My list looks odd by comparason, I don't run or have never played with a lot of the top picks but its not for power reasons so I didn't feel comfortable rating them in my list. Is it correct to do it this way?
Did you intend to rank Banishing Light ahead of Oblivion Ring? Isn't the Ring pretty much strictly better since it's the same effect but it can be abused with instant-speed bounce? I'm in no way criticizing the list, just trying to make sure they were in the order in which you intended them to be...
Did you intend to rank Banishing Light ahead of Oblivion Ring? Isn't the Ring pretty much strictly better since it's the same effect but it can be abused with instant-speed bounce? I'm in no way criticizing the list, just trying to make sure they were in the order in which you intended them to be...
Inversely, if there is only one problem permanent in play and the opponent bounces that permanent in response to the O-Ring casting, then you're most likely losing one of your own things to the O-Ring since it's not a may ability and will therefore have to hit one of your own permanents.
Did you intend to rank Banishing Light ahead of Oblivion Ring? Isn't the Ring pretty much strictly better since it's the same effect but it can be abused with instant-speed bounce? I'm in no way criticizing the list, just trying to make sure they were in the order in which you intended them to be...
Inversely, if there is only one problem permanent in play and the opponent bounces that permanent in response to the O-Ring casting, then you're most likely losing one of your own things to the O-Ring since it's not a may ability and will therefore have to hit one of your own permanents.
I messed up, I was thinking of them as the same card so I didn't consider the order. I have never used the trick with instant speed bounce so I always forget it is a thing.
I will swap them round on my list, although Salmo's point is an interesting corner case I had never considered.
Did you intend to rank Banishing Light ahead of Oblivion Ring? Isn't the Ring pretty much strictly better since it's the same effect but it can be abused with instant-speed bounce? I'm in no way criticizing the list, just trying to make sure they were in the order in which you intended them to be...
Inversely, if there is only one problem permanent in play and the opponent bounces that permanent in response to the O-Ring casting, then you're most likely losing one of your own things to the O-Ring since it's not a may ability and will therefore have to hit one of your own permanents.
I messed up, I was thinking of them as the same card so I didn't consider the order. I have never used the trick with instant speed bounce so I always forget it is a thing.
I will swap them round on my list, although Salmo's point is an interesting corner case I had never considered.
They're both corner cases since there are only so many spells which can abuse the O-Ring trick, though it's easier to build around that interaction than it is to see the one I presented.
01 Balance
02 Armageddon/Ravages of War
03 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
04 Stoneforge Mystic
05 Gideon Jura
06 Moat
07 Land Tax
08 Catastrophe
09 Mother of Runes
10 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
11 Archangel Avacyn
12 Wrath of God
13 Day of Judgment
14 Sun Titan
15 Enlightened Tutor
16 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
17 Council's Judgement
18 Restoration Angel
19 Hero of Bladehold
20 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
It's hard to rate aggressive cards on a level, since they don't really ever take the game over on their own rather than act as part of a critical mass. So the lists feel 'midrangey'.
My list looks odd by comparason, I don't run or have never played with a lot of the top picks but its not for power reasons so I didn't feel comfortable rating them in my list. Is it correct to do it this way?
EDITED
That's fine, as long as you're not deliberately ignoring cards you believe are more powerful than these there's nothing wrong with giving it your best shot.
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My list looks odd by comparason, I don't run or have never played with a lot of the top picks but its not for power reasons so I didn't feel comfortable rating them in my list. Is it correct to do it this way?
EDITED
That's fine, as long as you're not deliberately ignoring cards you believe are more powerful than these there's nothing wrong with giving it your best shot.
I have no experience with her other than people telling she is good, and it seems like groupthink to give a card I have never played spot on my list. I'm not doubting her power, nor excluding her for power level reasons; I have no metric to compare a planeswalker I have never used (and by the looks of other ratings, I under value) to the some of the best removal in the game.
If my votes are breaking the rules (or general voting conventions) I will try and redo it to include the staples I don't run.
I have no experience with her other than people telling she is good, and it seems like groupthink to give a card I have never played spot on my list. I'm not doubting her power, nor excluding her for power level reasons; I have no metric to compare a planeswalker I have never used (and by the looks of other ratings, I under value) to the some of the best removal in the game.
If my votes are breaking the rules (or general voting conventions) I will try and redo it to include the staples I don't run.
Perhaps I don't speak for everyone, but I think I speak for most when I say Don't worry about it, we're happy you're voting and participating Do what you're happy with because at the end of the day we're all a bunch of adults ranking pieces of cardboard on the internet and as long as you're enjoying it and not deliberating doing anything against the spirit of the vote then you're doing it right.
I have no experience with her other than people telling she is good, and it seems like groupthink to give a card I have never played spot on my list. I'm not doubting her power, nor excluding her for power level reasons; I have no metric to compare a planeswalker I have never used (and by the looks of other ratings, I under value) to the some of the best removal in the game.
If my votes are breaking the rules (or general voting conventions) I will try and redo it to include the staples I don't run.
