Some of the folks in my group aren't very happy with my green section as it currently stands. To sum up their feedabck (as best I can), it's that green's identify in my cube is currently relegated to one of support. Tons of Ramp. But they feel like, outside of this, Green in my cube has very little role and doesn't do much to incentivize drafters to go after monogreen (or even green-leaning) builds. They keep asking for 'payoffs in Green.'
I've done my best to field these inputs and justify them using online sources I can find, both general and on specific cards. It's hard for me to do since I don't honestly have much experience with this format. Cube/Limited is way different format than 60-card casual, which is what most of my group has experience with, tbh.
I did try to point out that most of the true 'payoff' cards for Ramp exist in colors outside of green. (completely on purpose) Yeah--that does relegate green to a bit of a support role in most decks it'll show up in. Fair enough.
I want them to enjoy drafting all the colors in my cube but I'm certainly not letting it get all jacked up by subbing in a bunch of otherwise-marginal cards just to satisfy a bunch of (honestly) old timers (and inexperienced new players taking their cues from the oldtimers) who really don't have a lot of experience with this format.
1) Is there a way to tactfully explain to them why green looks the way it does now?
2) Assuming you can understand what it is they're asking for here, can any of you offer up any suggestions to fix this and give Green a bit more punch. One of the things they specifically pointed to was the complete lack of Instants outside of Berserk & Worldly Tutor. I guess they expect some more combat tricks or something?
They also don't like the fact I put in Fruitcake Elemental over some of their objections (I guess ). I see that card as a fun, one-card sub game that kills people and causes aggravation. That one change caused the entire conversation. "Why are you messing around with cute stuff like this...where's the MEAT?" There's no payoffs in green, etc etc.
So, my green section would sometimes get some criticisms in the past, and they may or may not be relevant here. I'll try to convey the general attitudes I had to contend with by way of my own scattered thoughts:
1) I'm not sure how you'd explain it to them. Why not explain your general thoughts to us?
as for 2) In the past, (540 cards) my green section would sometime fail to deliver a consistent message to my friends. There were some aggro dudes, some midrange dudes, some gimmicky dudes, some late-game fatties, all with some busted stuff like Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, and with a fair amount of ramp to top it off. The only "real" green deck was ramp, the rest were just cards that fit into decks dominated by a different color. I think the size of the cube impacts this sort of thing, because you may not consistently be seeing the pieces you want to see to focus on green specifically. White sections might have as many as nine aggro 1drops, same with Red; Green has what, four or five? And you might not even see them all? I imagine it might be frustrating to make a green-focused aggro deck. An alternative situation: What if my final pool of green cards has stuff like Channel alongside Briarhorn and Tendershoot Dryad? Maybe I drafted poorly, but, I think in larger cubes you have to beware that a cohesive theme might be harder to get, so it might feel like the payoff isn't there unless you have maximum support and redundancy.
So, as like a pseudo-holistic judgment of the situation, I think it might be worth considering if the "meat" isn't perceived to be there, it could be simply because when players get the opportunity for a really strong card, it just doesn't really fit their plan as well as they'd like. As far as green instants go, yeah, I think it's hard to find good ones outside of combat tricks. Which, might mean they feel like your aggro section needs more support, because maybe the creatures aren't quite dominating combat as effectively as they hope, or it doesn't have enough ways to recover post-wrath, etc. I don't think addressing this requires using "marginal" cards, but I think it might be worth re-examining which among the cards in your green section fail to deliver on a specific theme. Maybe cutting them for cards that really gives that final kick to green aggro would make them appreciate it more. Like, what if you included Heroic Intervention? What about free spells like Mutagenic Growth or Invigorate? What if your Gruul section included Ghor-Clan Rampager? I don't play these cards because I've dropped the green aggro theme (which my players honestly feel great about), but if I were to go back to it, I'd give some of these serious thought.
I also noted you lack cards like Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail, which I feel are incentives for building big green ramp decks. I also only see one green 7-drop; maybe a second one would help deliver payoff for big green?
It it more that they just don't like the strategies green brings to the table, or that they feel your specific list is missing tools to make those strategies worthwhile/competitive?
Not sure why you would deliberately put the ramp payoffs in other colors, it seems like an unnecessary nerf to green in an otherwise very high-powered cube. The other colors already have access to ramp in the form of artifacts, so green already has an identity issue when it's competing with Signets and Mana Vault and friends. Also cards like Rofellos and Channel are best in a mono-green deck.
