MTG Salvation

I'll be blunt. There were some very serious problems with the voting in the Conspiracies and Non-Traditional Cards Addendum, so I can't really say that the community has spoken here. There was very low turnout compared to every other category, and with a sample size this low it's difficult to say how meaningful the results are.

Four people, including myself, voted to rank the Conspiracies. Thank you Metamind, Cuttups, and ambivalentduck for your votes. I calculated these results in this Google Docs spreadsheet. My earlier caveat about sample size certainly applies, but the results are straightforward enough for me to include here:



In the interests of full transparency, please note that one vote contained an illegal card that had already been voted on in the main Power Rankings voting, and it was not changed after I let the voter know there was a problem. Instead of excluding the vote entirely, I calculated the member's vote by removing that card and bumping each remaining card up a notch.

The Non-Traditional category had far worse problems, to the point I don't think we can draw any meaningful conclusions from the vote. Only three people voted in this category at all, and only one of those voters compiled a full ranking of 20 cards, one voted for 15 cards (and that voter said the bottom 5 weren't actually strong enough to include in a cube environment), and one voted for 12 cards - 4 of which were illegal because they were draft-matters cards that had already been voted on in the main Power Rankings. This left me with only two usable lists for Non-Traditional cards, which I averaged together as a Top 20 here:


Thank you ambivalent duck, cuttups, and Marl_Karx for your votes and feedback on the Non-Traditional addendum, and based on your feedback I think we should consider giving this another shot.

It's clear that there was insufficient consensus what this category should have actually entailed, but based on what discussion there was in the main Power Rankings thread as well as the earlier Straw Poll thread on the subject here's what I categorized as "non-traditional":

The non-traditional cards category includes silver-bordered cards from the Unglued and Unhinged expansions, Happy Holidays gift cards, Planes, Archenemy schemes, Theros Hero cards, Theros Hero Equipments, Celebration Cards, 5-Color Magic and Media Promotional cards, or any kind of "card" without an entry on Oracle/Gatherer.

All three people who voted for Non-Traditional cards expressed concerns about every category of card that I'd allowed to be voted for in this category, except for Unglued, Unhinged, and Happy Holidays cards. Two people voted for ante cards and manual dexterity cards, which I had not proposed voting for as ante cards require house rules to function, and although it was never explicitly discussed, manual dexterity cards were never actually excluded from the main Power Rankings vote. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that, though.

If there is interest, I'm willing to consider holding a new vote for a top 10 in Non-Traditional cards, restricted to Unglued, Unhinged, and Happy Holidays cards. If at least ten people vote yes that they plan to participate, we'll re-do this. Otherwise, I'll consider this separate category an honorable failure.

I think we should also vote on whether to include manual dexterity cards that are not Un-cards (i.e. Chaos Orb & Falling Star) and ante cards in this addendum. For reference, here's the full list of cards referencing ante:

• Amulet of Quoz
  
• Bronze Tablet
  
• Contract from Below
  
• Darkpact
  
• Demonic Attorney
  
• Jeweled Bird
  
• Rebirth
  
• Tempest Efreet
  
• Timmerian Fiends

If you're planning to participate, and there's something else you think should be included in this vote, please speak up before the poll closes.

To clarify, I think the Conspiracy vote and lack of interest in participating in it are quite straightforward, so I see no reason to re-open the vote on Conspiracies this year. This vote is only for the non-Conspiracy non-traditional cards outlined above.

This poll will be open until Monday, December 12th at 6:00 p.m. Seoul time (5:00 a.m. Eastern Standard).

Since Chaos Orb and Contract from Below are the only cards in contention from their respective categories, there has to be agreement on what they actually do.

• Contract from Below -- Discard your hand. Ante a card. Draw 7 cards.
• Chaos Orb -- 1, T: Choose a nontoken permanent on the battlefield. That permanent, all non-token permanents attached to it, and Chaos Orb are destroyed.

I would be A-OK with being happy with our successful voting until this point and to wrap this up.

Also, big thank you overall to Spike Rogue for doing all this. You've put a lot of work into this and I personally really appreciate it.

I think both pools of cards we're creating lists from are too small to separate them. I'd be fine voting for a top 20 list that included all non-traditional cards in them, but separate categories seemed like too much of a stretch. I think the single list should incorporate all cards that were excluded from the other categories.

