Kind of a neat card. 3 mana to dig 4 for a noncreature / nonland card as a floor really isn't to bad. You would still be left with 4 loyalty so there is a chance it can stick around for 1 more turn. Not sure how the math works in terms of % chance of missing. In that regard Jace Beleren is probably better than this. Jace often dies really easy though since down ticking him puts him to 2 loyalty, and upticking often feels bad to give your opponenet an extra draw which doesn't help you pull ahead.
About 10% of my cube has some sort of draw effect attached to it, and while this may not have an interaction with all of them, I think at least 1/2 it probably does if not more.
Some of the interactions can become really strong, such as combos with the draw 7 effects in cube timetwister, but it also makes cards better in your own deck like
My first impression was this card was it would only be good in control mirrors by shutting down Draw spells of an opponent. It might shine a little more in that matchup, but it can also slow down or severely limit the impact of many spells an opponent could be running in a lot of other archetypes. While not exhaustive, just a look through my cube I found the following non monoblue cards that it would have a good chance of having an impact on.
While this does not interact with a large number of cards, drawing extra cards is one of the strongest things you can do to help win a game of magic, and slowing your opponent down in doing that can have a large impact on the game. Also turning your opponents Brainstorm into a Draw 1 put 2 cards back on top of their library is pretty funny.
Not sure if this get's there or not, the consistency of Jace Beleren is probably more important than this, But I do like the effect that Narset can have on games, and I think it is defiantly worth considering in multiplayer cubes
Not sure how the math works out, But digging 4 is really deep. I am sure someone better at math can do a better job than I can, but this is the result I got
Looking at a Geometric Calculator if my inputs are correct. https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/kmliu/mtg_calculator.html
30 Cards in a deck (you already drew 7 to start the game + 3 draws from turns)
Number of Hit's left in the deck: I assumed 6, but to each deck is obviously different. 32% chance of missing.
If you assume you have 17 lands that leaves 22 spots open. 1 of which is Nar set = 22 spots open. If 1/2 of your remaining spots are noncreators, on average you will have drawn 4 or 5 lands by turn 3. 2 or 3 creatures, and 2 or 3 spells so it's probably pretty likely you will have 6 or 7 spells left at least in your deck that you can hit. This feels like a heavy blue creature deck to me as well.
this can hit noncreator artifacts, enchantments, instants, and Sorceries. In my cube that represents over 1/2 the cards you draft.
You are probably right it might be to narrow of an effect, but only the static portion. The drawing portion I think actually get's there if I have done the math mostly right.
I don't think she's for every cube, but I imagine she'll have a sticking place in the MTGO vintage cube. Leovold, Emissary of Trest + Draw7s was a good archetype in the last iteration of that cube, and I imagine Narset could be good redundancy. Misses on the "protect your stuff from targeting" that Leovold has, but also helps dig for Draw 7s. That cube being light on combat so Narset gets pressured less, probably helps her.
I think Narset is good, but I don't like how she's more narrow than Jace Beleren. Narset is the better late game play, but I can't just throw her into any blue deck like I can with Jace. Also, not drawing lands is detrimental early game, and there's always the chance she can whiff, which is a big let down.
I can see people wanting to play her based on her static ability though, but I personally don't think that ability holds too much weight. It's like being uncounterable: it's a nice bonus, but it only matters in certain matchups.
In the right deck, she's pretty solid. At least in my play group, a very popular strategy is control decks with a combo finish. Think jeskai control with a Sneak Attack, but the only good Sneak Attack target in the deck Emrakul. A control deck with a Tinker. Twin. A reanimator plan. Strip Mine + Fastbond + Cruciple. Upheaval. Daretti + Mindslaver. So on and so forth. In a lot of these decks, Narset would make the cut. And not only that, she can be part of your combo plan with draw seven effects!
