I have wanted voidslime to be mono blue for a while. I think i'll be pretty happy to put this in my cube. Not sure what to cut, but i'm sure I'll find something!
This is quite playable at any size. Wow. I truly can't believe there's a standard legal, strictly better Voidslime. I don't want to replace my new pimp Dissolve but I think this is better in the long run. Forbid has been a bit too fun and interesting at times, and no 2-drop counterspell is worth cutting at this point. Regardless, A++ Bravo.
EDIT: Consideration of many cubers dislike of 3-drop counterspells will pull back playability
This is a cool printing. I've always liked Voidslime, but the mana cost is pretty prohibitive. This is a much more flexible counterspell. I don't know if it'll ultimately make the cut, but I may test it for a while.
I like it. It is usually better to counter a whole spell than just an ability, but having both options widens the windows in which you can play this. When you didn't get a chance to counter a Titan, Jitte, or Sneak Attack, countering the ability may still be enough to save your butt. Also, counter fetchlands!
I am interested. Newly printed counters good enough for cube are very rare these days. Add to that that there are so many CIB effects these days and this card seems a very good Cancel variant.
Nice! A mono-blue Voidslime sounds like a reasonable Cube card. For smaller lists, it will probably still not make the cut between all the playable two mana counters and the extremely powerful four mana counters, but I think it should be very welcome for big lists and may be good enough for medium lists as well.
Seems pretty great. Cancel/Dissolve/etc are really not terrible cards, but ultimately underperform since there are times when waiting til 3 mana means you have a dead card/board presence you can't handle/can't cast multiple spells. Getting that little more out of this card--and sometimes a LOT more--is huge. Countering strip mine or planes walker ultimates seem like pretty big game.
How does everyone feel about Dissolve currently? I'm at 360 over here and run it and Forbid as 3-drop counters. It seems like the cut if there was one.
Dissolve shouldn't be in a 360 as there are a bunch of better blue cards. I'm not even sure I would run this in a 360, so at minimum it's a good switch to test.
Seems worse than Dissolve and definitely worse than all commonly played 2 mana options and Forbid, but could easily replace something weaker and be my worst counter at 720.
Seems worse than Dissolve and definitely worse than all commonly played 2 mana options and Forbid, but could easily replace something weaker and be my worst counter at 720.
Countering activated and triggered abilities seems soooooooo much better than scry 1.
This instant counter spell is meant to replace Scatter of the Winds when the next rotation takes place. I find it to be a better counter spell since it has multiple targets to chose from. I can see this card been played in a control deck.
Countering activated and triggered abilities seems soooooooo much better than scry 1.
I disagree. Scry 1 is always active, gets me out of mana screws/floods and finds my real answers. None of the situations described here in this thread for Stifle appear like they are worth a card and 3 mana and most are pure cases of lose less. I'd rather dig for my Oblivion Ring than wait for my opponent's planeswalker to ultimate, while dealing with his activations in the meanwhile. Countering fetches would have been nice if it did not require that much mana and would have happened in the most important stages of the game. Countering an activated ability of a titan is again, delaying the inevitable. Yes, better to have than option than not have it, but I'd rather be digging for true answers with my counter spells, whether cast before the titan of after it. Then again in the majority of games Stifle will have no real effect while getting your mass removal/missing land a turn earlier will be great much more often.
I think it's much better than Dissolve in this format. People may be underestimating the value of the Stifle effect...
I think people undervalue the effect of scry 1. How many people have even tried Dissolve? People are getting overly excited about this card just because it is new and an effect we never got a cubable version of. I'd test in instead of Dissolve if I had no other choice, but I think it will ultimately be weaker.
This instant counter spell is meant to replace Scatter of the Winds when the next rotation takes place. I find it to be a better counter spell since it has multiple targets to chose from. I can see this card been played in a control deck.
I think Scatter is the worse of the three counters discussed and would be my cut as well.
Scry 1 is always active if you're countering a spell; when they're doing something big with an activated or triggered ability--which is often since there are soooooo many of those--then this card shines so much more. Like, that scry 1 means nothing when my opponent is ultimating a planes walker, equipping for lethal, triggering something devastating, making this turn's blocker, countering fetches (which is still nice at 3 mana since that's often completely messing with their plans and fetching lands is important any time you need to fetch, which could be any point of the game) etc etc etc. Like I can think of a million situations and have seen so many times in games where I've had a counter in hand and they're just beating me with board presence where this card would make such a huge difference. It's essentially a counter spell that can also interact with the board, which is pretty nice.