But I also agree with Salmo that the voting results are pretty much done for me this year. I already voted in all the categories I really wanted to vote in. I had planned on casting a vote for the non-traditional cards, but ultimately decided not to when I saw that the lists were split.

I don't see how a card like Symbol Status should ever be on the same list as a card like Backup Plan unless it was a list of the most powerful cards overall. How are they not in different categories? I'd rather just vote on Conspiracy cards and keep uncards and the rest out then just give up here.

The sections simply aren't deep enough to make two lists out of them. Plus, the whole point of the exercise is to inform players on which cards to draft over others when they're seen in the same pack together. Without some context, the results mean even less.

Quote from ambivalentduck »

Since Chaos Orb and Contract from Below are the only cards in contention from their respective categories, there has to be agreement on what they actually do.

• Contract from Below -- Discard your hand. Ante a card. Draw 7 cards.
• Chaos Orb -- 1, T: Choose a nontoken permanent on the battlefield. That permanent, all non-token permanents attached to it, and Chaos Orb are destroyed.

There are two camps on Contract from Below. One simply follows what the card says (starting ante can equal 0) while the other camp wishes to exclude the card for power reasons and opportunistically pretends that the card requires some kind of errata or house rule.


Chaos Orb is a bit touchier although I think its better to just flip it since we're playing a completely casual format anyway. Turning it into a colorless Vindicate doesn't appeal to me personally.

Quote from Marl_Karx »

One simply follows what the card says (starting ante can equal 0) while the other camp wishes to exclude the card for power reasons and opportunistically pretends that the card requires some kind of errata or house rule.

This is a wildly inaccurate statement, made solely to jab at the anti-Contract crowd, without presenting any information that's even remotely close to how ante actually works or was ever intended to work.

In reality, ante (like gambling/wagering) represents permanent loss to the losing player that extends beyond the game(s) in question; which simply cannot be accurately incorporated into phantom drafting. Even if Ante 0 was a thing (which I don't believe it to be) having to ante an additional card isn't the same as just exiling and ultimately removing it from your limited pool. Therefore the card cannot be included in decks without blatantly ignoring both the text as it's written on the card and the intent of how ante works.

But hey, it's your cube, and you can play by house rules if you want to! This is a casual format, and nothing is stopping you.

And I have no horse in this race; my cube is Vintage-legal, so ante cards are banned regardless of my interpretation of how it works. But conveniently, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, since we don't play with made-up rules, Contract wouldn't be a viable option anyways.

I think both pools of cards we're creating lists from are too small to separate them.

Personally, I agree with you, but the vote in the earlier straw poll favored voting on Conspiracies as their own distinct category by a margin of 17-3. We're not revisiting that this year.

I think the single list should incorporate all cards that were excluded from the other categories.

This made sense to me as well, and no one seemed to have had a problem with this a few months ago, but the feedback and voting results have proven that this isn't actually feasible. The problem with this is that no one appears to want to, or know how to actually vote for a catch-all category. All three of the voters who actually voted for non-traditional cards had complaints about doing this. Archenemy schemes, Planechase planes and phenomena, Theros Hero cards and equipment, 5-Color Magic, and promotional cards are too obscure for anyone here to feel comfortable with voting for them (props to Marl_Karx for giving it his best shot based on theorycraft!). If people wanted to vote on that all-inclusive category, they would have done so last week.

However, there was (emphasis on past tense?) clearly interest in voting for Un-cards and Holiday cards, and possibly manual dexterity and ante cards. If there's enough interest, we can do that.

Chaos Orb is a bit touchier although I think its better to just flip it since we're playing a completely casual format anyway. Turning it into a colorless Vindicate doesn't appeal to me personally.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wanted to could have voted for Chaos Orb in Colorless and Overall if they wanted to based on what the card's Oracle text says. We're not in the business of voting on any playgroup's house rules here, and there's also no particular reason to assume that everyone's cube follows the Vintage banlist. I think the best way to handle it is to just include a reminder in future Power Rankings Voting threads clarifying that manual dexterity cards are included in the main PR vote.

There are two camps on Contract from Below. One simply follows what the card says (starting ante can equal 0) while the other camp wishes to exclude the card for power reasons and opportunistically pretends that the card requires some kind of errata or house rule.

This way of framing your argument is rude and unproductive, you can do better than this.

