Card is worthy of maindeck play != card sees maindeck play. Goes for both directions: sometimes cards that are good enough aren't adopted by the playgroup (applies to Thoughtseize for your group), and sometimes cards that are bad are popular (pet cards).
It often times is just a large echo chamber with inbred discussion birthed from this so called "Design Thesis".
To be fair, there's always some of this present wherever you go. Twitch chat is often like this. The pro SCG-tour camp is like this. Everyone finds a niche, and when they're around other folks that feel similarly about things, you tend to hear a lot of the same ideas. This isn't exclusive to Magic.
But I also think it's a cop-out to blame the end result of a process on things simply being an echo chamber, being "inbred" (as you so respectfully refer to it) or folks just blindly following others' ideas. It ignores the countless hours of testing, the thousands and thousands of drafts and the decades of cube management experience that is here in these forums.
Sometimes folks having shared ideas on here can be the result of shared philosophy. But more often than not, those shared ideas are the results of independently obtained successes and failures that are shared. Maybe we play Thoughtseize because we're victims of an antiquated thinking process and everyone will be cutting it in the future. Or maybe, just maybe, we play Thoughtseize because it's an insane Magic card in this format, and cubing with it is correct for 99.9% of cubes.
If your playgroup doesn't use it, there's no reason to run it. But it's also okay for people to suggest trying a different cut instead, or sharing that they wouldn't do that if it were up to them. Not because they're the victim of some horrible rampant group think, but because they've had years and years of success with it and they're just trying to help.
You all seem to simply operate on a cookie cutter idea of what Cube is and because of that, you seem to take cuts, and statements that have nothing to do with your cube, personally. So don't charge me with changing my argument simply because you misconstrued what I said.
*EDIT*
I will add, that conversations like this are exactly WHY I don't post my Cube list here for contribution, and why I largely avoid even lurking in this section. It often times is just a large echo chamber with inbred discussion birthed from this so called "Design Thesis".
Ironically enough, posting your list here or especially on CubeTutor might better allow the commenters here to understand how cutting Thoughtseize fits into your particular cube's design. Instead, we have to assess that cut in a vacuum, purely on power level, because you've deliberately chosen not to give us any other information.
You all seem to simply operate on a cookie cutter idea of what Cube is and because of that, you seem to take cuts, and statements that have nothing to do with your cube, personally. So don't charge me with changing my argument simply because you misconstrued what I said.
*EDIT*
I will add, that conversations like this are exactly WHY I don't post my Cube list here for contribution, and why I largely avoid even lurking in this section. It often times is just a large echo chamber with inbred discussion birthed from this so called "Design Thesis".
Ironically enough, posting your list here or especially on CubeTutor might better allow the commenters here to understand how cutting Thoughtseize fits into your particular cube's design. Instead, we have to assess that cut in a vacuum, purely on power level, because you've deliberately chosen not to give us any other information.
I agree!
If you took the set of all people who would post something akin to "I'm cutting Thoughtseize", 99% of those people are someone who doesn't understand the card or has limited understanding of magic. 1% might have an eccentric cube (maybe an agro only cube), or a playgroup that likes that wants to do combo shenanigans only. However, people will assume the former, before given information to conclude the latter. I think the former personality profile might benefit from the feedback "cutting thoughtseize is a mistake!".
You are free to build your cube however you like. You should probably disregard the criticism around here because it's gone a bit too far. Please remember though that this is the internet, so if you post the unpopular opinion on any site, you will get some backlash. Keep your chin up because myself and others will encourage cube diversity.
Side note: I do however agree that thoughtseize is an auto include with a cube the size of 1 card(s). I do recommend watching a few legacy matches that use the card to persuade you. Bug cascade (I forgot the real name) and junk stoneblade. Best of luck!
Despise and Thoughtseize have been falling to the SB since 2016 in our drafts.
I understand what you are saying, and I am on board with "hey if my playgroup never plays it , why bother including it!" reasoning. Ultimately it's about yours and their enjoyment....
But statements like my quote, in conjunction with other things you are saying, raise alarm bells to me that there's more going on here.
Despise is not in the same stratosphere of card that thoughtseize is. It's like saying, cards like lightning bolt and scorching spear have stopped seeing main deck play since 2016.