In high-powered environments, ramp tends to be the way to go for green, and the small or mid sized value creatures fall to the wayside. Stuff like Noose Constrictor, Masked Admirers and Sylvan Advocate might just not get played at all. Think about cutting those to make room. I'm guessing Kessig Prowler sees very little play as well, since it looks impossible to draft a base green aggro deck.
I also noted you lack cards like Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail, which I feel are incentives for building big green ramp decks. I also only see one green 7-drop; maybe a second one would help deliver payoff for big green?
Noted. I will work on getting T&N in for sure and another 7-Drop. I do like Terastodon & (if multiplayer) Sylvan Primordial. One of our guys also suggested Impervious Greatwurm as a potential payoff card--I like the overall idea but I think there's more powerful options. Avenger of Zendikar seems like he ought to be amazing as well but not sure..
Quote from wtwlf123 »
It it more that they just don't like the strategies green brings to the table, or that they feel your specific list is missing tools to make those strategies worthwhile/competitive?
I'd say it's the latter. To the extent that the main complainer straight-up suggested (more or less) "You mise well just take green out altogether if you're not gonna support it properly." Lolwut? How do I even respond to something like that?
It says "multiplayer cube" but this looks like a normal 1v1 cube to me. Is it more of a sometimes-multiplayer cube?
It started off as duels-only. Then, one of our guys suggested that we draft it and try playing MP games with it, so I made a few changes in each color that were designed to not hobble things if it were drafted for duels. But NOW the guys seem to hint they might prefer dueling with it after all because the games themselves do go an awful lot faster. (I can definitely see that..) So, it might be going back to more original configuration. I honestly like how it's set up right now though.
Not sure why you would deliberately put the ramp payoffs in other colors, it seems like an unnecessary nerf to green in an otherwise very high-powered cube. The other colors already have access to ramp in the form of artifacts, so green already has an identity issue when it's competing with Signets and Mana Vault and friends. Also cards like Rofellos and Channel are best in a mono-green deck.
Well, to be clear, I didn't try to do that. What I mean here is I just built a good spread of multicolored stuff and (in green guilds) you'll find some fatties there. Not on purpose but they are perfectly fine ramp targets. Ditto for all the X-spells in the other colors. Those aren't intended as 'targets for green ramp' but they help alleviate some of the pressure to have quite so many payoffs strictly in green. (I think? Am I wrong-headed here?)
In high-powered environments, ramp tends to be the way to go for green, and the small or mid sized value creatures fall to the wayside. Stuff like Noose Constrictor, Masked Admirers and Sylvan Advocate might just not get played at all. Think about cutting those to make room. I'm guessing Kessig Prowler sees very little play as well, since it looks impossible to draft a base green aggro deck.
Right on. Well, again, most of those mid-range 'utility' type cards are there as, yeah, support cards for other archetypes. This is exactly what they seem to be complaining about.
When my playgroup of 5 played with my cube (Around Zendikar), we played sealed and there are zero green cards that got played! Fortunately this changed immediately.
In my group, people gravitated towards beefy midrange green creatures. Over the years more green creatures are added such as Thrun (which gave the voltron archtype - helped by more swords from that block).
Green Sun’s Zenith and Birthing Pod also complemented Survival-Recurring strategies by adding more search and consistency. With the slowly improving value creatures, this archtype has strengthened.
Polukranos, Wolfir Silverheart (now Verderous Gearhulk) has made ramp have a “lower curve” so you don’t have to wait for larger payoffs.
Green also has a land matters theme (Loam, Ramunap Excavator, the Titan, possibly Titania). Personally my cube does not flesh this out fully but this is something you can consider as being unique for green. Avenger of Zendikar is an example of land matters and ramp payoff that fits.
Green can also have a cheaty strategy (Natural order, Tooth and Nail) that works with Red (Sneak attack), Black (reanimator), and blue (Show
And Tell, Tinker)
So all theses strategies work well together: lands and ramp, or cheat value creatures and overwhelm your opponent.
I know I am late to the party here, but when my table mentions something they believe to be problematic, or complains about a color, in my group (boros & Simic were claimed to be undraftable).
I tend to force that in the next few drafts to see if they are right, sometimes they are, and sometimes it is just a play group dynamic.
