So I either ... cut monocolored cards for hybrids to preserve gold slots (which reduces overall playability)
Would you mind unpacking that for me? If the hybrid is a strict upgrade on a preexisting monocolored card like this one is, wouldn't that increase the amount of decks that can play the card without penalty and thus increase the overall playability of the cube?
Not as much as it would if you removed a gold card for it instead.
If the goal is to preserve gold slots (like someone said above) then yes. That option decreases playability in comparison to options that remove gold cards in favor of playing more mono-colored cards and hybrid cards.
So I either: A) cut monocolored cards for hybrids to preserve gold slots (which reduces overall playability), B) try to build a "balanced" hybrid section (which either forces in bad cards or excludes good ones), or C) I classify them in their guilds and get to remove narrower gold cards to make room for more playable hybrid cards. I choose C because I think it's the clear winner of all the options.
The discussion on this card is really less of a discussion on Nature's Chant and more of a discussion of the future of hybrid.
I disagree with your reasoning on C.
I disagree that a cube would be better if (in a perfect universe) we ran only hybrid cards and no traditional multicolored gold spells. It's like saying that cube would be better if instead of having colored mana everything was colorless. Gold cards give players a reward for going down into multiple colors and allow us to have more powerful spells at their CMC. This is a net benefit to the diversity of the game.
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Cool, so you're arguing that both options increase the playability of the cube, but one option increases it more than the other. Makes sense!
I was just confused because it sounded like you were arguing that not placing it in a gold slot somehow reduced the playability of the cube in an absolute, rather than relative, sense. Thanks for the clarification!
Cool, so you're arguing that both options increase the playability of the cube, but one option increases it more than the other. Makes sense!
I was just confused because it sounded like you were arguing that not placing it in a gold slot somehow reduced the playability of the cube in an absolute, rather than relative, sense. Thanks for the clarification!
No worries. Both options are better than excluding a strictly better hybrid card, but I prefer the latter. I want to err on the side of more playability whenever possible.
So I either: A) cut monocolored cards for hybrids to preserve gold slots (which reduces overall playability), B) try to build a "balanced" hybrid section (which either forces in bad cards or excludes good ones), or C) I classify them in their guilds and get to remove narrower gold cards to make room for more playable hybrid cards. I choose C because I think it's the clear winner of all the options.
The discussion on this card is really less of a discussion on Nature's Chant and more of a discussion of the future of hybrid.
I disagree with your reasoning on C.
I disagree that a cube would be better if (in a perfect universe) we ran only hybrid cards and no traditional multicolored gold spells. It's like saying that cube would be better if instead of having colored mana everything was colorless. Gold cards give players a reward for going down into multiple colors and allow us to have more powerful spells at their CMC. This is a net benefit to the diversity of the game.
Luckily that would only ever occur in theory. There will always be gold cards good enough to justify using that will reward drafters for being multicolor. But there are plenty of ways to incentivize players to draft color combinations without gold, and if I can effectively do that while also increasing overall cube playability, I'll go with that option.
Yeah, it's interesting academically at least. I don't disagree with wtwlf's logic at all, but there's a non-zero chance that in 40 years (assuming global warming hasn't killed us) we'll have ten different Rakdos Cacklers / Dryad Militants knocking around. I don't think you could apply wtwlf's thinking to the guild sections of small cubes at that point. Wouldn't you have to count them as 1/2 color?
When there are so many good hybrid cards that the number of "strictly-better-than-mono" options is bigger than the guild section, yes. You'd either increase the size of the guild section or you'd make up a new section. But since I'm like 100 years away from that being a reality, I'm not going to worry about it now.
I think this card is an obvious include. It's strictly better than Disenchant, which is already a cube stable. But to be honest, I don't like how this card makes me feel when it comes to evaluation.
My chopping block for Selesnya is Knight of the Reliquary, which is a fine cut for this card, but I don't know that I want this and Knight of Autumn and Disenchant. Do I cut Disenchant for something else? Ugh. The thought of cutting Disenchant makes me want to puke.
This card means that I'm likely cutting Fragmentize and Nature's Claim during this huge set update. I know that means one fewer card with that effect, but hey, fight over this card if you really need it. I love what this hybrid Disatrulize does to the draft.
Btw it's interesting to see that people value Disenchant way above Naturalize... I guess that's because of the green creatures that destroy those cards, but white also has a lot of flex answers to artifacts and enchantments.
I’m the one for advocating for the preservation of gold cards because I like to have my gold sections function as kind of “archetype signposts” that can lead newer players into two color archetypes, kind of like how Wizards prints archetype uncommons in new standard sets. For example in Azorious I run Teferi HoD for control and Geist for tempo. A lot of the guys in my playgroup are somewhat newer players who aren’t familiar with all the cards in my cube and find multicolor cards helpful in draft.
Also, I just really like cool splashy gold card effects Cutting a Ajani, Unyielding for this slightly better Disenchant may streamline my guild section, but then I’d lose a fun and unique midrange curve topper.
I think those that want to maximiZe the overall playability of cube cards have a legit point though. To each their own and more power too you.
