I think they're all pretty comparable to one another. It's not much better with Loam than Wilds/Expanse are, but it's WAY worse with Crucible.
But I agree that when it's being used as a generic fixer (rather than a synergy/combo card) the ETBT untapped mode and/or being able to secure an untapped source of a missing color is going to be better. But all of these effects are pretty medium when it comes to just using them at face value. Which is why losing the landfall interactions and the bottomless land chain off Crucible does impact the value.
They all interfere with your ability to curve out if they're actually fixing your mana. But the flexibility of being able to fix every color for you has to come with some sort of a price.
I'll begrudgingly play it alongside the other two, and they can all be boring, middling, maindeckable fixers together.
The real question I suppose is where does it sit in the pantheon of 5-color fixers? Is it better than Grand Coliseum? Aether Hub? Gemstone Mine? They've got different purposes, but in a P1P1 vacuum, how do they compare?
Definitely finding a cut for this, just for the colorless support which I'm still testing right now. Getting to cube only once a month makes it a slow process.
I feel like this card isn't given enough credit. It's not exciting, but it's absolutely a staple. I know very few cubes that don't run at least one terramorphic expanse effect. They're boring, functional, and omnipresent.
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Ya, I'm starting to come around to the card more. These kinds of effects have always been good, even though they're unexciting. Ash Barrens isn't always better than Expanse/Wilds, but it is going to be the better card in a lot of cases. I certainly don't think it's a staple (probably won't make the cut in the smallest of cubes), but if you run Expanse and/or Wilds, this should probably be in alongside them at the very least.
I could see running this over Expanse or Wilds if you wanted to avoid the exact duplicate effect in a 360/450 cube. I don't think it makes the cut in addition to those two at those cube sizes, though. I'll be running it at 555, though I'm not yet sure what my cut will be.
The real question I suppose is where does it sit in the pantheon of 5-color fixers? Is it better than Grand Coliseum? Aether Hub? Gemstone Mine? They've got different purposes, but in a P1P1 vacuum, how do they compare?
Well, I love to draft Grand Coliseum decks, so that's what I'd prefer P1P1. Gemstone mine is really only playable in aggro, and I'd basically never P1P1 it. I'd prefer Ash Barrens to Hub/Bridge though, as well as Wild/Expanse. I think likely not as good P1P1 as City/Confluence either.
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I always felt a bit like a pleb playing Evolving Wilds, glad to see a nice alternative. Will probably make the swap as Landfall isn't that relevant 99% of the time.
So hold on a second. I played some games with this card, substituting Wilds/Expanse for it in the last round of testing, and we found a rather serious deficiency that this has in comparison to the original two. When you have mana available for a CC spell, and you need to use this as your 3rd land drop to fix for your 4cc spell, it doesn't work. Example: Playing UB control. I have two Islands and Ash Barrens in hand. I play the Islands out first, so I can hold Mana Drain up on my opponent's turn. When I need to play this as my 3rd land, and needed to use it to get/play a Swamp, I couldn't hold up UU and tutor for my Swamp in the same turn. Unlike Wilds/Expanse, I have to use resources I already have on the table to secure a basic I don't have access to. So when you're using it to snag a color you don't already have, it takes a turn away from having all your existing colors away. It showed up with Mana Drain in game one, and Hymn to Tourach in game 2. And that was only in a single best of 3 match...
That, in addition to the other advantages, has secured my position that this card is equal to Wilds/Expanse at best, and certainly not better than.
I had a nagging thought about that in the back of my head. In my initial goldfishing, I've found that Wilds/Expanse is less fussy in the early turns (it's going to work better with stuff like Gaea's Cradle and Mishra's Workshop as well), while Barrens goes up in value significantly past the 3rd or 4th turn. I still think this offers more, but I'll keep it in mind for my first real playtesting session.
That, in addition to the other advantages, has secured my position that this card is equal to Wilds/Expanse at best, and certainly not better than.
I also think that Barrens is roughly as good, but not better than Wilds/Expanse. I had the feeling that those who claimed Barrens were better were missing something, but I wasn't sure myself what scenario that might be. Now I know the (not entirely uncommon) scenario where Barrens are worse. Thanks for putting it into words.
I will still try to find room for Barrens, but I won't be replacing Wilds or Expanse with it.
So hold on a second. I played some games with this card, substituting Wilds/Expanse for it in the last round of testing, and we found a rather serious deficiency that this has in comparison to the original two. When you have mana available for a CC spell, and you need to use this as your 3rd land drop to fix for your 4cc spell, it doesn't work. Example: Playing UB control. I have two Islands and Ash Barrens in hand. I play the Islands out first, so I can hold Mana Drain up on my opponent's turn. When I need to play this as my 3rd land, and needed to use it to get/play a Swamp, I couldn't hold up UU and tutor for my Swamp in the same turn. Unlike Wilds/Expanse, I have to use resources I already have on the table to secure a basic I don't have access to. So when you're using it to snag a color you don't already have, it takes a turn away from having all your existing colors away. It showed up with Mana Drain in game one, and Hymn to Tourach in game 2. And that was only in a single best of 3 match...