My suggestion is force green a few times. If it is truly viable, and they are not playing it, then you will get all the cards, and you should be able to smash face. If you can't make it work, even when you are the only one really drafting it, then they may have a point.
My group was right about simic and wrong about boros, and I adjusted accordingly.
I know I am late to the party here, but when my table mentions something they believe to be problematic, or complains about a color, in my group (boros & Simic were claimed to be undraftable).
I tend to force that in the next few drafts to see if they are right, sometimes they are, and sometimes it is just a play group dynamic.
My suggestion is force green a few times. If it is truly viable, and they are not playing it, then you will get all the cards, and you should be able to smash face. If you can't make it work, even when you are the only one really drafting it, then they may have a point.
My group was right about simic and wrong about boros, and I adjusted accordingly.
Just going through a couple online drafts, Green seems dense with weak pet cards - Permeating Mass, Briarhorn, Silvos, Penumbra Wurm, the weenie-aggro package, and high-drops outside green seem to high in devotion for an incidental splash. Kill Your Darlings, duder
I know I am late to the party here, but when my table mentions something they believe to be problematic, or complains about a color, in my group (boros & Simic were claimed to be undraftable).
I tend to force that in the next few drafts to see if they are right, sometimes they are, and sometimes it is just a play group dynamic.
My suggestion is force green a few times. If it is truly viable, and they are not playing it, then you will get all the cards, and you should be able to smash face. If you can't make it work, even when you are the only one really drafting it, then they may have a point.
My group was right about simic and wrong about boros, and I adjusted accordingly.
It's funny..this was something that occurred to me.. "I'll show 'em.." That said, I did go ahead and make a few changes (details below) in the hopes of addressing some of the things they were getting crabby about. I've run these changes by my group and the main complainer seems to like the changes a lot. He did point out the potential difficulty of GGG on some of them but he thought they were worth trying out.
Just going through a couple online drafts, Green seems dense with weak pet cards - Permeating Mass, Briarhorn, Silvos, Penumbra Wurm, the weenie-aggro package, and high-drops outside green seem to high in devotion for an incidental splash. Kill Your Darlings, duder
Thanks much. These are fair points--let me address a couple of them. I don't really disagree with your prognosis, but I will just say these are in there for a reason. At least for the time being until we have a few chances to try drafting with them first.
1) Briarhorn. I intend this guy as a green Shriekmaw, more or less. Maybe his ceiling is too low though..+3/+3 is different than 'Kill'. You've given me something to think about here.
2) Silvos. Just added him thke other day. The idea was a big stinking beater for green. This is a CLEAR payoff card for monogreen decks. (Something I am trying to give my group.) Not hexproof hard to deal with but yeah, obnoxious. I did have some concerns about GGG as I added him, but I figured I have more than enough colorfixing to accomodate.
3) Penumbra. I'm not particularly married to this one. It feels like complete filler to be honest. But, again, to mollify the folks wanting some more payoffs for green strategies, I chucked him in. You kill him, he's not really dead. I like grindy *****. I plan to replace him with a stronger candidate as soon as they print one.
4) Permeating Mass. Definitely the most controversial pick. The basic idea is that he (I think) opens up some very interest control deck ideas and gives a few options for Prison decks (I just added a few prison-y artifacts the other day). He also completely shakes up the game (for so little mana!) and makes the match more interesting overall. But really, there's also a very personal story here, if you care to read it. As you can see, this card has a potentially very good reason to be here. (Otherwise, yeah, I agree. It's weird. I will say...if it does absolutely nothing whatsover in a few drafts, out it comes, no matter what.)
Some of the folks in my group aren't very happy with my green section as it currently stands. To sum up their feedabck (as best I can), it's that green's identify in my cube is currently relegated to one of support. Tons of Ramp. But they feel like, outside of this, Green in my cube has very little role and doesn't do much to incentivize drafters to go after monogreen (or even green-leaning) builds. They keep asking for 'payoffs in Green.'
I've done my best to field these inputs and justify them using online sources I can find, both general and on specific cards. It's hard for me to do since I don't honestly have much experience with this format. Cube/Limited is way different format than 60-card casual, which is what most of my group has experience with, tbh.
I did try to point out that most of the true 'payoff' cards for Ramp exist in colors outside of green. (completely on purpose) Yeah--that does relegate green to a bit of a support role in most decks it'll show up in. Fair enough.