Hope I didn’t derail the conversation. Card’s sweet.
Just the idea that a (common) card so simple is causing such a ruckus in this community really shines a light on cube design in general. There are so many unique decisions now. I worried that with different sets of varying power level, cube environments would stagnate more and more to monolithic lists. In fact, it seems the opposite, like this set specifically has made people challenge their cubes. “Do I throw in green aggro with Hexdrinker?”, “what the hell is the future of hybrid?”, “what does my 4th/5th land slot look like?”, “is Urza the tipping point to include atifact.dec?”, “what archetypes need support and which don’t?”. I love the discussion here on this simple card and I don’t think I’ve felt this excited about a set for cube in a long time.
Fantastic card but I'm not sure I'm going to run it. There isn't anything in Selesnya I want to cut for it. I guess i could cut Dryad Militant since was are getting a sick aggro 1-drop in green. So many tough decisions with this set.
I actually ran sundering growth for a while as a replacement for disenechant until I got a beta. Since then I have moved to a slushy hybrid section that is somewhat balanced on all the colors and I include 5 color lands in it. WTWLF123 is not wrong, but I choose to build the gold section of my cube exactly as big as I think my cube can handle. (I am at 4 per guild at 450 or 3 at 360). My rainbow section is just as big as I think there are good enough hybrid cards or 5 color lands. When rainbow grows I subtract for the mono colors. All the cards I currently run get heavily played and if not they are gone, adding this section has been really popular and increased the flexibility.
As far as the card itself I think it is great that it has come along. Naturalize has been cut from green and disenchant can go as well. White gets lots of flexible removal. Nature's chant still gives the cube access to the effect and the people that want it can get it, but it too might go because my group is shy on these effects.
We play bo1 normally but also have a bunch of nutty unserious cards including artifacts so artifact removal is still in high demand. However, I don't think color flexibility outweighs casting cost for us (or reusability a la Ancient Grudge)
Yeah I've never quite understood classifying hybrid cards as guild cards. Sure, there might not be a critical mass of cubeable hybrid cards to build-out a section for them, but one day there will be. Hybrid cards work on a completely different axis- they have effects that two colors both share and could do on their own- multicolored cards often do something, or two things together, that each of the colors can't do alone. So it doesn't make sense (to me) to have kitchen finks and voice of resurgence contending for the last spot in your green white section- one card is green white, the other is green OR white.
Personally, I DO add organize split cards with the corresponding guild section, but I count them as a different thing, and try to account for their flexibility in different ways. I've never felt that cutting real multicolored cards for split cards in the name of simplified classification and organization is the right thing to do.
It's not about simplifying organization. It's about maximizing card playability.
And guild ≠ gold. I don't have a gold section, I have a guild section. It represents all cards that are intrinsically ideal for a specific combination of colors. And while hybrid cards are either/or, they're still easier to cast in a deck with access to both colors of mana (Kitchen Finks is far easier to cast in a deck than a deck, for example). I classify all cards where they're intrinsically best, so there's no conflict whatsoever with classifying them in the guild section. But most importantly, every time you cut a gold card for a hybrid card, an angel gets its wings. It's almost the largest increase in overall cube playability you can make with a single change. Some day in the distant future it might make more sense to run a dedicated hybrid section, but it won't be to justify running more gold cards, because that's just a step backwards, IMO. I explained on the last page why hybrids in the guild section makes the most sense for my playgroup at the moment. Everyone has their own way of classifying cards, but none of the other options resulted in a net playability positive the way a true open guild section does.
There will always be great gold cards that are good enough to justify their narrowness. And some of them are so good that it's worth their limited playability. But if I have a chance to remove a card that's super narrow and replace it with a card that's also great but more flexible, I'm gonna take it. I don't want to cut great gold cards for bad hybrid cards, but I'm excited to remove medium-tier gold cards for hybrids that will see a ton of play. Sign me up all day for that, and twice on Sundays.
All the discussion of this card makes me want to see a Disenchant that's been upgraded like Return to Nature (e.g. destroy target artifact or enchantment, OR do some other relevant thing). Not sure quite what that would look like... Return to Nature already took exiling something from the yard. Some number of lifegain might do it, or maybe a Mana Tithe effect.
It's not about simplifying organization. It's about maximizing card playability.
There is no universe where playing Tattermunge Maniac over Kird Ape increases "overall cube playability" except as empty phrase-mongering -- in a technical sense, more decks can play the Maniac. Oh wow!
There is no universe where playing Tattermunge Maniac over Kird Ape increases "overall cube playability" except as empty phrase-mongering -- in a technical sense, more decks can play the Maniac. Oh wow!
Maybe not overall cube playability, but definitely card playability. Maniac can go in a deck that doesn't produce red. Ape can't. You may argue that that's not a big deal, and I would probably agree with you, but others have different goals.
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Maybe not overall cube playability, but definitely card playability. Maniac can go in a deck that doesn't produce red. Ape can't. You may argue that that's not a big deal, and I would probably agree with you, but others have different goals.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
It's not about simplifying organization. It's about maximizing card playability.