Since the idea of thoughtseize not being main deck worthy is so bazaar to me, especially from apparent pro tour caliber players, I'd love to understand "why". The explanations aren't lining up to me. If you could ask your playgroup why they aren't main decking it, and some sample decks it would satisfy my curiosity. Obviously do what you want, but mentioning this in case it interests you.
Also want to apologize for the condescending tone in my posts... I go full robot when analyzing magic cards. It's not personal!
I lurked in this forum for a long time and was extremely interessed with your opinions but never thought I had something interesting to add to your evaluations, so I had no need to create an account and reply to you guys.
Funnily enough, my first post won't be about Magic but about Cube philosophy, and, if I dare say, about the importance of valuing opinions.
I'll start by making a statement which I think everyone here deeply agree with : "Cube is fun".
I think we're mainly Spikes here, so of course, winning is part of fun. But style is also a thing. In my Cube playgroup, we vote at the end of the Cube for the most awesome thing that happened during the session. The winner gets a reward and the title of "Best play of the day" or something along those lines. It's incredibly Casual, but it's a way to show that he show us something awesome and we all love it, because we also love to speak about Magic after.
So, what does it change ? For some, it won't change anything and they'll still play for winning, which is fine, because they have fun this way. For others, sometimes less competitive players, it's a way to draft not only a good deck, but a fun one. Maybe they'll lose some win percentage, but they'll create something awesome that they'll remember !
Winning with Jace and Teferi is nice and stuff, but Cruel Ultimatum your opponent and rebuy it with Eternal Witness, then block with Witness, Cruel again, and do it a third time is way better.
Let's just assume that competitive players who want to try something else than competitive play can prioritize fun, could we ?
With that in mind, what if they don't find it fun to play with Thoughtseize ? What if they prefer to do their own dumb thing and let others do stupid but extremely fun things too ?
Well, if no one of my playgroup find a card fun, I'm urge to cut it out. I deeply understand that the community is dazed by this cut, and as a fan of Thoughtseize, I'm pretty interessed too. But Super said that the card wasn't played by his group, does that mean that they're dumb *******s and we should teach them everything with a condescending tone ? I don't think so. I'd love to have a chat with him about what cards are prefered and in which archetypes (Should I play Thoughtseize in a Pod/Collected Company deck when I can have access to Mesmeric Fiend instead ?).
When in lack in information, misjudgment is easy and I think some of you guys were overreacting a bit too much and too harshly.
That being said, Super is not perfect either, as you could have provide us informations on why this card is not played and which stratedy are prevalent in your Cube. If Combo is prevalent, I think that selective discard can help fair decks to compete, more so than early beaters. But maybe it's already midrange decks on the head of the pack and discard is of no use because of the grindyness of the games.
With more information, we can understand your cut, but here, it's like coming on a Thanksgiving Dinner and refuse to eat anything without saying that you're veggie. It can be perceived offensive by some, while it'll be perfectly ok if you explain the context.
Moreover, I think there's no reason to start a fight here. I deeply respect this community and adore the work they put on improving the Cube content for Cube owners. I have no doubt that they're a big part of why my players enjoy my Cube more now than 5 years ago. However, on certain points, I strongly disagree with them, be it about the Power question or the wanted efficiency, where I prioritize the gimmicky stuff, which I and my players found funnier.
Your Cube is yours and, by extension, it belongs a bit to your playgroup, but not a bit to the community.
As always when you ask advices, take the best and try it out. I'd love to see a Cube without discard and see how it goes for everyone. Is the fun police required for everyone to have fun or no ?
Stick to your gun and do things for you and your group, but if that fails, consider asking for help, it's always good to try improving.
Finally, Cube is not a static thing, you can change it whenever you want. I made countless mistakes by trying cards or trying to implement archetypes and ultimately I removed them. I've failed and I'll fail again. But I can go back, so just try it out.
Well, it was a terrible first post, but I just wanna say that "Cube is fun" and "Someone trying something new is pretty interesting if it gives us new data".
Cheers and long live the Cube.
PS : Oh, and just to be on topic, I'll do :
+ Gutterbones
- Necromancy
+ Unburial Rites
- Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (I quite dislike the prevalence of the Walkers in Cube in general)
-1 Strip Mine (colorless mana breaks the deal)
+2 Scuttlegator big simic creature, seems decent. Group likes to do wonky stuff. Adding 2x.
