You are so wrong about the creature clause mattering.
-black can recur creatures EASY (reuse this guy easier than duress)
-black can kill creatures EASY (you don't need the creature clause)
What's not to like that its a duress for 1 more mana as a 1/2 flyer... When your turn 1 play should be Inquisition anyway.
There's an enormous difference between something being on-color and something being "EASY"
Eh, I always felt that was an overstated part of Fiend/Sculler's value. If I wanted to play Castigate, I'd play Castigate. There's value in having the creature in play and forcing your opponent to spend removal on a 2-drop.
Probably right... I've played a LOT of Tidehollow sculler through the years in multiple formats, and find the value of getting extra time to beat down with it by taking their only removal spell is relevant. Almost all the removal in modern is instant speed, so it's more relevant there.
Less relevant on a 1 powered creature too...
The strength of fiend isn't that it's a *good* creature, but just that it's a creature. That strength is because it can hit anything and you can recur it/do baseline 'creature things' with it. Say whatever you want about your duresses and how great black is at always having the right discard/kill spell, but missing off of fiend would be unacceptable, and that will happen with this card. Not 'maybe', not 'probably', but due to the nature of the game's variance Kitesail Freebooter will have times where you miss and that is god awful. And to tack on that abyssmal floor for flying and +1 toughness is asking a lot.
Wanted to mention a complex idea that a few readers of these posts maybe haven't thought of.
The extent to which Kitesail "missing" matters, is related to the effect "missing" has on the likelyhood of you winning the game. If they have a bad hand and you fail to take a card from it, you are still very likely to win the game.
99% of the time there is no creature spell that is as close to devastating as a natural order or a tinker, a jitte, or a piece of power. Occasionally, seeing an all creature hand with Kitesail will be a GOOD thing and you missing will have little impact on the outcome of the game... When their hand is worse than average, there is a higher than average chance you will miss, in those scenarios, being down a portion of a card matters less.
Absolutely, there will be times where taking a creature instead of a spell (or nothing) is correct, and impactful... How often that happens, and how impactful it is (on average) is super relevant... I think that is where our disagreement lies.
If "missing" happens say 20% of the time... that has to be weighed against the difference between a 1/1 ground creature and a 1/2 flyer, 100% of the time. My intuition (based on hundreds of games with mesmeric fiend), is that the upgraded body of kitesail would make a small but noticeable difference the majority of games you cast it... and the high frequency of this, offsets occasionally "missing"... especially when a subset of those "misses" won't be that impactful.
*When I say "missing", I mean anything from taking a suboptimal card to having no targets to select from a hand containing a creature*
A third toughness would've gone a LONG way for this guy. The difference between 1 and 2 toughness isn't too huge compared to the difference between 2 and 3, at least in cube. There's very little removal that kills an X/1 but misses an X/2, and there are a decent amount of creatures that have < 3 power. I would also definitely play this if it was a 2/1.
I agree... But that doesn't make 2 toughness insignificant.
Requiring rolling earthquake to be cast for 3 instead of 2, bonfire for 5 instead of 3, Jitte to use 2 counters instead of 1, not being killed by liliana the last hope +1, 2 walking ballista counters instead of 1.
I'd say the most significant would be being able to block 1/1 tokens and elves... This guy can single handedly brick wall a lingering souls/bitterblossom/spectral procession.
But the difference is pretty small. Far smaller than say, not being able to hit creatures with the discard effect. Which is a ginormous difference between this effect and that of Fiend/Maggot.
But the difference is pretty small. Far smaller than say, not being able to hit creatures with the discard effect. Which is a ginormous difference between this effect and that of Fiend/Maggot.
Well, the flying is more important than the extra toughness, but they both matter.
When exiling creatures matters, it will be more powerful than the extra toughness + flying, but my point is , it's going to matter much less frequent than getting in an extra couple points of damage, or blocking a lingering souls, pecking at a planeswalker, carrying equipment etc.
(see long winded argument two posts above why).
Making the overall value of the better body higher than might be obvious when comparing the differences between the two abilities.
Simplifying it a bit,
I believe the frequent, small increase in output of the body, will make up for the infrequent, large decrease in output of the ability.
Understandable to disagree with that, very tough to estimate precisely without a lot of play experience.. also very format dependent.
