Think this card is definitely cube worthy... Good enough to build a deck around, but similar to other miracles, power depends a lot on the number of enablers a deck has.
a) Every dedicated reanimator deck would play it. A 5 mana reanimation spell doesn't quite make the cut by itself.. But add in late game scalablility and a random cheap miracle activation.. While not exciting, I can't imagine ever cutting it.
b) It's upside in a deck built entirely around it, is insane. Imagine a deck with brainstorm + vampiric tutor + mystical tutor, multiple discard outlets and multiple fatties. Semi-consistently powering out 2 huge fatties on turn 4 is extremely powerful.
Cards with a playable floor and a very high upside when built around are my favourite type of cube card.
Knowing what size of cube the card fits is a bit tricky and depends on the amount of support you want to dedicate to reanimator.
I wouldn't include it over any of the tier 2 cheaper reanimation spells (Exhume/Dance of the dead) because those decks need a critical # of cheap reanimation spells. Liliana death majesty has proven to be formiddable in decks without much reanimation, so I wouldn't cut her. Living death fills a similar space as entreat the dead (but also provides some redundancy to a strategy of reanimating multiple fatties)...
I think I like it more than any cards in the next tier, Unburial rites, Diabolic servitude, Makeshift mannequin, dread return... Again, without ways to put Entreat on top of the library, I think it's comparable if not a smidgum worse than these cards. But in an optimal deck, one that is not THAT hard to assemble given the color it's in, I think it's much better.
One thing I don't like about the card is the play patterns that it encourages.. "in case" you draw it to miracle it, it encourages you putting the fatties into the graveyard pre-emptively. This exposes the creatures to the opponents reanimation spells and graveyard hate. It also means it's harder to tutor for a creature that best suits the situation you are facing on the battlefield.
Though, I can't stress enough how easy it is to underestimate value of mana sinks, and how the reanimation has no downsides.. No enchantment to target, no life loss, opponent doesn't bring back any of their creatures etc.
If miracles at 5 mana, even if you don't have multiple fatties in the yard, bringing back say a mull drifter , a jace vryn's prodigy and a glen elendra is still pretty busted for it's cost.
Nice write up LucidVision. Miracles in general haven't really worked out well for me, but we've also never seen a miracle that directly supports a core archetype. 5 cmc is a TERRIBLE floor, however in practice you are often willing to spend that much mana to reanimate your beatstick midgame. Also, 7 cmc for a double reanimate effect is far from the worst play ever and could be a big late game effect for slower midrange and control decks.
All that said, my gut tells me you are overestimating how often miracle will go off and underestimating how rough the floor is. Also, this only hit's your graveyard which is another knock against it IMO.
I think this is probably a pass for me but I'm open to having my mind changed.
Nice write up LucidVision. Miracles in general haven't really worked out well for me, but we've also never seen a miracle that directly supports a core archetype. 5 cmc is a TERRIBLE floor, however in practice you are often willing to spend that much mana to reanimate your beatstick midgame. Also, 7 cmc for a double reanimate effect is far from the worst play ever and could be a big late game effect for slower midrange and control decks.
Exactly. 5 cmc is a terrible floor relative to other reanimation spells available for cube, but most reanimator decks would still play a 5 mana reanimation spell over their 23rd playable. Consistency and redundency is a big deal for these decks. Paying 5 mana for griselbrand is still a powerful play
All other miracle cards true floors are much worse. 5 mana make 1 4/4 angel? 6 mana wrath? 7 mana time walk? 3 mana 1 damage to all opponents creatures? There isn't a single cube deck I would play any of those cards in. Entreat and bonfire are scalable, so can maybe see play in big mana decks, but still, if you eliminated their miracle mode, those cards would be still effectively unplayable. My cube supports miracles with extra support, and NONE of these cards make main decks if there aren't anyway to manipulate the library.
... and this is the floor.
If cards like brainstorm, vampiric tutor, imperial seal ,sensei's divining top, mystical tutor, jace the mind sculptor, scroll rack, weren't ubiquitous in cubes, I wouldn't be cubing the card.
Interesting card. I've been wanting another cmc3 reanimation effect for a while, and while this isn't it, it can slot into where I was going to place that card. I'm already supporting Miracles with Terminus and Bonfire of the Damned. I could definitely see this working for me.
I'm not as high on this as Lucid Vision. As a value reanimation spell, I agree with his assessment. But as a reanimation spell for a dedicated reanimator deck, I think it's lacking. The floor is too bad and the ceiling has timing/targeting issues that hurt it. I don't think this is a very good card in this format.