I want them to enjoy drafting all the colors in my cube but I'm certainly not letting it get all jacked up by subbing in a bunch of otherwise-marginal cards just to satisfy a bunch of (honestly) old timers (and inexperienced new players taking their cues from the oldtimers) who really don't have a lot of experience with this format.
1) Is there a way to tactfully explain to them why green looks the way it does now?
2) Assuming you can understand what it is they're asking for here, can any of you offer up any suggestions to fix this and give Green a bit more punch. One of the things they specifically pointed to was the complete lack of Instants outside of Berserk & Worldly Tutor. I guess they expect some more combat tricks or something?
They also don't like the fact I put in Fruitcake Elemental over some of their objections (I guess ). I see that card as a fun, one-card sub game that kills people and causes aggravation. That one change caused the entire conversation. "Why are you messing around with cute stuff like this...where's the MEAT?" There's no payoffs in green, etc etc.
Appreciate your help!
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1) I'm not sure how you'd explain it to them. Why not explain your general thoughts to us?
as for 2) In the past, (540 cards) my green section would sometime fail to deliver a consistent message to my friends. There were some aggro dudes, some midrange dudes, some gimmicky dudes, some late-game fatties, all with some busted stuff like Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, and with a fair amount of ramp to top it off. The only "real" green deck was ramp, the rest were just cards that fit into decks dominated by a different color. I think the size of the cube impacts this sort of thing, because you may not consistently be seeing the pieces you want to see to focus on green specifically. White sections might have as many as nine aggro 1drops, same with Red; Green has what, four or five? And you might not even see them all? I imagine it might be frustrating to make a green-focused aggro deck. An alternative situation: What if my final pool of green cards has stuff like Channel alongside Briarhorn and Tendershoot Dryad? Maybe I drafted poorly, but, I think in larger cubes you have to beware that a cohesive theme might be harder to get, so it might feel like the payoff isn't there unless you have maximum support and redundancy.
So, as like a pseudo-holistic judgment of the situation, I think it might be worth considering if the "meat" isn't perceived to be there, it could be simply because when players get the opportunity for a really strong card, it just doesn't really fit their plan as well as they'd like. As far as green instants go, yeah, I think it's hard to find good ones outside of combat tricks. Which, might mean they feel like your aggro section needs more support, because maybe the creatures aren't quite dominating combat as effectively as they hope, or it doesn't have enough ways to recover post-wrath, etc. I don't think addressing this requires using "marginal" cards, but I think it might be worth re-examining which among the cards in your green section fail to deliver on a specific theme. Maybe cutting them for cards that really gives that final kick to green aggro would make them appreciate it more. Like, what if you included Heroic Intervention? What about free spells like Mutagenic Growth or Invigorate? What if your Gruul section included Ghor-Clan Rampager? I don't play these cards because I've dropped the green aggro theme (which my players honestly feel great about), but if I were to go back to it, I'd give some of these serious thought.
I also noted you lack cards like Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail, which I feel are incentives for building big green ramp decks. I also only see one green 7-drop; maybe a second one would help deliver payoff for big green?
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I think you just need to add more big green fatties for ramp decks. It sounds to me like that's what they primarily want. I would start with Avenger of Zendikar and Terastodon, and maybe look at Primordial Hydra, Greenwarden of Murasa and Rampaging Baloths. I also second the suggestion of Tooth and Nail.
Not sure why you would deliberately put the ramp payoffs in other colors, it seems like an unnecessary nerf to green in an otherwise very high-powered cube. The other colors already have access to ramp in the form of artifacts, so green already has an identity issue when it's competing with Signets and Mana Vault and friends. Also cards like Rofellos and Channel are best in a mono-green deck.
In high-powered environments, ramp tends to be the way to go for green, and the small or mid sized value creatures fall to the wayside. Stuff like Noose Constrictor, Masked Admirers and Sylvan Advocate might just not get played at all. Think about cutting those to make room. I'm guessing Kessig Prowler sees very little play as well, since it looks impossible to draft a base green aggro deck.
If you need more instants, Vines of Vastwood, Moment's Peace and Beast Within are good options. An instant Naturalize effect might be nice too.
Noted. I will work on getting T&N in for sure and another 7-Drop. I do like Terastodon & (if multiplayer) Sylvan Primordial. One of our guys also suggested Impervious Greatwurm as a potential payoff card--I like the overall idea but I think there's more powerful options. Avenger of Zendikar seems like he ought to be amazing as well but not sure..