Well ya. I heard what you said, I just don't agree with it. If the change to the body was significant (a 2nd power or a 3rd toughness) I think it would be worth losing the huge pool of targets to acquire it. But the body isn't good. I'm paying for the effect. And that effect is much worse.
Like, I don't think this card is bad, but I think it should only really go in if you're maxed-out on the disruptive 2cc beaters, and are already playing the Fiend/Maggot variants that have a far broader pool of targets to choose from.
Black has discard, destroy target creature, board wipes, -1/-1 stuff, sacrifice, hell even deathtouch... take your pick. I want to see your black deck that doesn't have at least 2 forms of these.
You want to use this in a non-black deck? Which should be blue. Go ahead, its color-friendly.
Nah dude, Thalia's non-creature clause isn't a thing.
Black has discard, destroy target creature, board wipes, -1/-1 stuff, sacrifice, hell even deathtouch... take your pick. I want to see your black deck that doesn't have at least 2 forms of these.
You want to use this in a non-black deck? Which should be blue. Go ahead, its color-friendly.
Nah dude, Thalia's non-creature clause isn't a thing.
Again, yes your black deck will have t1 discard and the removal and all that jazz a percentage of games, and some black decks will have more of that effect and will more consistently hit the mile markers you're setting, but it's also not always going to have those kill spells or the right ones or enough of them, and magic is still a game of variance. Magic isn't chess, what happens in the future is often dictated by what are essentially random draws. Add in more than 1 player choosing black in an 8 man (or less) and you have two decks that need discard/kill spells, and both of those decks can't be expected to always have the cards you're seemingly implying they will always have.
Like, are you really saying this card is going to hit 100% of the time, or hit the best target of all the nonland cards 100% of the time, or that you will always have answers to the creatures in a game of magic? Genuinely curious if that's your implication. If you are, that's wrong for a ton of reasons since we're playing a card game that relies on draws and variance, and if you aren't then we have to agree to disagree about how much a lesser number of discard targets for +1 toughness and flying will affect this card and that's fine.
What people jere is simply saying is that the flying will matter because Fiend/Maggot variant aren't that made of, cube speak of course, to abuse their ETB trigger. It's not like you were looking at a bounce effect, kill effect or draw effet... You're picking a card from their hand man. Even if you recurre/blink it several times, you'll be limited to the number of cards in your oppponent's hand. So for that reason, being a creature that is reccurable/blinkable is not the main upside of those Thoutghseize dudes. Their main purpose is to be a creature that can attack, and most of the time with equipment pieces. If you have played a lot of MTGO cube games, you would normally have seen that fact tons of time.
Are you assuming we're doing a draft? I have never done one ever. I'm sure it's fun for a lot of people, but I'd rather just buy cards I'm looking for. I play modern for the unbroken, cheaper card pool for a longer duration. You build a deck to mitigate variance. That's why aggro decks don't win past turn 6.
Regardless if it hits or not, I know the next thing I play is safe... That's your downside!
Would you pay 1 mana for a 1/2 flyer? Probably not, but it nonetheless is above curve. And Duress has been used for a long, long time. In fact they just remade it... AGAIN.
Don't underestimate Gitaxian Probe. It's obviously not the same. Still, Free Information got the ban stamp. Information on opponent's hand is good dude, even in a game of variance. Read a book.
Warned for unnecessary "read a book" comment at the end. - Steveman
Are you assuming we're doing a draft? I have never done one ever. I'm sure it's fun for a lot of people, but I'd rather just buy cards I'm looking for. I play modern for the unbroken, cheaper card pool for a longer duration.
Are you assuming we're doing a draft? I have never done one ever. I'm sure it's fun for a lot of people, but I'd rather just buy cards I'm looking for. I play modern for the unbroken, cheaper card pool for a longer duration. You build a deck to mitigate variance. That's why aggro decks don't win past turn 6.
Regardless if it hits or not, I know the next thing I play is safe... That's your downside! Not to mention the evasive body that can eat tokens. Go ahead and plop down your 'creature that kill creatures' variance, or creatures that kill whatever.
Would you pay 1 mana for a 1/2 flyer? Probably not, but it nonetheless is above curve. And Duress has been used for a long, long time. In fact they just remade it... AGAIN.
Don't underestimate Gitaxian Probe. It's obviously not the same. Still, Free Information got the ban stamp. Information on opponent's hand is good dude, even in a game of variance. Read a book.