I don’t think it looks good enough on paper, but I hope others try it and give input, because the with the number of “topdeck” tutors, this could certainly have potential. The only issue is that once you pass the second fattie, the rest don’t feally matter all to much, and even the first will often win games by itself, so reanimating a bunch of stuff isn’t always really that useful for the drawback of being so inconsistent.
I am a not a huge fan, since the baseline 2BBB to reanimate something is so rough. X2B would be a bit more palatable. It's also not like Bonfire where you can pretty much always play it off the top deck with good results. Reanimator, especially for >1 creature, requires a degree of set up.
I kinda like this card, but it doesn't jump out at me as something that I'd want to cut anything for. While I agree with LucidVision that it seems great as a "value reanimation" spell, I don't think that's the lens that most of my cube drafters would assess this from. A player in reanimator might consider this, and would be wholly underwhelmed by the lower floor in that deck. A player not in reanimator is not likely to pick this up, since it'll be perceived mostly as a reanimator card. If somehow no one's in reanimator, or it's the last card in a player's colors in that pack, they might take it.
If I was considering increasing the size of my cube, I'd consider it, but I'm not looking to do so at this time. Interested to hear others' experiences with it though - while the value reanimation mode seems interesting, I guess I don't trust my drafters enough to assess this spell differently than other reanimator cards.
Also, I don't run Dance of the Dead currently (I've been testing Phyrexian Scriptures, which has actually been fun, if not sort of inconsistent), so that should probably come back in before this anyways.
This card seems neat but I think it's ultimately gonna be hamstrung by the BBB in its hardcasting cost. Too color-restrictive for lots of the decks that would conceivably want it IMO.
It's also not like Bonfire where you can pretty much always play it off the top deck with good results. Reanimator, especially for >1 creature, requires a degree of set up.
Yeah, this is what I'm afraid will be it's downfall. (if it ends up sucking)
I think the bigger issue is the speed. At its earliest (if I can get a fatty into my graveyard and I can support the BB cost in time) I'm looking at turn four. I'm just not going to play a card with that low of a floor in my dedicated reanimator shell.
Well, 6 years later and in a casual set... ******* brilliant, Wizards.
WOTC:
Hey guys, let's make some good black cards today.
Ok, what format?
Standard.
Ok, no.
Let's make some garbage that nobody will play. Also, let's make standard black cards have negative card advantage.
Oooh, nobody will play black.
Exactly.
Let's make some good black cards for C18. OK LOL!!!
I think the bigger issue is the speed. At its earliest (if I can get a fatty into my graveyard and I can support the BB cost in time) I'm looking at turn four. I'm just not going to play a card with that low of a floor in my dedicated reanimator shell.
? The earliest it can reanimate is turn 3? (barring fast mana/ritual shenanagins).
Fwiw, 8 of us rented a cabin out on the island for the weekend planning an ultimate cube marathon. Should have extensive testing on all these cards by monday, I'll write my findings up.. I have cooled a bit on this card fwiw, but will see how it goes!
^Only if you play your 3rd land before drawing a card turn 3.
I like the potential upside, and I see the appeal of Miracles from a memorable gameplay perspective, but there are a lot of things that have to happen exactly right for this to be better than the normal suite of reanimation spells - and that suite is already several times longer than the number of slots I'm willing to allocate.
I think the bigger issue is the speed. At its earliest (if I can get a fatty into my graveyard and I can support the BB cost in time) I'm looking at turn four. I'm just not going to play a card with that low of a floor in my dedicated reanimator shell.
? The earliest it can reanimate is turn 3? (barring fast mana/ritual shenanagins).
You won't have 3 lands during your draw step until the 4th turn.
Compares unfavorably to Unburial Rites and Eldrich Reborn both of which are fun but weren't good enough. And I ran miracles in my cube for a looooonnnnggg time, this is not as good as Entreat, Bonfire, or Terminus so if you are not running those skip this.
I think the bigger issue is the speed. At its earliest (if I can get a fatty into my graveyard and I can support the BB cost in time) I'm looking at turn four. I'm just not going to play a card with that low of a floor in my dedicated reanimator shell.
? The earliest it can reanimate is turn 3? (barring fast mana/ritual shenanagins).
You won't have 3 lands during your draw step until the 4th turn.
I totally glossed over this, large oversight.
It effectively tacks an extra mana onto the card I was imagining (assuming you don’t have another play with your other mana).
Think the card is pretty bad now, hope I didn’t persuade anyone with my long posts lol.
Entreat the Dead XXBBB
Sorcery (R)
Miracle XBB
Return X target creature cards from your graveyard to the battlefield.
