenphat7 why not cut something like archon of sun's grace which seems pretty rough? or even quarantine field? 4 mana o-ring seems terribly slow for your list even if you are pushing an enchantments theme.
Elspeth Knight Errant not anywhere close to cuttable in my experience. Elspeth is top 5 white card in my list only behind swords, path, journey to nowhere, and thalia, heretic cathar in terms of maindeck and winrate. Top 50 card in the entire 360 cube list.
This card is good but surely you have some weaker white fours to cut. Patrunkenphat7 why not cut something like archon of sun's grace which seems pretty rough? or even quarantine field? 4 mana o-ring seems terribly slow for your list even if you are pushing an enchantments theme.
I’m playing Court, and I didn’t cut OG Elspeth, but I am way lower on her than most. Archon has been solid for us so far and takes the Gisela slot. Quarantine Field is also one of the best O-Rings and consistently hits multiple permanents. Surprised to hear that Journey to Nowhere is a top card for you.
Limited testing, but it had a good first showing in a 3-0 mono white deck. Copy / pasting the pilot's summary
White court was absurd
It just blew games at parity out of the water
And closed the door when I was ahead
It put my opponents in a big bind where they wanted to be blocking bc I was aggressive, but they also had to attack bc monarch
And then I could just kill them when they let their defenses down by overextending on a monarch attack
All of the Monarch enchantments performed worse than expected for us.
Are monarch enablers even in white too win-more?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
540 Powered Cube here. We've been having success with this. Its a great card to play after a balance or other board wipe. Refilling the hand with extra card draw while you make 4/4 fliers has been the default mode of the card when cast. It DOES feel absurd when it works, and steve_man's quote from above is inline with how its played out for us.
While I am sure there have been less visible times where it has languished in the hand because it is not great when behind on board presence, it has been a powerful way for non-blue white decks to break through the duldrums of a stalled board or seal a game while they are ahead.I also like that it helps diversify the threats in white a bit by being an enchantment instead of a planeswalker, which at this point is almost harder to remove anyway.
We will keep an eye on just how often it performs vs languishes but at least so far for us we have found it to be a pretty good cube card. We've found that what it provides to white (outlined above) has outweighed its weakness when behind enough to be included in our cube.
For what its worth this is the only of these monarch enchantments we found good enough to run for us.
I like to ask the people who feel this card underperformed - what was the reason?
(This is based off my theory - I'm asking):
I could understand monarch in other colors underperformed because it is more difficult from them to defend it, but for white decks that seeks to get ahead and stay ahead, why would this be a weak card?
If its bad, doesn't it mean the white deck is going to lose the game anyways? Comparing this to white's best 4 drop - Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, its not like if the white deck is behind against a consecrated sphinx, Gideon wouldn't fair much better.
Is the reason that its significantly worse that Palace Jailer?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
For us, when the card was good it was hard to imagine losing those games often even without the card, but you often couldn’t play it in spots where other white cards like planeswalkers establish board presence. It felt like you had to be too far ahead in order to cast it in most matchups.
For us, when the card was good it was hard to imagine losing those games often even without the card, but you often couldn’t play it in spots where other white cards like planeswalkers establish board presence. It felt like you had to be too far ahead in order to cast it in most matchups.
That makes sense.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
How do folks rate this versus Serra the Benevolent? Serra was good for us, but we made the swap to CoG. We haven't had the change to cube much since the change.
How do folks rate this versus Serra the Benevolent? Serra was good for us, but we made the swap to CoG. We haven't had the change to cube much since the change.
Serra is pretty bad IMO. Its pretty much a glorified 4 mana for a 5/5 flying.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
We actually like Serra a lot and kept her over this court. She’s more than a single angel creature because she threatens to make more quickly. Sort of like a delayed 4-mana broodmate dragon plus benefits with other flyers.
This card is getting harder to evaluate. We’ve seen it do very little for 4 mana and hand the opponent free cards, where Serra would’ve stonewalled the opposition with a 4/4. Surprisingly, the bitterblossom effect didn’t really do as much as I expected in my head.
But I’ve also seen players run away with the game once they make that first 4/4 flyer, and have drawn 2 cards by the end of that turn.
I personally enjoy monarch at my power level and added Emberwilde Captain, and I always want more token generator for stax, so it’ll stay for a bit.
Does anyone else have firsthand experiences that sway their original thoughts?
Does anyone else have firsthand experiences that sway their original thoughts?