Dawg you're in the cube forum lol
Also: no need to be rude. We're talking with you without personally insulting you ('Read a book'? Come on, that's bush league) and it's not a lot to ask the same of you, even if you think I'm an idiot because you didn't know where you were posting. No place for any of that ***** here, thanks
What people jere is simply saying is that the flying will matter because Fiend/Maggot variant aren't that made of, cube speak of course, to abuse their ETB trigger. It's not like you were looking at a bounce effect, kill effect or draw effet... You're picking a card from their hand man. Even if you recurre/blink it several times, you'll be limited to the number of cards in your oppponent's hand. So for that reason, being a creature that is reccurable/blinkable is not the main upside of those Thoutghseize dudes. Their main purpose is to be a creature that can attack, and most of the time with equipment pieces. If you have played a lot of MTGO cube games, you would normally have seen that fact tons of time.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Their main purpose is non-conditional hand disruption IMO/E, and I don't think a 1/2 flier is enough to justify missing on creatures. You do, difference in ideology, no problem there but arguing experience is useless since my side is 'I think this is the most important part in my experience' and yours is 'it's less relevant if it's a 1/2 flier', and while I disagree with that there's no point in just re-phrasing what we've been saying. Like, how are you going to argue what I've seen from my eyes? And how can I further argue the opposite without just saying what I've been saying? We're getting to the silly point where we aren't saying much that we haven't already.
Because cube is drafting so it's assumed you're doing a draft when discussing cards here. Your posts implied you don't understand that. We don't discuss modern or any constructed formats when evaluating cards except as asides and tangents; cards are only 'good' or 'bad' in a cube context here. Are we on the same page about where you're posting? Is that the confusion?
Also, assuming that 'miss' means 'Now I know my next play is safe' is not something I agree with, but its OK to agree to disagree.
And, it's a bit more relevant than talking about it's application in modern, especially since your points here seem to stem from 'building a deck to mitigate variance' (cube is a limited format, not constructed) and your affinity for constructed and lack of experience with limited, which is what this forum pretty much exclusively discusses, specifically with cube in mind.
Hit: The card can hurt them: remove a non-creature
Miss: Now I know my next play is safe
Gitaxian Probe was banned because it's most prominent use was free information as a setup to a Storm deck?
What relevance does "this is a cube thread" have to points brought up. It doesn't.
Literally every other person in this thread -- in this entire subforum -- is looking at the card in Cube context. Thinking about this card in modern is interesting in theory, but right now your posts are wildly useless and a waste of time for everyone else.
Then maybe u should compare it to actual cube cards. And Not having a discussion about how it relates to fiend and maggot. Quite frankly putting a non-cube card in a cube discussion makes it kind of ironic that you call me useless. And furthermore it shouldn't even be called cube.
Then maybe u should compare it to actual cube cards. And Not having a discussion about how it relates to fiend and maggot. Quite frankly putting a non-cube card in a cube discussion makes it kind of ironic that you call me useless. And furthermore it shouldn't even be called cube.
Quite frankly you've been off since your first post here, and now that you know where you're posting it seems like you're trolling or just being a straight up ******** for no reason, or rather you're being an ******** because you think we're all idiots that don't know what we're talking about. It's really old, and is frankly not welcome here.
Based on his last post, he clearly still doesn't understand what a cube is (or he is trolling). He thinks "cube" is interchangeable with "draft".
If you really don't know what cube is, the answer is that is it a set of cards (usually 360, 540, 630 are the common numbers) that someone puts together from all of the available mtg cards into a draftable environment. Do you play MTGO and have you heard of/seen the vintage/legacy/holiday cube? Those are draft sets with specific cards in them from all of the available magic sets. What we are discussing here is whether or not we should include this new card into one of these cube sets based on its power level, which would point us to other cards that are similar to it to make comparison (mesmeric fiend/brain maggot). Educate yourself before you start randomly flaming other people in the forum DEDICATED TO THE TOPIC AT HAND (Cube Draft)
If you are just trolling, then go away, you're not welcome here.
No I know what cube is. Take the 100 best cards of each color, put them into boosters, and do a draft. Considering Mesmeric Fiend is nowhere near the top 100 or whatever, comparing to this new card that has relatively similar value is... pointless. Whoh!!!!
And to be frank, commander, cube, and formats with 1-of means you end up with less playable decks that all look the same. Its a joke of a format and only came about because someone wanted to blow 10 grand on cards.