I'm confident she'll see play over here, but also don't think she's much of an early pick and blue is incredibly tight. I'll likely test her, but I'm not convinced she's worth the inclusion.
She's definitely not bad. Card draw hate is powerful, and the card selection is nice too. It's decent in an artifact deck, which I like. Nevertheless, I'm less excited about this card than I would have been without so many other cool planeswalkers already spoiled. I like Kasmina better.
I was intrigued because I’m trying to force a bad package with Fevered Visions / Howling Mine / Jace Beleren / Black Vise / various tappers, but “Noncreature, Nonland” probably means it cross-pollinates too little.
I have no interest in this for cube. The static ability is super matchup dependent most of the time, and the activated ability is pretty inconsistent. Maybe if she had an easier casting cost? But even at 2U I think she's still a miss.
I want to re-open the discussion for Narset. She has WILDLY overperformed. More than any card I can remember throwing in my cube because "why not". Just a bit of a background/story:
For those here who don't know me, I play A LOT of Limited. I draft every format > 100 times, and I'm already encroaching on 20 Drafts of the newest set. You can see my initial ranking of Narset in this SCG article, and it was quite low. Similar criticisms to that here, and even more exacerbated by the lack of powerful non-creatures in Draft. Believe me when I say she is a first pickable card in normal draft. Note that she made it into a lot of Draft decks at the Mythic Championship as well.
But Cube is not normal Draft, and it's easier to interact with Walkers in Cube. However, for three mana she has felt worth it. She isn't playable in every blue deck, but she's playable in most. You might brick on an activation, and I've seen that happen, but she is quite powerful. Not to mention the disgusting combo with wheel of fortune/timetwister.
I proxied her up last week and threw her in my cube because I thought she had potential. She has made it into a couple decks so far, and each time she was disgusting. Things I've seen Narset do:
-2 grab Dack Fayden, play Dack, + Dack target opponent to make them discard their last card.
-2 grab a wrath, cast it. -2 again the following turn and grab Fractured Identity.
An opponent has used a burn spell on Narset after she minused twice because they needed to unlock card draw.
dig 8 cards to find sneak attack.
Cryptic Command to Counter + bounce Narset for more activations.
The TL;DR from my experience so far is that digging eight cards is an almost unparalleled power-level for a 3cc card.
I don't know if she's going to stay in my cube for long, but I wouldn't be surprised if she does. I suggest testing her. Many people had her as near unplayable in Draft, and it's rare that a card goes from unplayable to first pickable. And she's even better in cube from what I can see so far.
I want to re-open the discussion for Narset. She has WILDLY overperformed. More than any card I can remember throwing in my cube because "why not". Just a bit of a background/story:
For those here who don't know me, I play A LOT of Limited. I draft every format > 100 times, and I'm already encroaching on 20 Drafts of the newest set. You can see my initial ranking of Narset in this SCG article, and it was quite low. Similar criticisms to that here, and even more exacerbated by the lack of powerful non-creatures in Draft. Believe me when I say she is a first pickable card in normal draft. Note that she made it into a lot of Draft decks at the Mythic Championship as well.
But Cube is not normal Draft, and it's easier to interact with Walkers in Cube. However, for three mana she has felt worth it. She isn't playable in every blue deck, but she's playable in most. You might brick on an activation, and I've seen that happen, but she is quite powerful. Not to mention the disgusting combo with wheel of fortune/timetwister.
I proxied her up last week and threw her in my cube because I thought she had potential. She has made it into a couple decks so far, and each time she was disgusting. Things I've seen Narset do:
-2 grab Dack Fayden, play Dack, + Dack target opponent to make them discard their last card.
-2 grab a wrath, cast it. -2 again the following turn and grab Fractured Identity.
An opponent has used a burn spell on Narset after she minused twice because they needed to unlock card draw.
dig 8 cards to find sneak attack.
Cryptic Command to Counter + bounce Narset for more activations.