Court of Grace has been fairly popular and is the only court that met my expectations, the others weren't so hot. Even if you lose monarch for a turn or two, the Bitterblossom mode can still come through and eventually secure monarch and take over the game.
The problem is again - if this is added, which card do we cut?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
The problem is again - if this is added, which card do we cut?
Broodmoth is easy cut unless you agressively supporting infinite combo.
I've always been a fan of running armageddon and not ravages, but it's just a personal preference. Not power level motivated.
It's also ok to have a lot of white 4's. They are optimized in different shells and in general better than most of the white 5's... but yeah, you are right, the strong competition definitely lowers the stock of this card. Question isn't if the card is good, it's is it good enough to deserve a slot.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Elspeth is still a top tier white card in my experience. More planeswalkers for Elspeth to take out has only increased her importance.
In the 3-0 archives, she's tied as the #4 most represented non-land card from September 2019 - September 2020 on our cube discord. The numbers would probably be higher if the MTGO Vintage Cube didn't swap out Knight-Errant for Sun's Nemesis for a brief period of time.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
This card is good but surely you have some weaker white fours to cut. Patrunkenphat7 why not cut something like archon of sun's grace which seems pretty rough? or even quarantine field? 4 mana o-ring seems terribly slow for your list even if you are pushing an enchantments theme.
I’m playing Court, and I didn’t cut OG Elspeth, but I am way lower on her than most. Archon has been solid for us so far and takes the Gisela slot. Quarantine Field is also one of the best O-Rings and consistently hits multiple permanents. Surprised to hear that Journey to Nowhere is a top card for you.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Are monarch enablers even in white too win-more?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
While I am sure there have been less visible times where it has languished in the hand because it is not great when behind on board presence, it has been a powerful way for non-blue white decks to break through the duldrums of a stalled board or seal a game while they are ahead.I also like that it helps diversify the threats in white a bit by being an enchantment instead of a planeswalker, which at this point is almost harder to remove anyway.
We will keep an eye on just how often it performs vs languishes but at least so far for us we have found it to be a pretty good cube card. We've found that what it provides to white (outlined above) has outweighed its weakness when behind enough to be included in our cube.
For what its worth this is the only of these monarch enchantments we found good enough to run for us.
My 36+ Commander Decks: TAPPEDOUT
(This is based off my theory - I'm asking):
I could understand monarch in other colors underperformed because it is more difficult from them to defend it, but for white decks that seeks to get ahead and stay ahead, why would this be a weak card?
If its bad, doesn't it mean the white deck is going to lose the game anyways? Comparing this to white's best 4 drop - Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, its not like if the white deck is behind against a consecrated sphinx, Gideon wouldn't fair much better.
Is the reason that its significantly worse that Palace Jailer?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
That makes sense.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Serra is pretty bad IMO. Its pretty much a glorified 4 mana for a 5/5 flying.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Ajani, Strength of the Pride are miles better. (Ajani doesn't need a lifegain package to be good - he's actually good by himself)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
But I’ve also seen players run away with the game once they make that first 4/4 flyer, and have drawn 2 cards by the end of that turn.
I personally enjoy monarch at my power level and added Emberwilde Captain, and I always want more token generator for stax, so it’ll stay for a bit.
Does anyone else have firsthand experiences that sway their original thoughts?
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
Court of Grace has been fairly popular and is the only court that met my expectations, the others weren't so hot. Even if you lose monarch for a turn or two, the Bitterblossom mode can still come through and eventually secure monarch and take over the game.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
- Palace Jailer
- Restoration Angel
- Hero of Bladehold
- Ravages of War
- Armageddon
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
- Parallax Wave
- Luminous Broodmoth
The problem is again - if this is added, which card do we cut?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Broodmoth is easy cut unless you agressively supporting infinite combo.
I've always been a fan of running armageddon and not ravages, but it's just a personal preference. Not power level motivated.
It's also ok to have a lot of white 4's. They are optimized in different shells and in general better than most of the white 5's... but yeah, you are right, the strong competition definitely lowers the stock of this card. Question isn't if the card is good, it's is it good enough to deserve a slot.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I haven't been a huge fan of most of the white 5 drops. In particular:
- Gideon Jura
- Angel of Invention
My 5 CMC might end up with just:
- Archangel of Thune
- Reveillark
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Luminous Broodmoth unless it's there for particular combos / aristocrats support, otherwise Hero of Bladehold.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I wouldn't cut any of those for Court. But if you had to, maybe Wave or Broodmoth, unless you use them for combo decks.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!