This brings a smile to my face as someone who hates Grave Titan, and cultivates a lower-power environment. I wouldn't play straight vanillas, though. If I wanted a merfolk warrior, I would much rather play Saltwater Stalwart over Coral Commando, and if I wanted an aggressive warrior, I'd rather have something like Labyrinth Guardian. I'd also play Will-o'-the-Wisp or Pontiff of Blight over the crocodile. But do what you're gonna do, and happy cubing!
I want to say I'm more interested in hearing about people's experiences with sweet new cards and less so about cards that have already established themselves as staples, but while we're on the subject of it...
Will-o'-the-Wisp is sweet! A 1-mana Flyer that regenerates cheaply is great. It holds off early pressure while you build up to Nightmare, and can block all the Elder Dragons forever except for Palladia-Mors. Also slapping an Unholy Strength on it or following up with Bad Moon, Will-o'-the-Wisp beats down surprisingly well. Oh, are we not talking about 1994 cube? My bad.
I ain't losing sleep if somebody cuts it from their cube, but I think that's the equivalent of cutting Swords to Plowshares / Lightning Bolt. It's a universal pre-emptive answer to pretty much anything for one mana, plus provides you very valuable information. In the 3-0 archives, it's currently the 5th most represented black card, only behind Mind Twist, Demonic / Vamp Tutor, and Liliana of the Veil.
I'm going to add Biogenic Ooze. Not sure what to take out. Verdurous seems like a common replacement. My cube is below if anyone has advice.
I'm going to add Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem. I'm taking out Ob Nixilis and something else. Again, looking for advice.
I like Gearhulk more than Kalonian Hydra in your list (unless there's an above-normal number of haste effects I'm missing), but I think both are cuttable.
In my own cube I am leaning towards Nekrataal or Mardu strike leader. With adding spawn of mayhem, I am wondering if I can get a cool BWMoat deck going with all the black flyers now. I don't run Najeela, the blade-blossom in red for the warrior theme, but will probably try picking her up soon which gives me another reason to cut Nekrataal.
As for my cut for gutterbones, I am having a hard time deciding what other one drop to cut.
I hate cutting zombies for gravecrawler, but it will probably be Carnophage or Diregraf ghoul. I know this might sound crazy, but unless WOTC gives us more zombies soon that can make the cut, I can see a day coming where black can have a large selection of recursive creatures and gravecrawler won't make the cut because the lack of zombie support.
Ironically enough, posting your list here or especially on CubeTutor might better allow the commenters here to understand how cutting Thoughtseize fits into your particular cube's design. Instead, we have to assess that cut in a vacuum, purely on power level, because you've deliberately chosen not to give us any other information.
This is probably the only part of this section I ever partake in, because it is less about what is in my Cube and more about what I am including and testing for whatever reason. But even that isn't something I really partake in. I avoid this section like the plague more often than not. Which is a shame, Cube is my favorite format and I am pushing 9 years of managing a Cube.
Posting my list isn't going to change how people discuss my card choices (or lack of). One person in my group also has posted his Cube list in here once upon a time and shares my sentiments regarding this Cube Community. He pulled his Cube list and never looked back. That doesn't encourage me to take your bait and post my list in hopes of anything better. Sorry.
Since the idea of thoughtseize not being main deck worthy is so bazaar to me, especially from apparent pro tour caliber players, I'd love to understand "why". The explanations aren't lining up to me. If you could ask your playgroup why they aren't main decking it, and some sample decks it would satisfy my curiosity. Obviously do what you want, but mentioning this in case it interests you.
Also want to apologize for the condescending tone in my posts... I go full robot when analyzing magic cards. It's not personal!
I will gladly ask them why they don't seem to be mainboarding Thoughtseize, because I honestly could not tell you outside of what I see on my spreadsheets and how my players respond to new Cube additions. We don't really discuss cuts other than me just saying what I cut and why I cut it and then I ask if anyone is okay with the cuts. I do this after we have a few testing sessions, because I like to see if anyone notices the cuts before I tell them what I cut. After a handful of sessions, I ask them what they think of the new cards and then go over what I cut. I don't really ever get any pushback on what I cut from the players, only pushback on new cards, in order to determine if I keep it in the Cube or not.
That being said, Super is not perfect either, as you could have provide us informations on why this card is not played and which stratedy are prevalent in your Cube. If Combo is prevalent, I think that selective discard can help fair decks to compete, more so than early beaters. But maybe it's already midrange decks on the head of the pack and discard is of no use because of the grindyness of the games.