Assuming that I haven't played anything but modern is incredibly ignorant just because I like modern most. I have made some pretty mean legacy decks after starting in vintage. In fact one of them wins almost every FFA. And it's based on the other best counterspell in the game not named FoW... Cancel hahahaha
Do I have input on what and when to draft? Nope, but I can certainly have input on how good a card is based on playing plenty of magic games. I can certainly say a cube forum topic about a card designed for standard or modern is outrageous. This card would be drafted last in every pack!!
When you insinuate that knowing what your opponent has in hand is worthless, you lose all credibility to me. Yea dude, I'm flaming/trolling/worthless? Look in the mirror.
Its a pretty simple silly debate you narrow-minded fools are having:
Fiend is better against aggro
New guy is better everywhere else.
And yes it is amazingly stupid to have a debate on this card in cube. It's not worthy of cube. So what are we actually discussing here? If the card is good... in what format? Topic should be moved away from cube to another forum... like you know, standard. Calling someone dumb for talking about its relevance where its actually relevant is hilarious and incredibly dense. Fiend got a reprint because its a good balanced card that was phased out even in modern.
AND PS: Grixis Shadow gets stomped by Maverick, even without GSZ or MoR.
No I know what cube is. Take the 100 best cards of each color, put them into boosters, and do a draft. Considering Mesmeric Fiend is nowhere near the top 100 or whatever, comparing to this new card that has relatively similar value is... pointless. Whoh!!!!
What you posted here clearly showed that you didn't know what the cube format was/had valuable input into it
And to be frank, commander, cube, and formats with 1-of means you end up with less playable decks that all look the same. Its a joke of a format and only came about because someone wanted to blow 10 grand on cards.
If you don't like the format, then just leave. You aren't forced to be here on this sub forum dedicated to the cube format
Do I have input on what and when to draft? Nope, but I can certainly have input on how good a card is based on playing plenty of magic games. I can certainly say a cube forum topic about a card designed for standard or modern is outrageous. This card would be drafted last in every pack!!
Just because a card was "designed for a format" (according to you), doesn't mean it can't be played in another format. You say you play legacy, then can you explain why Council's Judgment, a card "designed for commander" is one of the premier removal spells in legacy? Have you ever heard of pauper cube? Unpowered cube? Hell, here is MTGO's Vintage Cube List (vintage i.e. has power 9.) Mesmeric Fiend is in there.
And yes it is amazingly stupid to have a debate on this card in cube. It's not worthy of cube. So what are we actually discussing here? If the card is good... in what format? Topic should be moved away from cube to another forum... like you know, standard. Calling someone dumb for talking about its relevance where its actually relevant is hilarious and incredibly dense. Fiend got a reprint because its a good balanced card that was phased out even in modern.
We are discussing the card in terms of cube. If its bad in a cube setting, then we will decide whether or not we want to put it in our cube. If you want to discuss the card in terms of its value in modern or standard, then make a thread in those subforums. Why are we creating a different thread for each format? Because as you said, you clearly have no valuable input for this card in a limited environment, but clearly think you know what you are talking about in a constructed environment. The people here only care for the card's application in a limited environment.
I took the time to type this out a be civil. This forum is meant for discussion in the cube environment. If you don't like limited and/or you just want to continue being off topic and toxic, then just leave.
There's an enormous difference between something being on-color and something being "EASY"
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Probably right... I've played a LOT of Tidehollow sculler through the years in multiple formats, and find the value of getting extra time to beat down with it by taking their only removal spell is relevant. Almost all the removal in modern is instant speed, so it's more relevant there.
Less relevant on a 1 powered creature too...
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Wanted to mention a complex idea that a few readers of these posts maybe haven't thought of.
The extent to which Kitesail "missing" matters, is related to the effect "missing" has on the likelyhood of you winning the game. If they have a bad hand and you fail to take a card from it, you are still very likely to win the game.
99% of the time there is no creature spell that is as close to devastating as a natural order or a tinker, a jitte, or a piece of power. Occasionally, seeing an all creature hand with Kitesail will be a GOOD thing and you missing will have little impact on the outcome of the game...
When their hand is worse than average, there is a higher than average chance you will miss, in those scenarios, being down a portion of a card matters less.
Absolutely, there will be times where taking a creature instead of a spell (or nothing) is correct, and impactful... How often that happens, and how impactful it is (on average) is super relevant... I think that is where our disagreement lies.