The TL;DR from my experience so far is that digging eight cards is an almost unparalleled power-level for a 3cc card.
I don't know if she's going to stay in my cube for long, but I wouldn't be surprised if she does. I suggest testing her. Many people had her as near unplayable in Draft, and it's rare that a card goes from unplayable to first pickable. And she's even better in cube from what I can see so far.
Came here looking for this and was not disappointed. Great write up, Ryan.
I've watched enough streamers (including you) 3-0 in draft on the back of Narset that I need to try her out in my Cube. Hitting any noncreature/nonland card is just so much better than instant/sorcery that her usefulness spreads beyond just "spells matters". Being able to draw you that build around enchantment like sneak attack or recurring nightmare while still giving you the option for artifact, planeswalker, instant or sorcery makes her enough of a swiss-army-knife card that I think Narset wil perform very well in most cubes.
*edit: Oh and that static ability will also randomly hose some players right out of a game. A planeswalker that nets you value immediately while hampering an opponent is a strong card at 3 mana.
I am glad you talked about this. She has overperformed for me in testing for Standard Constructed in Arena, and I have also thought about her in cube due to so many powerful spells making her just as good in a solid control cube deck as constructed. Think she should be seriously tested by every cubist.
I play her a lot in standard sideboard and she's absolutely incredible , top 3 card in standard for control mirrors.
If the deck is relying on cantripping, it's borderline unfair.
However, I'm hesitant to say she'll be good in a cube that thoroughly supports agro. She seems so bad on the defense against any sort of creature deck. Very much a 3/10 or 10/10 type card.
That being said, there are some sweet interactions in cube with her, and I may be under-estimating just how often she find herselfs in matchups where she can downtick twice, or her static ability does work. Probably bannanas in the MTGO vintage cube
maybe test her at some point, but still a bit skeptical.
We tested her this past weekend, and she was fantastic. Double Impulse in a Control deck is great even when the static is irrelevant. I initially overestimated the non-creature, non-land downside, but if used in the appropriate deck she feels like a delayed Dig Through Time.
Added her to my cube, I dunno if she will last too long but digging 8 and nabbing 2 is decent and most decks are somewhat vulnerable to the no extra draw clause.
Just wanted to chime in here and say that Narset has WELL outperformed in the decks she has been played in. And don't forget about that absolutely disgusting interaction with Timetwister/Wheel of Fortune.
The passive ability of Narset is relevant a lot more often than you'd think, plenty of cards in cube draw cards on ETB or when they resolve, and shutting those cards off when you opponent really needs to refill their hand can be devastating.
Overall, extremely surprised how well this card did in testing, definitely try this out before dismissing it outright.
Glad you are getting good results with her. For me she would have to outcompete Jace beleren for a spot. Any thoughts on this?
Your Cube list looks tight. I would likely not replace Beleren with Narset, but Narset's ceiling is higher, and she's better in the control decks that want to draft her. Beleren is universally solid.
I replaced Beleren with her. No one has played Beleren for a while, and with how good/prevalent aggro is in my cube, being able to dig 4 for an answer is better than 3-mana sorcery-speed cycled Renewed Faith.
I replaced Beleren with her. No one has played Beleren for a while, and with how good/prevalent aggro is in my cube, being able to dig 4 for an answer is better than 3-mana sorcery-speed cycled Renewed Faith.
Jace Beleren is currently the 11th most represented in the Xmage 3-0 Archives. Aggro is strong, but it usually only represents 25% of the field in an 8-man draft. Jace Beleren will always make the cut in my blue decks, but I'll side it out vs aggro (assuming I have decent sideboard options for the matchup).
Narset has a high ceiling, but not being able to draw lands is a huge hinderance on curve. Both JB and Narset suck against aggro, but Narset is more matchup / situationally dependent. I can slip Jace into blue deck. Assuming you can protect either walker, Jace straight up outdraws Narset.