With more information, we can understand your cut, but here, it's like coming on a Thanksgiving Dinner and refuse to eat anything without saying that you're veggie. It can be perceived offensive by some, while it'll be perfectly ok if you explain the context.
As stated above, I don't have a reason why it is not being played anymore. Just data showing that it isn't. I don't generally ask people why they stop playing certain cards, I only observe and adjust. Thoughtseize is not the first staple I have cut because people started gravitating away from it, and I am certain it will not be the last. I have played high powered draft formats, and I have played low powered draft formats, and a real gem of information gleaned, is that power is subjective and not contingent on every card being a powerhouse. Removing staple power cards gives room for other things to evolve and grow, and sometimes be much more powerful because of the lack of other power cards. That is the limited format dynamic that applies to any card game: Ascension, Hearthstone, MTG, Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh!.
I do not have a lot of Combo in my Cube. My Cube is modular, so some cards at 360 may seem pretty useless until the 450 add-on is there and all of the sudden you have Splinter Twin Combo enabled. or from 360 to 540 or 360 to 540. My Cube plays out very differently sometimes, but I keep my Combo spread out overall. 360 is most commonly drafted and it is a slug fest more than anything. Is that why people stopped playing Thoughtseize? Maybe. I don't know.
One thing this thread has brought to my attention, is my desire to now know why people stopped playing it. But usually I am really not interested in the why, only that it has stopped seeing play, in which case I cut it and move on.
Overall, I always do cuts during set releases, because they are testing periods for new cards and if new cards don't seem to take, I can roll back my changes guilt free. Just because I cut Thoughtseize now, doesn't mean it is going to stay that way or that it won't come back at some point. In fact, that is why I like the modular Cube. I get to move things from 360 to 450 or 540 as popularity of any card decreases.
Finally, Cube is not a static thing, you can change it whenever you want. I made countless mistakes by trying cards or trying to implement archetypes and ultimately I removed them. I've failed and I'll fail again. But I can go back, so just try it out.
I think this is often forgotten. The more top picks you include, the more static your Cube becomes. The beauty of Cube is the ease in which someone can create their own unique draft format, and I think this community has sincerely lost sight of this, and only remembers it as an afterthought of a series of asinine comments. I have never been interested in having a cookie cutter Cube, and that is why I have never adhered to the ideology that any card is safe in Cube, from a cut. My spreadsheets will tell me what people like and I can experiment with new things based on what people start shying away from as the Cube evolves.
I am not sorry that I am cutting Thoughtseize. Not in the slightest. The card is almost never maindecked anymore and those are the cards I generally look to cut when it starts looking like people just don't want to play it anymore. No point in having dead space in my Cube. Kind of insane that that needs to be justified to people.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I'm trying to understand the reaction here without further antagonising individuals.
Whose comments were asinine (adj: extremely stupid or foolish.)? In what way?
How many people are allowed to disagree or agree with a cut (provided with no list or context whatsoever) before the posters involved become guilty of 'group-think' or 'echo-chamber' or 'inbred discussion'? It would be useful to know this threshold. Is a consensus or agreement of a few people automatically invalidated because it can be labelled 'group-think'?
What are your feelings on a hypothetical forum where the only feedback permitted on cuts/adds/removals is positive, regardless of whether context or even a cardlist was provided?
Superna7ural, your initial cuts/adds list was well-written and interesting, but the following seems like a disproportionate reaction to a few people saying that they like Thoughtseize. Yes, it isn't being played for your group, and no, you don't have to justify it, though I would suggest a forum where adds/cuts aren't ever justified (beyond "cube is my Subjective Personal Environment (TM) so I will do what I want", which can justify literally any conceivable change and ostensibly shield it from critique) would not be much of a useful resource.
An example: there are a few pretty popular cards that are widely played, which we don't play for various reasons (the two Recruiters, Reveillark, Deranged Hermit). I can justify the exclusion of these with a mix of objective and subjective reasoning and then others are free to tell me why the cards in question work well for them or not (and have done so at great length, specifically with respect to 'Lark which has been in and out no less than 4 times). We can then compare lists to form points of reference for the discussion. They are interesting discussions to have, and really the point I post here at all in the first place.
An example: there are a few pretty popular cards that are widely played, which we don't play for various reasons (the two Recruiters, Reveillark, Deranged Hermit).