That, in addition to the other advantages, has secured my position that this card is equal to Wilds/Expanse at best, and certainly not better than.
Couldn't you just cycle it for a swamp at the end of your opponent's turn 1? The general point that using it to find a new color reduces your access to colors in play by 1 on that turn is well taken, but I think I might be missing something in this particular example.
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So hold on a second. I played some games with this card, substituting Wilds/Expanse for it in the last round of testing, and we found a rather serious deficiency that this has in comparison to the original two. When you have mana available for a CC spell, and you need to use this as your 3rd land drop to fix for your 4cc spell, it doesn't work. Example: Playing UB control. I have two Islands and Ash Barrens in hand. I play the Islands out first, so I can hold Mana Drain up on my opponent's turn. When I need to play this as my 3rd land, and needed to use it to get/play a Swamp, I couldn't hold up UU and tutor for my Swamp in the same turn. Unlike Wilds/Expanse, I have to use resources I already have on the table to secure a basic I don't have access to. So when you're using it to snag a color you don't already have, it takes a turn away from having all your existing colors away. It showed up with Mana Drain in game one, and Hymn to Tourach in game 2. And that was only in a single best of 3 match...
That, in addition to the other advantages, has secured my position that this card is equal to Wilds/Expanse at best, and certainly not better than.
Couldn't you just cycle it for a swamp at the end of your opponent's turn 1? The general point that using it to find a new color reduces your access to colors in play by 1 on that turn is well taken, but I think I might be missing something in this particular example.
No. I needed the T1 Island to cast Serum Visions (which is actually what drew me the Ash Barrens). T2 was Island into Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. T3 was supposed to be able to secure my 3rd land drop and leave up Mana Drain, but because of how the Barrens works, I was unable to cycle for a Swamp and have UU available if I still wanted to make a land drop. Super awkward.
And it happened again in G3, with a flipped scenario involving two Swamps, a Barrens and a Hymn to Tourach. Because of the way Barrens works, I was unable to get my Island and cast Hymn in the same turn. Again, because I had plays for T1 and T2 that required mana to be spent on things other than the landcycling. Major bummer.
Excellent points made in this thread by multiple people.
It strikes me as a better card than evolving wilds in a deck that needs to hit their land drops untapped early to play spells.. speed/tempo is essential... and their fixing requirements aren't too intensive.
IE id rather have this in a ramp/Agro deck than a control deck. Especially artifact ramp decks.
I still prefer the evolving wild variants from a design perspective because I think there are more interesting interactions. If two cards are marginally different in power, Ill add the more interesting card even if I believe it's SLIGHTY weaker.
That seems like a pretty good summary. The pro which you haven't listed explicitly is being able to fix for colors immediately -- for instance if your board is Bayou+swamp, you have a forest and arc trail in hand, and you want to cast the Trail, topdecking Barrens is much better than topdecking Wilds.
Edit: I misinterpreted your second pro, which is actually exactly what I just said. In that case the other pro is when you want the untapped mana and the C isn't a problem.
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... the other pro is when you want the untapped mana and the C isn't a problem.
Ya, and that's actually the biggest selling point, imo. Being able to curve out when you don't need fixing is pretty nice.
The other interactions are important too, and testing will tell whether I like it slightly more or less than Expanse/Wilds, but that may not really be important for us, because I think we can find another cut and run all three.
You call Loam Synergies a pro, but it's not much better with Loam than Expanse/Wilds is. Outside of trying to spend mana to stockpile basic lands in your hand, it has an almost identical impact on your mana development. Whereas the difference in how they interact with Crucible is significant.
It's also pretty much impossible to keep a 1-lander with Barrens. Whereas with a 5-6 card post-mulligan hand, an Expanse/Wilds and a great 1cc play (Recall, Birds/Hierarch, Thoughtseize, Vamp/Seal, etc.) ...I can entertain keeping those hands. That's not a huge pro, but it's also not entirely irrelevant.
But it's also worth noting that Barrens can be used for mana in situations where there aren't any basics left to fetch. Likely to be extremely corner-case, but perhaps an important distinction.
I didn't say it was always worse. I said there are situations where it can't be used the way I need it to, and Expanse/Wilds would've done exactly what I wanted.
The situation I described is one disadvantage that Barrens has in comparison to Expanse/Wilds. It certainly doesn't imply that it's always worse. And I didn't say it was.
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It's different, but not worse.