I replaced Beleren with her. No one has played Beleren for a while, and with how good/prevalent aggro is in my cube, being able to dig 4 for an answer is better than 3-mana sorcery-speed cycled Renewed Faith.
Jace Beleren is currently the 11th most represented in the Xmage 3-0 Archives. Aggro is strong, but it usually only represents 25% of the field in an 8-man draft. Jace Beleren will always make the cut in my blue decks, but I'll side it out vs aggro (assuming I have decent sideboard options for the matchup).
Narset has a high ceiling, but not being able to draw lands is a huge hinderance on curve. Both JB and Narset suck against aggro, but Narset is more matchup / situationally dependent. I can slip Jace into blue deck. Assuming you can protect either walker, Jace straight up outdraws Narset.
Outdrawing Narset is one metric, but that might not be the metric you care about. Many decks care more about card selection than card quantity and would prefer Narset to Jace. Especially when you consider that she combos with cards like Wheel/Twister, Dack, Vendillion Clique, etc. The more common combo decks are in your cube, the more I'd lean Narset > Jace. And while both are pretty bad against aggro, at least Narset can quickly dig towards your cards that matter like Wraths, Batterskull, tutors for those cards etc.
I'm not saying that Jace is worse than Narset, but I think choosing to compare them on only one axis is a disservice to both. I'm currently playing both and have no intention of cutting either.
Outdrawing Narset is one metric, but that might not be the metric you care about. Many decks care more about card selection than card quantity and would prefer Narset to Jace. Especially when you consider that she combos with cards like Wheel/Twister, Dack, Vendillion Clique, etc. The more common combo decks are in your cube, the more I'd lean Narset > Jace. And while both are pretty bad against aggro, at least Narset can quickly dig towards your cards that matter like Wraths, Batterskull, tutors for those cards etc.
Being able to slip into more decks and not having to risk whiffing are also very important metrics. If Narset whiffs once, she becomes really bad unless her static ability becomes a factor.
Depending what you would define as combo, I would say I'd prefer Jace Beleren in most combo decks minus storm because a lot of combo decks (Cheaty Face / Reaniamtor / Kiki-Twin) rely on having the right creature in their hand just as much as having the right spell.
The one archetype where I'd probably prefer Narset more is in a blue based ramp deck that wants to filter through their lands as much as possible since over 50% of their deck consists of lands / ramp. Ramp also utilizes draw 7s very well and would want Narset's ability against control, ramp's worst matchup.
When Narset is either disrupting the opponent's draw or comboing with your own draw-7 effects, she's most likely better than Jace Beleren. But in other situations, I'd rather have Jace.
I was admittedly cold on Narset at first blush. I tested her (in Beleren's spot, actually) in a couple of shells recently based on the great review that ryansaxe gave her. She played better than expected. Enough so that I started looking to see if I had a cut I liked for her. Ultimately I just can't find one though. I like baby Jace more because I think it contributes to more decks/situations. Narset was good in the blue matchup I tested her in (where she turned off the blue control player's draw spells for multiple turns before they O-Ring'd Narset) but in the matchup against Rakdos aggro she was pretty bad.
Ultimately I think she's a lot better than she originally looked, but I still think she's a miss for small- to medium-sized cubes unless you play a heavy draw-7 combo theme, face a lot of control mirrors or desire sideboard-only cards in the cube. She's a fantastic sideboard card, FWIW.
Kind of a neat card. 3 mana to dig 4 for a noncreature / nonland card as a floor really isn't to bad. You would still be left with 4 loyalty so there is a chance it can stick around for 1 more turn. Not sure how the math works in terms of % chance of missing. In that regard Jace Beleren is probably better than this. Jace often dies really easy though since down ticking him puts him to 2 loyalty, and upticking often feels bad to give your opponenet an extra draw which doesn't help you pull ahead.
About 10% of my cube has some sort of draw effect attached to it, and while this may not have an interaction with all of them, I think at least 1/2 it probably does if not more.