Your position that ante as you describe it does not require any kind of house rules is also incorrect based on the the Magic: the Gathering Comprehensive Rules:

407. Ante

407.1. Earlier versions of the Magic rules included an ante rule as a way of playing “for keeps.” Playing Magic games for ante is now considered an optional variation on the game, and it’s allowed only where it’s not forbidden by law or by other rules. Playing for ante is strictly forbidden under the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules (WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents).

Most Magic players I know that are serious enough about MTG to be interested in cube draft tend to default to the Tournament Rules, and would consider anything explicitly deviating from it in casual games as a house rule. However, even if we assume that flouting the Tournament Rules is kosher and ante is a legitimate part of MTG so you don't have to remove Contract From Below from your deck before you start each game, the Comprehensive Rules still make it quite clear how ante works:

407.2. When playing for ante, each player puts one random card from his or her deck into the ante zone after determining which player goes first but before players draw any cards. Cards in the ante zone may be examined by any player at any time. At the end of the game, the winner becomes the owner of all the cards in the ante zone.

Unless you're letting your players give away the cards in your cube to each other based on antes wagered, you're not following the sanctioned rules for ante. If the starting ante for each game isn't one card per player, you're not following the sanctioned rules for ante. I've seen some clever ideas for how to incorporate ante into cube matches, like requiring ante card players to post a one-sided cash wager, buy their opponent a drink, or letting players incorporate won ante cards into their draft pool for the remainder of the event, etc. If you want to do that, cool. Make no mistake, though, you and your playgroup have to establish that ahead of time as a house rule because WoTC and the DCI have never established rules for ante that are compatible with cube as we know it.

Quote from Marl_Karx »

There are two camps on Contract from Below. One simply follows what the card says (starting ante can equal 0) while the other camp wishes to exclude the card for power reasons and opportunistically pretends that the card requires some kind of errata or house rule.

Completely agree. If you can support conspiracies and draft-altering constructs, starting ante=0 isn't a problem.

Chaos Orb is a bit touchier although I think its better to just flip it since we're playing a completely casual format anyway. Turning it into a colorless Vindicate doesn't appeal to me personally.

The main issues with NOT turning it into a colorless Vindicate is that people intentionally take up the whole table and/or practice flipping cards extensively and/or demand that cards be removed from their sleeves prior to being flipped. Plus the whole discriminating against medical issues things. With practice on your part and inconsiderate play on the opponent's part, it's a colorless Vindicate that doesn't target.

If you can support conspiracies and draft-altering constructs,

There are clear frameworks in the MTG Comprehensive Rules about Conspiracies and how they work, and draft-altering cards fit very easily into cube if you just play them by their Oracle Text, so we don't need to make any assumptions about house rules in order to discuss and vote on them them in the context of cube.

starting ante=0 isn't a problem.

It certainly isn't a problem for you and your playgroup if you've agreed to that, but this directly contradicts what the rules of MTG have established about ante, so "starting ante = 0" is a house rule. The Power Rankings were not created to vote on cards as played according to anyone's house rules or customized cards, so any discussion of voting on Contract From Below here has to be with the assumption that "starting ante = 1" because that's what the rules of Magic the Gathering say about ante.

The main issues with NOT turning it into a colorless Vindicate is that people intentionally take up the whole table and/or practice flipping cards extensively and/or demand that cards be removed from their sleeves prior to being flipped. Plus the whole discriminating against medical issues things. With practice on your part and inconsiderate play on the opponent's part, it's a colorless Vindicate that doesn't target.

Let me also be clear on this: any Power Rankings voting for Chaos Orb, Falling Star, or any other card involving manual dexterity must also be based on the card's Oracle Text:

If Chaos Orb is on the battlefield, flip Chaos Orb onto the battlefield from a height of at least one foot. If Chaos Orb turns over completely at least once during the flip, destroy all nontoken permanents it touches. Then destroy Chaos Orb.

Playing it any other way is playing by a house rule. Whether you and your playgroup do it this way or not, for the purposes of the Power Rankings, Chaos Orb is not to be treated like a colorless Vindicate if we're voting for it in any category.