I thought I was the only one!
As far as this discussion goes, though, I think there has been...aggressive language on both sides, and people are certainly being unnecessarily snide about not playing thoughtseize (look at the 1st post on this page from a throwaway account, for instance). That being said, without a basic idea of what cube is or what a cube is trying to do, it's hard to give feedback about cuts etc.
At the end of the day, cube whatever you want, but if you are having a discussion of what should be in a cube, people will disagree with you if you are far off the average.
I think the thing to remember is that Cube is *not* Standard. Small differences in lists and drafting rules greatly impact card strength. Eg. Worldknit and Sovereign's Realm tremendously change the playability of color-intensive cards, mess with pick orders, and muddy up drafters' expectations of what will wheel and what won't. As another example, Black Lotus is pretty much unplayable trash in a Type 4 cube.
Getting into debates here is only worthwhile insofar as it allows you to see someone else's thought process, explain your own, and maybe even improve your thought process. After all, it's not like you can try every permutation of the tens of thousands of cards in the game with just your playgroup.
Don't get me wrong, nerd-baiting can be fun because some people here have interestingly narrow definitions of "house rules", "fun", and "fair." But that's armchair psychology, not cube design and refinement.
If you think it is disproportionate, then you must have glossed over all the condescending comments thrown my way, or the vehement remarks about the cut, essentially derailing the entire thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I'd probably cut Liliana too. I run Carver and miss Hyppie; I don't miss her. She was way better in theory than in practice.
As for my cut for gutterbones, I am having a hard time deciding what other one drop to cut.
I hate cutting zombies for gravecrawler, but it will probably be Carnophage or Diregraf ghoul.
I cut Scarhide to leave my zombies intact. I've always considered Scarhide a placeholder for a better card anyway. Gutterbones is that better card.
How do people feel about cutting Nekrataal for Spawn of Mayhem in a 450 powered?
-1 Grave Titan
+1 Catacomb Crocodile (my group prefers high toughness creatures in general, grave titan is more of a "winmore" card)
-1 Glen Elendra Archmage
+1 Coral Commando (For blue aggro, synergies with Najeela (warrior). Maybe bit lackluster we'll see)
-1 Strip Mine (colorless mana breaks the deal)
+2 Scuttlegator big simic creature, seems decent. Group likes to do wonky stuff. Adding 2x.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
I dig your thought process, let me know how your testing turns out!
To be fair, there's always some of this present wherever you go. Twitch chat is often like this. The pro SCG-tour camp is like this. Everyone finds a niche, and when they're around other folks that feel similarly about things, you tend to hear a lot of the same ideas. This isn't exclusive to Magic.
But I also think it's a cop-out to blame the end result of a process on things simply being an echo chamber, being "inbred" (as you so respectfully refer to it) or folks just blindly following others' ideas. It ignores the countless hours of testing, the thousands and thousands of drafts and the decades of cube management experience that is here in these forums.
Sometimes folks having shared ideas on here can be the result of shared philosophy. But more often than not, those shared ideas are the results of independently obtained successes and failures that are shared. Maybe we play Thoughtseize because we're victims of an antiquated thinking process and everyone will be cutting it in the future. Or maybe, just maybe, we play Thoughtseize because it's an insane Magic card in this format, and cubing with it is correct for 99.9% of cubes.
If your playgroup doesn't use it, there's no reason to run it. But it's also okay for people to suggest trying a different cut instead, or sharing that they wouldn't do that if it were up to them. Not because they're the victim of some horrible rampant group think, but because they've had years and years of success with it and they're just trying to help.
Cheers, and happy cubing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My cuts would be Patron of the Vein, Sheoldred, Whispering One, and either Kalonian Hydra or Greenwarden of Murasa.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Ironically enough, posting your list here or especially on CubeTutor might better allow the commenters here to understand how cutting Thoughtseize fits into your particular cube's design. Instead, we have to assess that cut in a vacuum, purely on power level, because you've deliberately chosen not to give us any other information.
I agree!
If you took the set of all people who would post something akin to "I'm cutting Thoughtseize", 99% of those people are someone who doesn't understand the card or has limited understanding of magic. 1% might have an eccentric cube (maybe an agro only cube), or a playgroup that likes that wants to do combo shenanigans only. However, people will assume the former, before given information to conclude the latter. I think the former personality profile might benefit from the feedback "cutting thoughtseize is a mistake!".