Some of the interactions can become really strong, such as combos with the draw 7 effects in cube timetwister, but it also makes cards better in your own deck like
My first impression was this card was it would only be good in control mirrors by shutting down Draw spells of an opponent. It might shine a little more in that matchup, but it can also slow down or severely limit the impact of many spells an opponent could be running in a lot of other archetypes. While not exhaustive, just a look through my cube I found the following non monoblue cards that it would have a good chance of having an impact on.
While this does not interact with a large number of cards, drawing extra cards is one of the strongest things you can do to help win a game of magic, and slowing your opponent down in doing that can have a large impact on the game. Also turning your opponents Brainstorm into a Draw 1 put 2 cards back on top of their library is pretty funny.
Not sure if this get's there or not, the consistency of Jace Beleren is probably more important than this, But I do like the effect that Narset can have on games, and I think it is defiantly worth considering in multiplayer cubes
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
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This one and Ashiok are going to flip some tables in EDH though.
Not sure how the math works out, But digging 4 is really deep. I am sure someone better at math can do a better job than I can, but this is the result I got
Looking at a Geometric Calculator if my inputs are correct.
https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/kmliu/mtg_calculator.html
30 Cards in a deck (you already drew 7 to start the game + 3 draws from turns)
Number of Hit's left in the deck: I assumed 6, but to each deck is obviously different. 32% chance of missing.
If you assume you have 17 lands that leaves 22 spots open. 1 of which is Nar set = 22 spots open. If 1/2 of your remaining spots are noncreators, on average you will have drawn 4 or 5 lands by turn 3. 2 or 3 creatures, and 2 or 3 spells so it's probably pretty likely you will have 6 or 7 spells left at least in your deck that you can hit. This feels like a heavy blue creature deck to me as well.
this can hit noncreator artifacts, enchantments, instants, and Sorceries. In my cube that represents over 1/2 the cards you draft.
You are probably right it might be to narrow of an effect, but only the static portion. The drawing portion I think actually get's there if I have done the math mostly right.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
[180 classic cube]
I can see people wanting to play her based on her static ability though, but I personally don't think that ability holds too much weight. It's like being uncounterable: it's a nice bonus, but it only matters in certain matchups.
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I'm confident she'll see play over here, but also don't think she's much of an early pick and blue is incredibly tight. I'll likely test her, but I'm not convinced she's worth the inclusion.
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For those here who don't know me, I play A LOT of Limited. I draft every format > 100 times, and I'm already encroaching on 20 Drafts of the newest set. You can see my initial ranking of Narset in this SCG article, and it was quite low. Similar criticisms to that here, and even more exacerbated by the lack of powerful non-creatures in Draft. Believe me when I say she is a first pickable card in normal draft. Note that she made it into a lot of Draft decks at the Mythic Championship as well.
But Cube is not normal Draft, and it's easier to interact with Walkers in Cube. However, for three mana she has felt worth it. She isn't playable in every blue deck, but she's playable in most. You might brick on an activation, and I've seen that happen, but she is quite powerful. Not to mention the disgusting combo with wheel of fortune/timetwister.
I proxied her up last week and threw her in my cube because I thought she had potential. She has made it into a couple decks so far, and each time she was disgusting. Things I've seen Narset do:
The TL;DR from my experience so far is that digging eight cards is an almost unparalleled power-level for a 3cc card.
I don't know if she's going to stay in my cube for long, but I wouldn't be surprised if she does. I suggest testing her. Many people had her as near unplayable in Draft, and it's rare that a card goes from unplayable to first pickable. And she's even better in cube from what I can see so far.
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I've watched enough streamers (including you) 3-0 in draft on the back of Narset that I need to try her out in my Cube. Hitting any noncreature/nonland card is just so much better than instant/sorcery that her usefulness spreads beyond just "spells matters". Being able to draw you that build around enchantment like sneak attack or recurring nightmare while still giving you the option for artifact, planeswalker, instant or sorcery makes her enough of a swiss-army-knife card that I think Narset wil perform very well in most cubes.