Well, if those differences make it worse it some cases, it can be both. Neither is strictly better than the other, so it's about weighing the pros and cons of each one. Barrens has a lot of advantages over Wilds/Expanse (which have all been discussed). But it also has some deficiencies. And some of those deficiencies are pretty significant to me. The example I provided explains one of those deficiencies, where in those situations, an Expanse/Wilds would've been FAR better for my mana development in those games. Of course that's not every scenario. But there absolutely are situations where a Wilds/Expense will be better for me than the Barrens ...which was the point of the post.
The ultimate point was that it's sometimes better and sometimes worse than Expanse/Wilds, and that it's not just corner-case interactions that separate the effects. There's a legit list of pros and cons for both lands, and after seeing it in action, I think it's much closer to (probably equal to, actually) the other lands than originally projected.
In the situations I outlined, Wilds/Expanse would be better.
That doesn't mean the "different" way it fixes is always worse, but it does mean that there are some situations that arise where those differences make Barrens worse.
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Ash Barrens is worse in a deck that is built around Crucible of Worlds right from p1p1 and it's slightly worse in a deck with one or two landfall cards (since you won't play more than that with just 5 of them spread across four colors in your cube). In every other deck it's clearly better.
False. There are relevant situations where the way it fixes is worse. In decks playing multiple CC 2-drops, I'd certainly consider playing Wilds over Barrens if I was only going to dedicate a slot to one card.
Plus if you really think Wilds is better for those decks, then Barrens would be equally better for decks without lots of CC 2-drops.
Absolutely. For decks without any CC 2-drops, no Crucible of Worlds, no landfall interactions, and it's not a 15-land mana dork deck, it's likely the better land.
There are lots of situations where Barrens is better. But there are also situations where it is worse. I think both the pros and cons are significant, which is why I think the cards are comparable to each other.
Quote from Phitt77 »
And that means:
- Barrens is worse in a dedicated Crucible of Worlds deck (1% of decks?)
- Barrens is slightly worse in a deck with landfall cards (maybe 5% of decks)
- Barrens is worse if you have a one land hand you want to keep (happens in 1 out of 100 games)
- Barrens is better in every other deck since you can have it etb untapped if you don't need the fixing
To me that's not 'equal at best' since Barrens is better in the vast majority of decks it would get played in.
You're forgetting the cases where Barrens is worse when you want to play a CC card and a tapped mana fixing land on T3. Which is one reason why it's not automatically better in every other deck.
The T3 2-drop + fixing land is a commonly occurring situation, since it can often be an ideal place in the curve to use an ETBT land. And when that 2-drop is a CC card, I can get punished hard for my 3rd land being a Barrens instead of ...really any other land (including an Expanse/Wilds, which would work fine in that spot). You may not consider those situations important, but it is to me, and I've already seen it matter in multiple occasions in testing.
Barrens may be the better overall card, but it's certainly not automatically "better in every other deck" or "in every other deck it's clearly better" when there are cases where it's not. I just outlined multiple examples where it can punish you for working the way that it does.
Quote from Phitt77 »
It did certainly sound like this was a downside compared to Wilds/Expanse to you, and not just a different way of fixing.
You seem to be implying that because Barrens is better in more situations, that its subpar interaction with CC spells on T3 isn't a drawback. It is a drawback. The "different way" that it fixes makes it flat-out worse in some situations. And it's a pretty significant one too, IMO.
Barrens is not worse than Terramorphic in a deck with CC 2 drops in general, as you seem to be implying. While having Terramorphic makes it easier to have UU on turn 2 and UU on turn 3, Barrens makes it easier to have BB on turn 2 and UU or 1U on turn 3. I'd consider that particular comparison about a wash.
Phit77 is right, Barrens' interaction with CC 2 drops is not a net downside.
But I agree that when it's being used as a generic fixer (rather than a synergy/combo card) the ETBT untapped mode and/or being able to secure an untapped source of a missing color is going to be better. But all of these effects are pretty medium when it comes to just using them at face value. Which is why losing the landfall interactions and the bottomless land chain off Crucible does impact the value.
They all interfere with your ability to curve out if they're actually fixing your mana. But the flexibility of being able to fix every color for you has to come with some sort of a price.
I'll begrudgingly play it alongside the other two, and they can all be boring, middling, maindeckable fixers together.
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Well, I love to draft Grand Coliseum decks, so that's what I'd prefer P1P1. Gemstone mine is really only playable in aggro, and I'd basically never P1P1 it. I'd prefer Ash Barrens to Hub/Bridge though, as well as Wild/Expanse. I think likely not as good P1P1 as City/Confluence either.
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That, in addition to the other advantages, has secured my position that this card is equal to Wilds/Expanse at best, and certainly not better than.
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I will still try to find room for Barrens, but I won't be replacing Wilds or Expanse with it.
