Until end of turn. Not as good? I like how you can switch to better targets, but steeling for one turn might not be as good.
A) Its a red card. You were never going to get to steal a permenant forver.
B) You can't switch permenants, it works on the same permenenat every turn
C) It steals that same permenent EVERY one of your turns. That's kind of a huge deal
I'm surprised that people don't seem too enthused by this card; looks great to me! I'm looking to cut Collective Defiance from my Cube to test this card.
I'm surprised that people don't seem too enthused by this card; looks great to me! I'm looking to cut Collective Defiance from my Cube to test this card.
Same, this card seems incredible. I'm looking forward to the day when my opponent casts Newlamog with 20 or less cards in his deck and he decides that sharing is caring. And it's splashable!
Meh. I like Conscripts better, since it's abuseable and comes with it's own 3/3 haste body attached, but this card is okay. Red's 4s are pretty savage though; I don't see a cut I like.
Meh. I like Conscripts better, since it's abuseable and comes with it's own 3/3 haste body attached, but this card is okay. Red's 4s are pretty savage though; I don't see a cut I like.
This card is easily testable over Avalanche Riders or Purphoros for anyone running those. I'd say the unique effect alone makes it more exciting than most red 4 drops. I'd look at drafting this outside of red aggro decks, which is more than I can say for several red 4's.
I'm not sure if Purphoros is better or worse, but I like the angle it gives token decks enough to still want to keep it no matter what. It's definitely more narrow than Fugue, but it's powerful enough in the decks that want it that I'm hesitant to cut it.
Discussed this card with a fellow cube manager, some points came up:
1) It's in an extremely competed spot.
2) It's better than Conscripts in the sense that it repeats itself without shenanigans and costs one mana less. It's worse than Conscripts in the sense that it doesn't attack and doesn't combo with Twin or Kiki, if you run those.
3) It's a bit inconsistent & situational. It's at its best when you can steal a PW about to ultimate or a huge creature that's blocking your alpha strike and threatening lethal on the crackback. This makes me unsure about which deck would actually want this: I see it probably working best in an aggressive deck where it's a curve topper, because a slower deck can't really afford to get rid of a problem permanent for only half of the turns with the opponent still getting to use it on their turns (it might be great at times, but they'd still rather play Terminate). But an aggressive red deck with a curve topping at 4 would probably much rather play Koth or Hero than this, right?
I agree that the card is extremely cool and unique, but I'm really not sure what I'd cut for it. It feels like a standard powered/unpowered cube would have to either cut an aggro creature or an archetype-enabler (in favor of good but weird pseudo-removal).
a slower deck can't really afford to get rid of a problem permanent for only half of the turns with the opponent still getting to use it on their turns ... But an aggressive red deck with a curve topping at 4 would probably much rather play Koth or Hero than this, right?
Yup. And unlike Conscripts, if the permanent that I take goes away, I don't get to keep a 3/3 body around in addition to the Word of Seizing effect that I paid for. I think that's worth 1, personally. And the ability to abuse it because it's strapped to a body.
Card is solid, but I think red's 4s are all either better or too important to specific decks to remove for this.
Really? I don't think the card is playable outside of hard aggro, and the effects from both Purphoros and Riders isn't replaceable with other cards.
Maybe the cut is wrong but I still think this card is test-worthy.
The card seems to be great against every deck type other than hard aggro. If anything I'd be using this in midrange first and foremost. Your aggro match-up is usually good in midrange and you need to turn the game against a resolved control finisher or to keep a deck like reanimator or ramp in check.
The card also seems great in aggro and it's unique enough that I'd try it in a rUG cheaty deck too just to see how it plays out in a few drafts.
I don't think a card this unique should be shoved aside without testing it. We might be looking at the next Elesh Norn, a card nobody played at first, and now is in most cube lists posted here. Hyperbole of course but it gets the point across.
Not saying this is not playable or anything, but it just can't take either Purphoros or Avanlanche Riders spot. Overall, I'm not sure where it exactly stands... 720 and more? Not even sure about it.
Not saying this is not playable or anything, but it just can't take either Purphoros or Avanlanche Riders spot. Overall, I'm not sure where it exactly stands... 720 and more? Not even sure about it.
I would cut Chaos Warp from your list as that card has always been garbage for us, but I understand that YMMV and there's probably a results oriented reason you're running it i.e. the luck gods didn't **** you repeatedly.
As far as the 4-cmc slot is concerned, I think this competes directly with Avalanche Riders. Purphoros is a lynchpin for red tokens, so I wouldn't cut that if you support that. I think both fugue and riders see play in the same decks: aggro and aggressive midrange decks. I can see myself possibly playing Fugue in a control deck as a pseudo-Confiscate. This also gives red more tools to "deal" with Titan sized creatures. There aren't a lot of effects that not only steal PWs, but any permanent. Also, more threaten effects to help feed my Greater Gargadon are always welcome.
As far as the 4-cmc slot is concerned, I think this competes directly with Avalanche Riders. Purphoros is a lynchpin for red tokens, so I wouldn't cut that if you support that. I think both fugue and riders see play in the same decks: aggro and aggressive midrange decks. I can see myself possibly playing Fugue in a control deck as a pseudo-Confiscate. This also gives red more tools to "deal" with Titan sized creatures. There aren't a lot of effects that not only steal PWs, but any permanent. Also, more threaten effects to help feed my Greater Gargadon are always welcome.