FWIW I've played a lot with dissolve both on the MODO and other various cubes and have always been pretty underwhelmed since it can really feel like a dead card at 3 mana, something this card inherently avoids by not relying on casting for relevance. They're both ultimately the same card when they're counter spells with Dissolve clearly being better there, but in every other situation Disallow seems like a star whereas Dissolve does nothing, and that type of versatility when comparing cards is huge. It's why Cryptic Command is commonly played and Dismiss isn't, even if you could argue that Cryptic Command (probably(?)) is most often cast as a more-mana-intensive version of Dismiss. Having relevant options for the card's applications > scry 1
Countering activated and triggered abilities seems soooooooo much better than scry 1.
I disagree. Scry 1 is always active, gets me out of mana screws/floods and finds my real answers. None of the situations described here in this thread for Stifle appear like they are worth a card and 3 mana and most are pure cases of lose less. I'd rather dig for my Oblivion Ring than wait for my opponent's planeswalker to ultimate, while dealing with his activations in the meanwhile. Countering fetches would have been nice if it did not require that much mana and would have happened in the most important stages of the game. Countering an activated ability of a titan is again, delaying the inevitable. Yes, better to have than option than not have it, but I'd rather be digging for true answers with my counter spells, whether cast before the titan of after it. Then again in the majority of games Stifle will have no real effect while getting your mass removal/missing land a turn earlier will be great much more often.
I think it's much better than Dissolve in this format. People may be underestimating the value of the Stifle effect...
I think people undervalue the effect of scry 1. How many people have even tried Dissolve? People are getting overly excited about this card just because it is new and an effect we never got a cubable version of. I'd test in instead of Dissolve if I had no other choice, but I think it will ultimately be weaker.
This instant counter spell is meant to replace Scatter of the Winds when the next rotation takes place. I find it to be a better counter spell since it has multiple targets to chose from. I can see this card been played in a control deck.
I think Scatter is the worse of the three counters discussed and would be my cut as well.
Fwiw, I've tested both scatter and dissolve extensively and they are both on my on deck binder looking in.
I prefer dissolve by a very small margin over scatter
I've also played a lot of RUG delver in legacy , where stifle plays an important roll. Stifling wastelands and fetchlands are it's most important roll, which is only useful because it costs 1 mana and you are playing a resource denial game.
However, I'm always blown away by how many spots stifle ends up saving me the game that I would have never imagined.
It's very easy to underestimate the effect, and I suspect you are doing so.
That said, I predict the 3 counters run close in power. With this card being BY FAR the most interesting of the three, and I suspect the most powerful.
Scry is good and technically always active, but I think it is fair to say that scry 1 also sometimes does basically nothing. When you like the card you see and leave it on top, and the information that you got by seeing it doesn't change your game plan, it didn't really do anything. I don't have an estimate how often that happens, but it happens.
I haven't played Stifle or Voidslime in cube, but I would like to give Disallow a try. We don't run any 3cmc counter though, so finding a cut may be hard.
Scry 1 is always active if you're countering a spell; when they're doing something big with an activated or triggered ability--which is often since there are soooooo many of those--then this card shines so much more. Like, that scry 1 means nothing when my opponent is ultimating a planes walker, equipping for lethal, triggering something devastating, making this turn's blocker, countering fetches (which is still nice at 3 mana since that's often completely messing with their plans and fetching lands is important any time you need to fetch, which could be any point of the game) etc etc etc. Like I can think of a million situations and have seen so many times in games where I've had a counter in hand and they're just beating me with board presence where this card would make such a huge difference. It's essentially a counter spell that can also interact with the board, which is pretty nice.
FWIW I've played a lot with dissolve both on the MODO and other various cubes and have always been pretty underwhelmed since it can really feel like a dead card at 3 mana, something this card inherently avoids by not relying on casting for relevance. They're both ultimately the same card when they're counter spells with Dissolve clearly being better there, but in every other situation Disallow seems like a star whereas Dissolve does nothing, and that type of versatility when comparing cards is huge. It's why Cryptic Command is commonly played and Dismiss isn't, even if you could argue that Cryptic Command (probably(?)) is most often cast as a more-mana-intensive version of Dismiss. Having relevant options for the card's applications > scry 1
Certainly there are situations where one is better than the other but I think you are highly hyperbolic. Replace "in every other situation Disallow seems like a star whereas Dissolve does nothing" with "there are some situations in which stifling would be relevant, rare situations where it will be worth a whole card and even rarer ones in which it will be worth the card and the mana cost" and I agree with you. I am exaggerating here to the other side to make this point so everybody can calm down. Yes, Dissolve does nothing when it doesn't counter but that is why you play the card in your deck in the first place. You wouldn't play Dissallow for the Stifle option - you would only play it in a deck that wants a critical mass of counterspells as redundancy to the cheaper and better counters in cube. It will not get any new homes or synergistic plays to build around. It just got an alternative mode of a card that sees sparse cube play even while costing significantly less (albeit in a narrow package, and versatility is worth mana too, but not that much mana) that will do nothing almost always.