There is no universe where playing Tattermunge Maniac over Kird Ape increases "overall cube playability" except as empty phrase-mongering -- in a technical sense, more decks can play the Maniac. Oh wow!
It's pretty rare that someone argues against a design concept and proves the value of said design concept in the same thought. But thanks!
Based on his other comments I'm assuming that he's saying that Maniac is a bad card and that increasing the number of decks that can play a bad card does not make a Cube better.
Yes, I'm sure that's what he's saying. And he already knows I disagree. He just brought it up to fight. Notice how he used the Maniac in his example instead of Nature's Chant? Does he want to make the same argument that cutting a gold card for Nature's Chant decreases playability? No. because he knows I'm right. If he wants to argue against Manic, go ahead. And take it to the Maniac thread. The example proves nothing in regards to card categorization or increasing cube playability by removing a gold card for Nature's Chant, which is what we're discussing here.
Not as much as it would if you removed a gold card for it instead.
If the goal is to preserve gold slots (like someone said above) then yes. That option decreases playability in comparison to options that remove gold cards in favor of playing more mono-colored cards and hybrid cards.
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The discussion on this card is really less of a discussion on Nature's Chant and more of a discussion of the future of hybrid.
I disagree with your reasoning on C.
I disagree that a cube would be better if (in a perfect universe) we ran only hybrid cards and no traditional multicolored gold spells. It's like saying that cube would be better if instead of having colored mana everything was colorless. Gold cards give players a reward for going down into multiple colors and allow us to have more powerful spells at their CMC. This is a net benefit to the diversity of the game.
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I was just confused because it sounded like you were arguing that not placing it in a gold slot somehow reduced the playability of the cube in an absolute, rather than relative, sense. Thanks for the clarification!
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No worries. Both options are better than excluding a strictly better hybrid card, but I prefer the latter. I want to err on the side of more playability whenever possible.
Luckily that would only ever occur in theory. There will always be gold cards good enough to justify using that will reward drafters for being multicolor. But there are plenty of ways to incentivize players to draft color combinations without gold, and if I can effectively do that while also increasing overall cube playability, I'll go with that option.
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My chopping block for Selesnya is Knight of the Reliquary, which is a fine cut for this card, but I don't know that I want this and Knight of Autumn and Disenchant. Do I cut Disenchant for something else? Ugh. The thought of cutting Disenchant makes me want to puke.
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Btw it's interesting to see that people value Disenchant way above Naturalize... I guess that's because of the green creatures that destroy those cards, but white also has a lot of flex answers to artifacts and enchantments.
Also, I just really like cool splashy gold card effects Cutting a Ajani, Unyielding for this slightly better Disenchant may streamline my guild section, but then I’d lose a fun and unique midrange curve topper.
I think those that want to maximiZe the overall playability of cube cards have a legit point though. To each their own and more power too you.
Hope I didn’t derail the conversation. Card’s sweet.
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As far as the card itself I think it is great that it has come along. Naturalize has been cut from green and disenchant can go as well. White gets lots of flexible removal. Nature's chant still gives the cube access to the effect and the people that want it can get it, but it too might go because my group is shy on these effects.
The other options in white just don’t do it for me.
This is more than good enough and a slam dunk for my goals.
I will run this along side of disenchant instead of replacing it.
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Personally, I DO add organize split cards with the corresponding guild section, but I count them as a different thing, and try to account for their flexibility in different ways. I've never felt that cutting real multicolored cards for split cards in the name of simplified classification and organization is the right thing to do.
And guild ≠ gold. I don't have a gold section, I have a guild section. It represents all cards that are intrinsically ideal for a specific combination of colors. And while hybrid cards are either/or, they're still easier to cast in a deck with access to both colors of mana (Kitchen Finks is far easier to cast in a deck than a deck, for example). I classify all cards where they're intrinsically best, so there's no conflict whatsoever with classifying them in the guild section. But most importantly, every time you cut a gold card for a hybrid card, an angel gets its wings. It's almost the largest increase in overall cube playability you can make with a single change. Some day in the distant future it might make more sense to run a dedicated hybrid section, but it won't be to justify running more gold cards, because that's just a step backwards, IMO. I explained on the last page why hybrids in the guild section makes the most sense for my playgroup at the moment. Everyone has their own way of classifying cards, but none of the other options resulted in a net playability positive the way a true open guild section does.
There will always be great gold cards that are good enough to justify their narrowness. And some of them are so good that it's worth their limited playability. But if I have a chance to remove a card that's super narrow and replace it with a card that's also great but more flexible, I'm gonna take it. I don't want to cut great gold cards for bad hybrid cards, but I'm excited to remove medium-tier gold cards for hybrids that will see a ton of play. Sign me up all day for that, and twice on Sundays.
Anyways, all the best. Cheers, and happy cubing!
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There is no universe where playing Tattermunge Maniac over Kird Ape increases "overall cube playability" except as empty phrase-mongering -- in a technical sense, more decks can play the Maniac. Oh wow!
Well... isn't that exactly the point?
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It's pretty rare that someone argues against a design concept and proves the value of said design concept in the same thought. But thanks!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!