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Couldn't you just cycle it for a swamp at the end of your opponent's turn 1? The general point that using it to find a new color reduces your access to colors in play by 1 on that turn is well taken, but I think I might be missing something in this particular example.
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No. I needed the T1 Island to cast Serum Visions (which is actually what drew me the Ash Barrens). T2 was Island into Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. T3 was supposed to be able to secure my 3rd land drop and leave up Mana Drain, but because of how the Barrens works, I was unable to cycle for a Swamp and have UU available if I still wanted to make a land drop. Super awkward.
And it happened again in G3, with a flipped scenario involving two Swamps, a Barrens and a Hymn to Tourach. Because of the way Barrens works, I was unable to get my Island and cast Hymn in the same turn. Again, because I had plays for T1 and T2 that required mana to be spent on things other than the landcycling. Major bummer.
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It strikes me as a better card than evolving wilds in a deck that needs to hit their land drops untapped early to play spells.. speed/tempo is essential... and their fixing requirements aren't too intensive.
IE id rather have this in a ramp/Agro deck than a control deck. Especially artifact ramp decks.
I still prefer the evolving wild variants from a design perspective because I think there are more interesting interactions. If two cards are marginally different in power, Ill add the more interesting card even if I believe it's SLIGHTY weaker.
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Are more interesting interactions than this with life from the Loam IMO
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Edit: I misinterpreted your second pro, which is actually exactly what I just said. In that case the other pro is when you want the untapped mana and the C isn't a problem.
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Ya, and that's actually the biggest selling point, imo. Being able to curve out when you don't need fixing is pretty nice.
The other interactions are important too, and testing will tell whether I like it slightly more or less than Expanse/Wilds, but that may not really be important for us, because I think we can find another cut and run all three.
It's also pretty much impossible to keep a 1-lander with Barrens. Whereas with a 5-6 card post-mulligan hand, an Expanse/Wilds and a great 1cc play (Recall, Birds/Hierarch, Thoughtseize, Vamp/Seal, etc.) ...I can entertain keeping those hands. That's not a huge pro, but it's also not entirely irrelevant.
But it's also worth noting that Barrens can be used for mana in situations where there aren't any basics left to fetch. Likely to be extremely corner-case, but perhaps an important distinction.
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The situation I described is one disadvantage that Barrens has in comparison to Expanse/Wilds. It certainly doesn't imply that it's always worse. And I didn't say it was.
Well, if those differences make it worse it some cases, it can be both. Neither is strictly better than the other, so it's about weighing the pros and cons of each one. Barrens has a lot of advantages over Wilds/Expanse (which have all been discussed). But it also has some deficiencies. And some of those deficiencies are pretty significant to me. The example I provided explains one of those deficiencies, where in those situations, an Expanse/Wilds would've been FAR better for my mana development in those games. Of course that's not every scenario. But there absolutely are situations where a Wilds/Expense will be better for me than the Barrens ...which was the point of the post.
The ultimate point was that it's sometimes better and sometimes worse than Expanse/Wilds, and that it's not just corner-case interactions that separate the effects. There's a legit list of pros and cons for both lands, and after seeing it in action, I think it's much closer to (probably equal to, actually) the other lands than originally projected.
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In the situations I outlined, Wilds/Expanse would be better.
That doesn't mean the "different" way it fixes is always worse, but it does mean that there are some situations that arise where those differences make Barrens worse.
False. There are relevant situations where the way it fixes is worse. In decks playing multiple CC 2-drops, I'd certainly consider playing Wilds over Barrens if I was only going to dedicate a slot to one card.
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Absolutely. For decks without any CC 2-drops, no Crucible of Worlds, no landfall interactions, and it's not a 15-land mana dork deck, it's likely the better land.
There are lots of situations where Barrens is better. But there are also situations where it is worse. I think both the pros and cons are significant, which is why I think the cards are comparable to each other.
You're forgetting the cases where Barrens is worse when you want to play a CC card and a tapped mana fixing land on T3. Which is one reason why it's not automatically better in every other deck.
The T3 2-drop + fixing land is a commonly occurring situation, since it can often be an ideal place in the curve to use an ETBT land. And when that 2-drop is a CC card, I can get punished hard for my 3rd land being a Barrens instead of ...really any other land (including an Expanse/Wilds, which would work fine in that spot). You may not consider those situations important, but it is to me, and I've already seen it matter in multiple occasions in testing.
Barrens may be the better overall card, but it's certainly not automatically "better in every other deck" or "in every other deck it's clearly better" when there are cases where it's not. I just outlined multiple examples where it can punish you for working the way that it does.
You seem to be implying that because Barrens is better in more situations, that its subpar interaction with CC spells on T3 isn't a drawback. It is a drawback. The "different way" that it fixes makes it flat-out worse in some situations. And it's a pretty significant one too, IMO.
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Phit77 is right, Barrens' interaction with CC 2 drops is not a net downside.