If "missing" happens say 20% of the time... that has to be weighed against the difference between a 1/1 ground creature and a 1/2 flyer, 100% of the time. My intuition (based on hundreds of games with mesmeric fiend), is that the upgraded body of kitesail would make a small but noticeable difference the majority of games you cast it... and the high frequency of this, offsets occasionally "missing"... especially when a subset of those "misses" won't be that impactful.
*When I say "missing", I mean anything from taking a suboptimal card to having no targets to select from a hand containing a creature*
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I agree... But that doesn't make 2 toughness insignificant.
Requiring rolling earthquake to be cast for 3 instead of 2, bonfire for 5 instead of 3, Jitte to use 2 counters instead of 1, not being killed by liliana the last hope +1, 2 walking ballista counters instead of 1.
I'd say the most significant would be being able to block 1/1 tokens and elves... This guy can single handedly brick wall a lingering souls/bitterblossom/spectral procession.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Well, the flying is more important than the extra toughness, but they both matter.
When exiling creatures matters, it will be more powerful than the extra toughness + flying, but my point is , it's going to matter much less frequent than getting in an extra couple points of damage, or blocking a lingering souls, pecking at a planeswalker, carrying equipment etc.
(see long winded argument two posts above why).
Making the overall value of the better body higher than might be obvious when comparing the differences between the two abilities.
Simplifying it a bit,
I believe the frequent, small increase in output of the body, will make up for the infrequent, large decrease in output of the ability.
Understandable to disagree with that, very tough to estimate precisely without a lot of play experience.. also very format dependent.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Like, I don't think this card is bad, but I think it should only really go in if you're maxed-out on the disruptive 2cc beaters, and are already playing the Fiend/Maggot variants that have a far broader pool of targets to choose from.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
hexproof? indestructible? counterspells?
Black has discard, destroy target creature, board wipes, -1/-1 stuff, sacrifice, hell even deathtouch... take your pick. I want to see your black deck that doesn't have at least 2 forms of these.
You want to use this in a non-black deck? Which should be blue. Go ahead, its color-friendly.
Nah dude, Thalia's non-creature clause isn't a thing.
Again, yes your black deck will have t1 discard and the removal and all that jazz a percentage of games, and some black decks will have more of that effect and will more consistently hit the mile markers you're setting, but it's also not always going to have those kill spells or the right ones or enough of them, and magic is still a game of variance. Magic isn't chess, what happens in the future is often dictated by what are essentially random draws. Add in more than 1 player choosing black in an 8 man (or less) and you have two decks that need discard/kill spells, and both of those decks can't be expected to always have the cards you're seemingly implying they will always have.
Like, are you really saying this card is going to hit 100% of the time, or hit the best target of all the nonland cards 100% of the time, or that you will always have answers to the creatures in a game of magic? Genuinely curious if that's your implication. If you are, that's wrong for a ton of reasons since we're playing a card game that relies on draws and variance, and if you aren't then we have to agree to disagree about how much a lesser number of discard targets for +1 toughness and flying will affect this card and that's fine.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Regardless if it hits or not, I know the next thing I play is safe... That's your downside!
Would you pay 1 mana for a 1/2 flyer? Probably not, but it nonetheless is above curve. And Duress has been used for a long, long time. In fact they just remade it... AGAIN.
Don't underestimate Gitaxian Probe. It's obviously not the same. Still, Free Information got the ban stamp. Information on opponent's hand is good dude, even in a game of variance. Read a book.
Warned for unnecessary "read a book" comment at the end. - Steveman
It's a Cube thread man
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Dawg you're in the cube forum lol
Also: no need to be rude. We're talking with you without personally insulting you ('Read a book'? Come on, that's bush league) and it's not a lot to ask the same of you, even if you think I'm an idiot because you didn't know where you were posting. No place for any of that ***** here, thanks
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
We'll have to agree to disagree. Their main purpose is non-conditional hand disruption IMO/E, and I don't think a 1/2 flier is enough to justify missing on creatures. You do, difference in ideology, no problem there but arguing experience is useless since my side is 'I think this is the most important part in my experience' and yours is 'it's less relevant if it's a 1/2 flier', and while I disagree with that there's no point in just re-phrasing what we've been saying. Like, how are you going to argue what I've seen from my eyes? And how can I further argue the opposite without just saying what I've been saying? We're getting to the silly point where we aren't saying much that we haven't already.