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I understand what you are saying, and I am on board with "hey if my playgroup never plays it , why bother including it!" reasoning. Ultimately it's about yours and their enjoyment....
But statements like my quote, in conjunction with other things you are saying, raise alarm bells to me that there's more going on here.
Despise is not in the same stratosphere of card that thoughtseize is. It's like saying, cards like lightning bolt and scorching spear have stopped seeing main deck play since 2016.
Since the idea of thoughtseize not being main deck worthy is so bazaar to me, especially from apparent pro tour caliber players, I'd love to understand "why". The explanations aren't lining up to me. If you could ask your playgroup why they aren't main decking it, and some sample decks it would satisfy my curiosity. Obviously do what you want, but mentioning this in case it interests you.
Also want to apologize for the condescending tone in my posts... I go full robot when analyzing magic cards. It's not personal!
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I lurked in this forum for a long time and was extremely interessed with your opinions but never thought I had something interesting to add to your evaluations, so I had no need to create an account and reply to you guys.
Funnily enough, my first post won't be about Magic but about Cube philosophy, and, if I dare say, about the importance of valuing opinions.
I'll start by making a statement which I think everyone here deeply agree with : "Cube is fun".
I think we're mainly Spikes here, so of course, winning is part of fun. But style is also a thing. In my Cube playgroup, we vote at the end of the Cube for the most awesome thing that happened during the session. The winner gets a reward and the title of "Best play of the day" or something along those lines. It's incredibly Casual, but it's a way to show that he show us something awesome and we all love it, because we also love to speak about Magic after.
So, what does it change ? For some, it won't change anything and they'll still play for winning, which is fine, because they have fun this way. For others, sometimes less competitive players, it's a way to draft not only a good deck, but a fun one. Maybe they'll lose some win percentage, but they'll create something awesome that they'll remember !
Winning with Jace and Teferi is nice and stuff, but Cruel Ultimatum your opponent and rebuy it with Eternal Witness, then block with Witness, Cruel again, and do it a third time is way better.
Let's just assume that competitive players who want to try something else than competitive play can prioritize fun, could we ?
With that in mind, what if they don't find it fun to play with Thoughtseize ? What if they prefer to do their own dumb thing and let others do stupid but extremely fun things too ?
Well, if no one of my playgroup find a card fun, I'm urge to cut it out. I deeply understand that the community is dazed by this cut, and as a fan of Thoughtseize, I'm pretty interessed too. But Super said that the card wasn't played by his group, does that mean that they're dumb *******s and we should teach them everything with a condescending tone ? I don't think so. I'd love to have a chat with him about what cards are prefered and in which archetypes (Should I play Thoughtseize in a Pod/Collected Company deck when I can have access to Mesmeric Fiend instead ?).
When in lack in information, misjudgment is easy and I think some of you guys were overreacting a bit too much and too harshly.
That being said, Super is not perfect either, as you could have provide us informations on why this card is not played and which stratedy are prevalent in your Cube. If Combo is prevalent, I think that selective discard can help fair decks to compete, more so than early beaters. But maybe it's already midrange decks on the head of the pack and discard is of no use because of the grindyness of the games.
With more information, we can understand your cut, but here, it's like coming on a Thanksgiving Dinner and refuse to eat anything without saying that you're veggie. It can be perceived offensive by some, while it'll be perfectly ok if you explain the context.
Moreover, I think there's no reason to start a fight here. I deeply respect this community and adore the work they put on improving the Cube content for Cube owners. I have no doubt that they're a big part of why my players enjoy my Cube more now than 5 years ago. However, on certain points, I strongly disagree with them, be it about the Power question or the wanted efficiency, where I prioritize the gimmicky stuff, which I and my players found funnier.
Your Cube is yours and, by extension, it belongs a bit to your playgroup, but not a bit to the community.
As always when you ask advices, take the best and try it out. I'd love to see a Cube without discard and see how it goes for everyone. Is the fun police required for everyone to have fun or no ?
Stick to your gun and do things for you and your group, but if that fails, consider asking for help, it's always good to try improving.
Finally, Cube is not a static thing, you can change it whenever you want. I made countless mistakes by trying cards or trying to implement archetypes and ultimately I removed them. I've failed and I'll fail again. But I can go back, so just try it out.