*edit: Oh and that static ability will also randomly hose some players right out of a game. A planeswalker that nets you value immediately while hampering an opponent is a strong card at 3 mana.
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If the deck is relying on cantripping, it's borderline unfair.
However, I'm hesitant to say she'll be good in a cube that thoroughly supports agro. She seems so bad on the defense against any sort of creature deck. Very much a 3/10 or 10/10 type card.
That being said, there are some sweet interactions in cube with her, and I may be under-estimating just how often she find herselfs in matchups where she can downtick twice, or her static ability does work. Probably bannanas in the MTGO vintage cube
maybe test her at some point, but still a bit skeptical.
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The passive ability of Narset is relevant a lot more often than you'd think, plenty of cards in cube draw cards on ETB or when they resolve, and shutting those cards off when you opponent really needs to refill their hand can be devastating.
Overall, extremely surprised how well this card did in testing, definitely try this out before dismissing it outright.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
Your Cube list looks tight. I would likely not replace Beleren with Narset, but Narset's ceiling is higher, and she's better in the control decks that want to draft her. Beleren is universally solid.
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Jace Beleren is currently the 11th most represented in the Xmage 3-0 Archives. Aggro is strong, but it usually only represents 25% of the field in an 8-man draft. Jace Beleren will always make the cut in my blue decks, but I'll side it out vs aggro (assuming I have decent sideboard options for the matchup).
Narset has a high ceiling, but not being able to draw lands is a huge hinderance on curve. Both JB and Narset suck against aggro, but Narset is more matchup / situationally dependent. I can slip Jace into blue deck. Assuming you can protect either walker, Jace straight up outdraws Narset.
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Outdrawing Narset is one metric, but that might not be the metric you care about. Many decks care more about card selection than card quantity and would prefer Narset to Jace. Especially when you consider that she combos with cards like Wheel/Twister, Dack, Vendillion Clique, etc. The more common combo decks are in your cube, the more I'd lean Narset > Jace. And while both are pretty bad against aggro, at least Narset can quickly dig towards your cards that matter like Wraths, Batterskull, tutors for those cards etc.
I'm not saying that Jace is worse than Narset, but I think choosing to compare them on only one axis is a disservice to both. I'm currently playing both and have no intention of cutting either.
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Being able to slip into more decks and not having to risk whiffing are also very important metrics. If Narset whiffs once, she becomes really bad unless her static ability becomes a factor.
Depending what you would define as combo, I would say I'd prefer Jace Beleren in most combo decks minus storm because a lot of combo decks (Cheaty Face / Reaniamtor / Kiki-Twin) rely on having the right creature in their hand just as much as having the right spell.
The one archetype where I'd probably prefer Narset more is in a blue based ramp deck that wants to filter through their lands as much as possible since over 50% of their deck consists of lands / ramp. Ramp also utilizes draw 7s very well and would want Narset's ability against control, ramp's worst matchup.
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I was admittedly cold on Narset at first blush. I tested her (in Beleren's spot, actually) in a couple of shells recently based on the great review that ryansaxe gave her. She played better than expected. Enough so that I started looking to see if I had a cut I liked for her. Ultimately I just can't find one though. I like baby Jace more because I think it contributes to more decks/situations. Narset was good in the blue matchup I tested her in (where she turned off the blue control player's draw spells for multiple turns before they O-Ring'd Narset) but in the matchup against Rakdos aggro she was pretty bad.
Ultimately I think she's a lot better than she originally looked, but I still think she's a miss for small- to medium-sized cubes unless you play a heavy draw-7 combo theme, face a lot of control mirrors or desire sideboard-only cards in the cube. She's a fantastic sideboard card, FWIW.
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