I'd say it's the latter. To the extent that the main complainer straight-up suggested (more or less) "You mise well just take green out altogether if you're not gonna support it properly." Lolwut? How do I even respond to something like that?
It started off as duels-only. Then, one of our guys suggested that we draft it and try playing MP games with it, so I made a few changes in each color that were designed to not hobble things if it were drafted for duels. But NOW the guys seem to hint they might prefer dueling with it after all because the games themselves do go an awful lot faster. (I can definitely see that..) So, it might be going back to more original configuration. I honestly like how it's set up right now though.
Noted.
Well, to be clear, I didn't try to do that. What I mean here is I just built a good spread of multicolored stuff and (in green guilds) you'll find some fatties there. Not on purpose but they are perfectly fine ramp targets. Ditto for all the X-spells in the other colors. Those aren't intended as 'targets for green ramp' but they help alleviate some of the pressure to have quite so many payoffs strictly in green. (I think? Am I wrong-headed here?)
Right on. Well, again, most of those mid-range 'utility' type cards are there as, yeah, support cards for other archetypes. This is exactly what they seem to be complaining about.
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In my group, people gravitated towards beefy midrange green creatures. Over the years more green creatures are added such as Thrun (which gave the voltron archtype - helped by more swords from that block).
Green Sun’s Zenith and Birthing Pod also complemented Survival-Recurring strategies by adding more search and consistency. With the slowly improving value creatures, this archtype has strengthened.
Polukranos, Wolfir Silverheart (now Verderous Gearhulk) has made ramp have a “lower curve” so you don’t have to wait for larger payoffs.
Green also has a land matters theme (Loam, Ramunap Excavator, the Titan, possibly Titania). Personally my cube does not flesh this out fully but this is something you can consider as being unique for green. Avenger of Zendikar is an example of land matters and ramp payoff that fits.
Green can also have a cheaty strategy (Natural order, Tooth and Nail) that works with Red (Sneak attack), Black (reanimator), and blue (Show
And Tell, Tinker)
So all theses strategies work well together: lands and ramp, or cheat value creatures and overwhelm your opponent.
I tend to force that in the next few drafts to see if they are right, sometimes they are, and sometimes it is just a play group dynamic.
My suggestion is force green a few times. If it is truly viable, and they are not playing it, then you will get all the cards, and you should be able to smash face. If you can't make it work, even when you are the only one really drafting it, then they may have a point.
My group was right about simic and wrong about boros, and I adjusted accordingly.
probably the best advice.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
It's funny..this was something that occurred to me.. "I'll show 'em.." That said, I did go ahead and make a few changes (details below) in the hopes of addressing some of the things they were getting crabby about. I've run these changes by my group and the main complainer seems to like the changes a lot. He did point out the potential difficulty of GGG on some of them but he thought they were worth trying out.
Thanks much. These are fair points--let me address a couple of them. I don't really disagree with your prognosis, but I will just say these are in there for a reason. At least for the time being until we have a few chances to try drafting with them first.
1) Briarhorn. I intend this guy as a green Shriekmaw, more or less. Maybe his ceiling is too low though..+3/+3 is different than 'Kill'. You've given me something to think about here.
2) Silvos. Just added him thke other day. The idea was a big stinking beater for green. This is a CLEAR payoff card for monogreen decks. (Something I am trying to give my group.) Not hexproof hard to deal with but yeah, obnoxious. I did have some concerns about GGG as I added him, but I figured I have more than enough colorfixing to accomodate.
3) Penumbra. I'm not particularly married to this one. It feels like complete filler to be honest. But, again, to mollify the folks wanting some more payoffs for green strategies, I chucked him in. You kill him, he's not really dead. I like grindy *****. I plan to replace him with a stronger candidate as soon as they print one.
4) Permeating Mass. Definitely the most controversial pick. The basic idea is that he (I think) opens up some very interest control deck ideas and gives a few options for Prison decks (I just added a few prison-y artifacts the other day). He also completely shakes up the game (for so little mana!) and makes the match more interesting overall. But really, there's also a very personal story here, if you care to read it. As you can see, this card has a potentially very good reason to be here. (Otherwise, yeah, I agree. It's weird. I will say...if it does absolutely nothing whatsover in a few drafts, out it comes, no matter what.)
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