It is hard to get excited about Dissolve. Disallow offers a mode that is unavailable in its competitors so it is not as bluntly worse than them as Dissolve. Disallow is more interesting (a big part of it is just for being new) and will create more memorable moments for sure. But it is less consistent and I predict it is less powerful (arguments can be made for both sides about skill-intensity and fun factors). I am going to play this card at 720 because hard counters suck at that size but I'd be surprised if this is 540 material after a year or so.
Finally got our monoblue Counterspell / Stifle hybrid package (aka Voidslime). Thoughts?
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EDIT: Consideration of many cubers dislike of 3-drop counterspells will pull back playability
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Borderline on power level, but it's playable.
There's gonna be a ton of blowout moments where people play into this card at a crucial moment.
It can strike fear in the hearts of people when it's unlikely the opponent has it, but it's existence in the format makes it possible.
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Countering activated and triggered abilities seems soooooooo much better than scry 1.
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I disagree. Scry 1 is always active, gets me out of mana screws/floods and finds my real answers. None of the situations described here in this thread for Stifle appear like they are worth a card and 3 mana and most are pure cases of lose less. I'd rather dig for my Oblivion Ring than wait for my opponent's planeswalker to ultimate, while dealing with his activations in the meanwhile. Countering fetches would have been nice if it did not require that much mana and would have happened in the most important stages of the game. Countering an activated ability of a titan is again, delaying the inevitable. Yes, better to have than option than not have it, but I'd rather be digging for true answers with my counter spells, whether cast before the titan of after it. Then again in the majority of games Stifle will have no real effect while getting your mass removal/missing land a turn earlier will be great much more often.
I think people undervalue the effect of scry 1. How many people have even tried Dissolve? People are getting overly excited about this card just because it is new and an effect we never got a cubable version of. I'd test in instead of Dissolve if I had no other choice, but I think it will ultimately be weaker.
I think Scatter is the worse of the three counters discussed and would be my cut as well.
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FWIW I've played a lot with dissolve both on the MODO and other various cubes and have always been pretty underwhelmed since it can really feel like a dead card at 3 mana, something this card inherently avoids by not relying on casting for relevance. They're both ultimately the same card when they're counter spells with Dissolve clearly being better there, but in every other situation Disallow seems like a star whereas Dissolve does nothing, and that type of versatility when comparing cards is huge. It's why Cryptic Command is commonly played and Dismiss isn't, even if you could argue that Cryptic Command (probably(?)) is most often cast as a more-mana-intensive version of Dismiss. Having relevant options for the card's applications > scry 1
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Fwiw, I've tested both scatter and dissolve extensively and they are both on my on deck binder looking in.
I prefer dissolve by a very small margin over scatter
I've also played a lot of RUG delver in legacy , where stifle plays an important roll. Stifling wastelands and fetchlands are it's most important roll, which is only useful because it costs 1 mana and you are playing a resource denial game.
However, I'm always blown away by how many spots stifle ends up saving me the game that I would have never imagined.
It's very easy to underestimate the effect, and I suspect you are doing so.
That said, I predict the 3 counters run close in power. With this card being BY FAR the most interesting of the three, and I suspect the most powerful.
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I haven't played Stifle or Voidslime in cube, but I would like to give Disallow a try. We don't run any 3cmc counter though, so finding a cut may be hard.
Certainly there are situations where one is better than the other but I think you are highly hyperbolic. Replace "in every other situation Disallow seems like a star whereas Dissolve does nothing" with "there are some situations in which stifling would be relevant, rare situations where it will be worth a whole card and even rarer ones in which it will be worth the card and the mana cost" and I agree with you. I am exaggerating here to the other side to make this point so everybody can calm down. Yes, Dissolve does nothing when it doesn't counter but that is why you play the card in your deck in the first place. You wouldn't play Dissallow for the Stifle option - you would only play it in a deck that wants a critical mass of counterspells as redundancy to the cheaper and better counters in cube. It will not get any new homes or synergistic plays to build around. It just got an alternative mode of a card that sees sparse cube play even while costing significantly less (albeit in a narrow package, and versatility is worth mana too, but not that much mana) that will do nothing almost always.
It is hard to get excited about Dissolve. Disallow offers a mode that is unavailable in its competitors so it is not as bluntly worse than them as Dissolve. Disallow is more interesting (a big part of it is just for being new) and will create more memorable moments for sure. But it is less consistent and I predict it is less powerful (arguments can be made for both sides about skill-intensity and fun factors). I am going to play this card at 720 because hard counters suck at that size but I'd be surprised if this is 540 material after a year or so.
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