Well, it was a terrible first post, but I just wanna say that "Cube is fun" and "Someone trying something new is pretty interesting if it gives us new data".
Cheers and long live the Cube.
PS : Oh, and just to be on topic, I'll do :
+ Gutterbones
- Necromancy
+ Unburial Rites
- Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (I quite dislike the prevalence of the Walkers in Cube in general)
+ Spawn of Mayhem
- Kalitas, Traitor of Geth
+ Prime Speaker Vannifar
- Trygon Predator
My Cube (Unpowered) list if needed : http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/31672
Give a try to Sphinx's Tutelage, card is busted in Cube
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/articles-podcasts-and-guides/804289-set-p-review-my-top-20-ravnica-allegiance-cards
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This brings a smile to my face as someone who hates Grave Titan, and cultivates a lower-power environment. I wouldn't play straight vanillas, though. If I wanted a merfolk warrior, I would much rather play Saltwater Stalwart over Coral Commando, and if I wanted an aggressive warrior, I'd rather have something like Labyrinth Guardian. I'd also play Will-o'-the-Wisp or Pontiff of Blight over the crocodile. But do what you're gonna do, and happy cubing!
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Will-o'-the-Wisp is sweet! A 1-mana Flyer that regenerates cheaply is great. It holds off early pressure while you build up to Nightmare, and can block all the Elder Dragons forever except for Palladia-Mors. Also slapping an Unholy Strength on it or following up with Bad Moon, Will-o'-the-Wisp beats down surprisingly well. Oh, are we not talking about 1994 cube? My bad.
Seriously though, this Thoughtseize discussion is
[180 classic cube]
I ain't losing sleep if somebody cuts it from their cube, but I think that's the equivalent of cutting Swords to Plowshares / Lightning Bolt. It's a universal pre-emptive answer to pretty much anything for one mana, plus provides you very valuable information. In the 3-0 archives, it's currently the 5th most represented black card, only behind Mind Twist, Demonic / Vamp Tutor, and Liliana of the Veil.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I like Gearhulk more than Kalonian Hydra in your list (unless there's an above-normal number of haste effects I'm missing), but I think both are cuttable.
Also, wow this thread took a turn.
Anyway, here's my includes -
gutterbones for asylum visitor
spawn of mayhem for either flesh carver or hypnotic specter
light up the stage for either collective defiance or smash to smithereens
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
In my own cube I am leaning towards Nekrataal or Mardu strike leader. With adding spawn of mayhem, I am wondering if I can get a cool BW Moat deck going with all the black flyers now. I don't run Najeela, the blade-blossom in red for the warrior theme, but will probably try picking her up soon which gives me another reason to cut Nekrataal.
As for my cut for gutterbones, I am having a hard time deciding what other one drop to cut.
I hate cutting zombies for gravecrawler, but it will probably be Carnophage or Diregraf ghoul. I know this might sound crazy, but unless WOTC gives us more zombies soon that can make the cut, I can see a day coming where black can have a large selection of recursive creatures and gravecrawler won't make the cut because the lack of zombie support.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
As for flesh carver, it's one of those cards that seems really good on paper but just never seems to be that good in play.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
This is probably the only part of this section I ever partake in, because it is less about what is in my Cube and more about what I am including and testing for whatever reason. But even that isn't something I really partake in. I avoid this section like the plague more often than not. Which is a shame, Cube is my favorite format and I am pushing 9 years of managing a Cube.
Posting my list isn't going to change how people discuss my card choices (or lack of). One person in my group also has posted his Cube list in here once upon a time and shares my sentiments regarding this Cube Community. He pulled his Cube list and never looked back. That doesn't encourage me to take your bait and post my list in hopes of anything better. Sorry.
I will gladly ask them why they don't seem to be mainboarding Thoughtseize, because I honestly could not tell you outside of what I see on my spreadsheets and how my players respond to new Cube additions. We don't really discuss cuts other than me just saying what I cut and why I cut it and then I ask if anyone is okay with the cuts. I do this after we have a few testing sessions, because I like to see if anyone notices the cuts before I tell them what I cut. After a handful of sessions, I ask them what they think of the new cards and then go over what I cut. I don't really ever get any pushback on what I cut from the players, only pushback on new cards, in order to determine if I keep it in the Cube or not.