Tbh, I don't think it makes sense to rank un-cards and holiday cards. The pool is just too small, and I guess most players who play with such cards, don't play with all of them either. It really makes more sense to just discuss the individual merits of these cards instead. There is a thread about un-cards, that thread is already more interesting than any ranking could be. Some un-cards are really powerful and it may be good to know where they fall on powerlevel in their respective colors, but the community has decided not to rank them among the normal cards (I'm all okay with that). And for the rest of the un-cards, powerlevel is probably not the primary concern for including them anyway, they are played because they're fun. I don't want to talk anyone out of voting, just saying why I wouldn't vote on this or even care much for the results.

Chaos Orb and ante cards are official cards and have well defined rules. They are banned in tournament formats, but there are many cards that are banned in some formats and we still play with them in cube without changing how they work. Everyone can play them however they like, but if we vote on them, we should not consider house rules (like not flipping orb, or ignoring ante).

Quote from ambivalentduck »

starting ante=0 isn't a problem.

It's not a problem. It's just not how ante works in the Magic rules. If you want to play for Ante 0, that's fine, but it's a deviation from the written Magic rules. Additinally, modifying it to work in phantom events is a deviation from how ante works too. Both are, pretty much by definition, house rules.

Again, nothing wrong with house rules, if that's how your playgroup wants to play. This is cube, and cube is a fun and casual format. Modifying rules to fit the experience your playgroup wants is well within your bounds.

Quote from Spike Rogue »

If you can support conspiracies and draft-altering constructs,

It certainly isn't a problem for you and your playgroup if you've agreed to that, but this directly contradicts what the rules of MTG have established about ante, so "starting ante = 0" is a house rule. The Power Rankings were not created to vote on cards as played according to anyone's house rules or customized cards, so any discussion of voting on Contract From Below here has to be with the assumption that "starting ante = 1" because that's what the rules of Magic the Gathering say about ante.

All cube games are played for ante, or maybe your cube drafts just have a HEFTY entry fee. There's no other means of transferring ownership of the cards back to the house after the final games are played within the Comprehensive Rules or Floor Rules. Ante is the only mechanism for changing ownership of cards based on win/loss events.

Rule 108.3:

Legal ownership of a card in the game is irrelevant to the game rules except for the rules for ante.

You can't cube draft otherwise because of rule 7.2 from the floor rules:

Cards must be received directly from tournament officials. This product must be new and previously unopened.

I understand if you and your players want to play by house rules or exclude Contract from Below on power-level grounds, but it's disingenuous to claim that Contract from Below wouldn't satisfy its ante clause.

I am against merging the two lists in future votes. Conspiracies are supported within the rules and are a completely different thing than Un-cards. Another option would be to group them in colorless (or the new ones in their color). After all that is what this is really about - should I pick Power Play over Mana Vault, not over only the other conspiracies.

Cards must be received directly from tournament officials. This product must be new and previously unopened.

I am the tournament official for my cube events, and the players receive the product from me. The product is as new and previously unopened as the packs are in high-level Magic events, where they are opened by tournament officials, reviewed/recorded/verified/stamped, and then replaced. There is as much conflict with cube drafts satisfying tournament rules as there is at the pro tour.

Ante, on the other hand, is clearly defined in regards to how it works and what the intent is. Ante 0 is a deviation from the rules. And ante in phantom events doesn't even come close to satisfying the intent of how it works.

I'm a fan of ante as a concept (look at my avatar pic). But even in the old 5-Color format, ante went from permanent ownership change to graffiti for many communities. I still have some old scribbled-on 5-Color cards in my cube. Isamaru, Eater of Ponies and Umezawa's Kitten Kabob are perennial favorites.

All of this said, playing cube for ante clearly requires house rules. And that's fine if you want to do them. I've considered it but ultimately decided not to. If I did do ante cards in cube, the rules for ante would be as follows.

1. Any card that is anted is irrevocably exiled for the remainder of the match. If there are games remaining in the match, you need to maintain a 40-card deck and may have to add a card from your sodeboard.
2. Cards accepted as ante are rares, mythic rares, foils that are not basic lands, and any card agreed to by the opponent. Thus, a regular Odyssey version of Wild Mongrel cannot be accepted as ante (unless your opponent agrees), but a foil Mongrel is acceptable ante.

Contract From Below is sweet in this format. You can combine it with Advantageous Proclamation to start the game with a 34 card library!

THIS POLL IS NOW CLOSED.

With only 4 votes from people expressing interest in re-voting on silver-bordered cards, we can safely consider this separate category a non-starter. I have already added the results of the Conspiracy vote to the main Power Rankings thread.