No worries, cheers
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Hit: The card can hurt them: remove a non-creature
Miss: Now I know my next play is safe
Gitaxian Probe was banned because it's most prominent use was free information as a setup to a Storm deck?
What relevance does "this is a cube thread" have to points brought up. It doesn't.
Also, assuming that 'miss' means 'Now I know my next play is safe' is not something I agree with, but its OK to agree to disagree.
And, it's a bit more relevant than talking about it's application in modern, especially since your points here seem to stem from 'building a deck to mitigate variance' (cube is a limited format, not constructed) and your affinity for constructed and lack of experience with limited, which is what this forum pretty much exclusively discusses, specifically with cube in mind.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Literally every other person in this thread -- in this entire subforum -- is looking at the card in Cube context. Thinking about this card in modern is interesting in theory, but right now your posts are wildly useless and a waste of time for everyone else.
Quite frankly you've been off since your first post here, and now that you know where you're posting it seems like you're trolling or just being a straight up ******** for no reason, or rather you're being an ******** because you think we're all idiots that don't know what we're talking about. It's really old, and is frankly not welcome here.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
If you really don't know what cube is, the answer is that is it a set of cards (usually 360, 540, 630 are the common numbers) that someone puts together from all of the available mtg cards into a draftable environment. Do you play MTGO and have you heard of/seen the vintage/legacy/holiday cube? Those are draft sets with specific cards in them from all of the available magic sets. What we are discussing here is whether or not we should include this new card into one of these cube sets based on its power level, which would point us to other cards that are similar to it to make comparison (mesmeric fiend/brain maggot). Educate yourself before you start randomly flaming other people in the forum DEDICATED TO THE TOPIC AT HAND (Cube Draft)
If you are just trolling, then go away, you're not welcome here.
And to be frank, commander, cube, and formats with 1-of means you end up with less playable decks that all look the same. Its a joke of a format and only came about because someone wanted to blow 10 grand on cards.
Assuming that I haven't played anything but modern is incredibly ignorant just because I like modern most. I have made some pretty mean legacy decks after starting in vintage. In fact one of them wins almost every FFA. And it's based on the other best counterspell in the game not named FoW... Cancel hahahaha
Do I have input on what and when to draft? Nope, but I can certainly have input on how good a card is based on playing plenty of magic games. I can certainly say a cube forum topic about a card designed for standard or modern is outrageous. This card would be drafted last in every pack!!
When you insinuate that knowing what your opponent has in hand is worthless, you lose all credibility to me. Yea dude, I'm flaming/trolling/worthless? Look in the mirror.
Its a pretty simple silly debate you narrow-minded fools are having:
Fiend is better against aggro
New guy is better everywhere else.
And yes it is amazingly stupid to have a debate on this card in cube. It's not worthy of cube. So what are we actually discussing here? If the card is good... in what format? Topic should be moved away from cube to another forum... like you know, standard. Calling someone dumb for talking about its relevance where its actually relevant is hilarious and incredibly dense. Fiend got a reprint because its a good balanced card that was phased out even in modern.
AND PS: Grixis Shadow gets stomped by Maverick, even without GSZ or MoR.
EDIT:My previous post here was not so great, and this discussion isn't worth continuing down this specific road, so sorry all, let's move on.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
If you don't like the format, then just leave. You aren't forced to be here on this sub forum dedicated to the cube format
Just because a card was "designed for a format" (according to you), doesn't mean it can't be played in another format. You say you play legacy, then can you explain why Council's Judgment, a card "designed for commander" is one of the premier removal spells in legacy? Have you ever heard of pauper cube? Unpowered cube? Hell, here is MTGO's Vintage Cube List (vintage i.e. has power 9.) Mesmeric Fiend is in there.
We are discussing the card in terms of cube. If its bad in a cube setting, then we will decide whether or not we want to put it in our cube. If you want to discuss the card in terms of its value in modern or standard, then make a thread in those subforums. Why are we creating a different thread for each format? Because as you said, you clearly have no valuable input for this card in a limited environment, but clearly think you know what you are talking about in a constructed environment. The people here only care for the card's application in a limited environment.
I took the time to type this out a be civil. This forum is meant for discussion in the cube environment. If you don't like limited and/or you just want to continue being off topic and toxic, then just leave.