As stated above, I don't have a reason why it is not being played anymore. Just data showing that it isn't. I don't generally ask people why they stop playing certain cards, I only observe and adjust. Thoughtseize is not the first staple I have cut because people started gravitating away from it, and I am certain it will not be the last. I have played high powered draft formats, and I have played low powered draft formats, and a real gem of information gleaned, is that power is subjective and not contingent on every card being a powerhouse. Removing staple power cards gives room for other things to evolve and grow, and sometimes be much more powerful because of the lack of other power cards. That is the limited format dynamic that applies to any card game: Ascension, Hearthstone, MTG, Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh!.
I do not have a lot of Combo in my Cube. My Cube is modular, so some cards at 360 may seem pretty useless until the 450 add-on is there and all of the sudden you have Splinter Twin Combo enabled. or from 360 to 540 or 360 to 540. My Cube plays out very differently sometimes, but I keep my Combo spread out overall. 360 is most commonly drafted and it is a slug fest more than anything. Is that why people stopped playing Thoughtseize? Maybe. I don't know.
One thing this thread has brought to my attention, is my desire to now know why people stopped playing it. But usually I am really not interested in the why, only that it has stopped seeing play, in which case I cut it and move on.
Overall, I always do cuts during set releases, because they are testing periods for new cards and if new cards don't seem to take, I can roll back my changes guilt free. Just because I cut Thoughtseize now, doesn't mean it is going to stay that way or that it won't come back at some point. In fact, that is why I like the modular Cube. I get to move things from 360 to 450 or 540 as popularity of any card decreases.
I think this is often forgotten. The more top picks you include, the more static your Cube becomes. The beauty of Cube is the ease in which someone can create their own unique draft format, and I think this community has sincerely lost sight of this, and only remembers it as an afterthought of a series of asinine comments. I have never been interested in having a cookie cutter Cube, and that is why I have never adhered to the ideology that any card is safe in Cube, from a cut. My spreadsheets will tell me what people like and I can experiment with new things based on what people start shying away from as the Cube evolves.
I am not sorry that I am cutting Thoughtseize. Not in the slightest. The card is almost never maindecked anymore and those are the cards I generally look to cut when it starts looking like people just don't want to play it anymore. No point in having dead space in my Cube. Kind of insane that that needs to be justified to people.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Superna7ural, your initial cuts/adds list was well-written and interesting, but the following seems like a disproportionate reaction to a few people saying that they like Thoughtseize. Yes, it isn't being played for your group, and no, you don't have to justify it, though I would suggest a forum where adds/cuts aren't ever justified (beyond "cube is my Subjective Personal Environment (TM) so I will do what I want", which can justify literally any conceivable change and ostensibly shield it from critique) would not be much of a useful resource.
An example: there are a few pretty popular cards that are widely played, which we don't play for various reasons (the two Recruiters, Reveillark, Deranged Hermit). I can justify the exclusion of these with a mix of objective and subjective reasoning and then others are free to tell me why the cards in question work well for them or not (and have done so at great length, specifically with respect to 'Lark which has been in and out no less than 4 times). We can then compare lists to form points of reference for the discussion. They are interesting discussions to have, and really the point I post here at all in the first place.
Happy cubing.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I thought I was the only one!
As far as this discussion goes, though, I think there has been...aggressive language on both sides, and people are certainly being unnecessarily snide about not playing thoughtseize (look at the 1st post on this page from a throwaway account, for instance). That being said, without a basic idea of what cube is or what a cube is trying to do, it's hard to give feedback about cuts etc.
At the end of the day, cube whatever you want, but if you are having a discussion of what should be in a cube, people will disagree with you if you are far off the average.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Getting into debates here is only worthwhile insofar as it allows you to see someone else's thought process, explain your own, and maybe even improve your thought process. After all, it's not like you can try every permutation of the tens of thousands of cards in the game with just your playgroup.
Don't get me wrong, nerd-baiting can be fun because some people here have interestingly narrow definitions of "house rules", "fun", and "fair." But that's armchair psychology, not cube design and refinement.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
I'd probably cut Liliana too. I run Carver and miss Hyppie; I don't miss her. She was way better in theory than in practice.
I cut Scarhide to leave my zombies intact. I've always considered Scarhide a placeholder for a better card anyway. Gutterbones is that better card.
How do people feel about cutting Nekrataal for Spawn of Mayhem in a 450 powered?
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I am making the same cut for my 360 unpowered