I could get behind this, I like both this and Purphoros better from a gameplay perspective than "Shock+Stone Rain with cute fringe interactions" anyway.
Now this is a threaten variant that I like! Stealing any permanent is a big deal and getting a second or third use out of this effect if necessary will definitely help you seal the deal. I think this card is roughly on the same level as Zealous Conscripts and I like to run a second version of this effect.
As far as the 4-cmc slot is concerned, I think this competes directly with Avalanche Riders. Purphoros is a lynchpin for red tokens, so I wouldn't cut that if you support that. I think both fugue and riders see play in the same decks: aggro and aggressive midrange decks. I can see myself possibly playing Fugue in a control deck as a pseudo-Confiscate. This also gives red more tools to "deal" with Titan sized creatures. There aren't a lot of effects that not only steal PWs, but any permanent. Also, more threaten effects to help feed my Greater Gargadon are always welcome.
I could get behind this, I like both this and Purphoros better from a gameplay perspective than "Shock+Stone Rain with cute fringe interactions" anyway.
Those "cute fringe interactions" you speak of are THE reason why Riders is good. As just an aggro 4-drop, it's completely cuttable. But in decks designed to break the ≤2 power ETB trigger abuse cards, Riders is a powerhouse, and an irreplaceable effect. There's so may ways to abuse the effect, and that's the one thing that makes it continue to perform. Shock + Stone Rain is a completely disingenuous evaluation of Avalanche Riders and what it represents to the decks it goes into.
Is it just me or is this a better Zealous Conscripts?
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Edit: it steals permanent and not only creatures. This card is way better than I thought. Planeswalkers? Enchantments? I'm slamming this into my cube.
This is red CONFISCATE. At 4 mana splashable cost.
Red 4 is getting awfully crowded, I think Avalanche Rider just rode his last Avalanche for me
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You steal for every one of your turns as long as it remains in play. That is super strong.
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You can't switch targets, it's "ETB / every upkeep, I tap / gain control of X until end of turn, it gains haste."
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A) Its a red card. You were never going to get to steal a permenant forver.
B) You can't switch permenants, it works on the same permenenat every turn
C) It steals that same permenent EVERY one of your turns. That's kind of a huge deal
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Same, this card seems incredible. I'm looking forward to the day when my opponent casts Newlamog with 20 or less cards in his deck and he decides that sharing is caring. And it's splashable!
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1) It's in an extremely competed spot.
2) It's better than Conscripts in the sense that it repeats itself without shenanigans and costs one mana less. It's worse than Conscripts in the sense that it doesn't attack and doesn't combo with Twin or Kiki, if you run those.
3) It's a bit inconsistent & situational. It's at its best when you can steal a PW about to ultimate or a huge creature that's blocking your alpha strike and threatening lethal on the crackback. This makes me unsure about which deck would actually want this: I see it probably working best in an aggressive deck where it's a curve topper, because a slower deck can't really afford to get rid of a problem permanent for only half of the turns with the opponent still getting to use it on their turns (it might be great at times, but they'd still rather play Terminate). But an aggressive red deck with a curve topping at 4 would probably much rather play Koth or Hero than this, right?
I agree that the card is extremely cool and unique, but I'm really not sure what I'd cut for it. It feels like a standard powered/unpowered cube would have to either cut an aggro creature or an archetype-enabler (in favor of good but weird pseudo-removal).
Yup. And unlike Conscripts, if the permanent that I take goes away, I don't get to keep a 3/3 body around in addition to the Word of Seizing effect that I paid for. I think that's worth 1, personally. And the ability to abuse it because it's strapped to a body.
Card is solid, but I think red's 4s are all either better or too important to specific decks to remove for this.
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Maybe the cut is wrong but I still think this card is test-worthy.
The card seems to be great against every deck type other than hard aggro. If anything I'd be using this in midrange first and foremost. Your aggro match-up is usually good in midrange and you need to turn the game against a resolved control finisher or to keep a deck like reanimator or ramp in check.
The card also seems great in aggro and it's unique enough that I'd try it in a rUG cheaty deck too just to see how it plays out in a few drafts.
I don't think a card this unique should be shoved aside without testing it. We might be looking at the next Elesh Norn, a card nobody played at first, and now is in most cube lists posted here. Hyperbole of course but it gets the point across.
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I would cut Chaos Warp from your list as that card has always been garbage for us, but I understand that YMMV and there's probably a results oriented reason you're running it i.e. the luck gods didn't **** you repeatedly.
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I could get behind this, I like both this and Purphoros better from a gameplay perspective than "Shock+Stone Rain with cute fringe interactions" anyway.
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Those "cute fringe interactions" you speak of are THE reason why Riders is good. As just an aggro 4-drop, it's completely cuttable. But in decks designed to break the ≤2 power ETB trigger abuse cards, Riders is a powerhouse, and an irreplaceable effect. There's so may ways to abuse the effect, and that's the one thing that makes it continue to perform. Shock + Stone Rain is a completely disingenuous evaluation of Avalanche Riders and what it represents to the decks it goes into.
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