The floor is super bad, but the miracle mode is pretty insane. I'm leaning towards a pass, but it's definitely worth a thread to discuss it.
a) Every dedicated reanimator deck would play it. A 5 mana reanimation spell doesn't quite make the cut by itself.. But add in late game scalablility and a random cheap miracle activation.. While not exciting, I can't imagine ever cutting it.
b) It's upside in a deck built entirely around it, is insane. Imagine a deck with brainstorm + vampiric tutor + mystical tutor, multiple discard outlets and multiple fatties. Semi-consistently powering out 2 huge fatties on turn 4 is extremely powerful.
Cards with a playable floor and a very high upside when built around are my favourite type of cube card.
Knowing what size of cube the card fits is a bit tricky and depends on the amount of support you want to dedicate to reanimator.
I wouldn't include it over any of the tier 2 cheaper reanimation spells (Exhume/Dance of the dead) because those decks need a critical # of cheap reanimation spells. Liliana death majesty has proven to be formiddable in decks without much reanimation, so I wouldn't cut her. Living death fills a similar space as entreat the dead (but also provides some redundancy to a strategy of reanimating multiple fatties)...
I think I like it more than any cards in the next tier, Unburial rites, Diabolic servitude, Makeshift mannequin, dread return... Again, without ways to put Entreat on top of the library, I think it's comparable if not a smidgum worse than these cards. But in an optimal deck, one that is not THAT hard to assemble given the color it's in, I think it's much better.
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Though, I can't stress enough how easy it is to underestimate value of mana sinks, and how the reanimation has no downsides.. No enchantment to target, no life loss, opponent doesn't bring back any of their creatures etc.
If miracles at 5 mana, even if you don't have multiple fatties in the yard, bringing back say a mull drifter , a jace vryn's prodigy and a glen elendra is still pretty busted for it's cost.
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All that said, my gut tells me you are overestimating how often miracle will go off and underestimating how rough the floor is. Also, this only hit's your graveyard which is another knock against it IMO.
I think this is probably a pass for me but I'm open to having my mind changed.
Exactly. 5 cmc is a terrible floor relative to other reanimation spells available for cube, but most reanimator decks would still play a 5 mana reanimation spell over their 23rd playable. Consistency and redundency is a big deal for these decks. Paying 5 mana for griselbrand is still a powerful play
All other miracle cards true floors are much worse. 5 mana make 1 4/4 angel? 6 mana wrath? 7 mana time walk? 3 mana 1 damage to all opponents creatures? There isn't a single cube deck I would play any of those cards in. Entreat and bonfire are scalable, so can maybe see play in big mana decks, but still, if you eliminated their miracle mode, those cards would be still effectively unplayable. My cube supports miracles with extra support, and NONE of these cards make main decks if there aren't anyway to manipulate the library.
... and this is the floor.
If cards like brainstorm, vampiric tutor, imperial seal ,sensei's divining top, mystical tutor, jace the mind sculptor, scroll rack, weren't ubiquitous in cubes, I wouldn't be cubing the card.
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If I was considering increasing the size of my cube, I'd consider it, but I'm not looking to do so at this time. Interested to hear others' experiences with it though - while the value reanimation mode seems interesting, I guess I don't trust my drafters enough to assess this spell differently than other reanimator cards.
Also, I don't run Dance of the Dead currently (I've been testing Phyrexian Scriptures, which has actually been fun, if not sort of inconsistent), so that should probably come back in before this anyways.
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Yeah, this is what I'm afraid will be it's downfall. (if it ends up sucking)
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WOTC:
Hey guys, let's make some good black cards today.
Ok, what format?
Standard.
Ok, no.
Let's make some garbage that nobody will play. Also, let's make standard black cards have negative card advantage.
Oooh, nobody will play black.
Exactly.
Let's make some good black cards for C18. OK LOL!!!
? The earliest it can reanimate is turn 3? (barring fast mana/ritual shenanagins).
Fwiw, 8 of us rented a cabin out on the island for the weekend planning an ultimate cube marathon. Should have extensive testing on all these cards by monday, I'll write my findings up.. I have cooled a bit on this card fwiw, but will see how it goes!
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I like the potential upside, and I see the appeal of Miracles from a memorable gameplay perspective, but there are a lot of things that have to happen exactly right for this to be better than the normal suite of reanimation spells - and that suite is already several times longer than the number of slots I'm willing to allocate.
You won't have 3 lands during your draw step until the 4th turn.
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I totally glossed over this, large oversight.
It effectively tacks an extra mana onto the card I was imagining (assuming you don’t have another play with your other mana).
Think the card is pretty bad now, hope I didn’t persuade anyone with my long posts lol.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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