I second Salmo's emotion. You're definitely not breaking any rules here, but if you believe that Elspeth, Knight-Errant belongs on the list more than Spear of Heliod (your bottom card), I'd say you should try to find room for it on your list based on your best judgment. If you really have no idea, don't worry about it and vote based on what you do know. I do recommend getting a copy and trying it out in your cube, you won't have to see it in action too many times to form an opinion for next year.
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Vote on whatever you're comfortable with. If you truly feel like the card is worse because you need the experience in order to evaluate it, than leave it off. But if you feel that the card would assuredly make the list somewhere, I'd give it your best shot to put it where you think it would likely fall. It's not groupthink, it's your own opinion and your own evaluation skills placing the card where you think it would likely fall. But it's certainly better to vote than not to, and we're happy to have you participate!
Also, we had a huge conversation/debate about not including a whole section of cards based on people who don't play them not having enough experience to vote on them so one person not including one white card in their list shouldn't be a big deal here.
1.Balance
2.Armageddon / Ravages of War
3.Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4.Stoneforge Mystic
5.Swords to Plowshares
6.Moat
7.Path to exile
8.Monastery Mentor
9.Elesh norn, Grand cenobite
10.Parralax wave
11.Mother of runes
12.Wrath of god
13.Day of judgement
14.Enlightened tutor
15.Restoration Angel
16.Gideon Jura
17.Hero of bladehold
18.Elspeth, Sun's champion
19.Council's Judgement
20.Unexpectedly absent
Difficult task to pigeonhole cards into order of highest power, as most of these cards are powerful in different archetypes. I'm also not 100% convinced that I truely believe that Balance is more powerful than Armageddon, because a well timed 'geddon ends a game pretty much immediately, but then again... double the cost...
Granted, I don't have a ton of experience with some of the old-border cards and I don't run land destruction in my cube, but I've tried to place those appropriately based on their relative power and things I've read.
I find the new criterium pretty hard to use in practice. An aggro creature might be important to draft P1P1 but it might just be one part of your whole team of one drops. Is that less important then a typical midrange powerhouse? How do you take double or triple casting cost into account in this new evaluation?
This is my first participation in the power rankings. I always enjoyed reading them (actually, I think they were one of the resources that brought me to this forum in the first place). Ranking the cards is quite hard, but I really like this years criteria of overall contribution to wins instead of P1P1-worthyness. I'm happy with my top 20, but the ranking between those 20 could shift a lot depending on my mood (or recent game play experiences).
There are quite a few cards that I think could have made the list, but I don't have enough (or any) experience playing with them and I don't feel comfortable ranking them. Particularly Moat, but also Monastery Mentor; Archangel Avacyn; Thalia, Heretic Cathar; and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. There is one card that I haven't played with yet, but decided to include anyway: Recruiter of the Guard is similar enough to Imperial Recruiter, and surely deserves a spot on my list. Honorable mentions that I just didn't find space for: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite; Cloudgoat Ranger; and aggro one drops (Kytheon, Hero of Akros; Student of Warfare).
How do you take double or triple casting cost into account in this new evaluation?
The same way you evaluate it when determining your cube construction. Is the card so good that it justifies the difficult cost? Maindeck percentage is part of card evaluation, but it's not the end-all for making a card good or not. For example, a card like Rofellos would certainly make my list still. Whereas a card like Geralf's Messenger probably wouldn't. It's up to each individual cube manager to decide how CC and CCC costs impact your rankings.
The new system is pretty close to WAR (wins above replacement). How good is card X compared to other cards of its ilk? If it's largely replaceable, and not that much better than similar effects, its stock will go down. When the card is the absolute best at what it does, and replacing it with a "replacement-level" effect of the same type would really damage the quality of your deck, you know you have something special. So it doesn't matter what theater you're discussing, it's just a matter of how much better the card is than the competition.
How do you take double or triple casting cost into account in this new evaluation?
The same way you evaluate it when determining your cube construction. Is the card so good that it justifies the difficult cost? Maindeck percentage is part of card evaluation, but it's not the end-all for making a card good or not. For example, a card like Rofellos would certainly make my list still. Whereas a card like Geralf's Messenger probably wouldn't. It's up to each individual cube manager to decide how CC and CCC costs impact your rankings.
The new system is pretty close to WAR (wins above replacement). How good is card X compared to other cards of its ilk? If it's largely replaceable, and not that much better than similar effects, its stock will go down. When the card is the absolute best at what it does, and replacing it with a "replacement-level" effect of the same type would really damage the quality of your deck, you know you have something special. So it doesn't matter what theater you're discussing, it's just a matter of how much better the card is than the competition.
I find the new criterium pretty hard to use in practice. An aggro creature might be important to draft P1P1 but it might just be one part of your whole team of one drops. Is that less important then a typical midrange powerhouse? How do you take double or triple casting cost into account in this new evaluation?
How do you take double or triple casting cost into account in this new evaluation?
The same way you evaluate it when determining your cube construction. Is the card so good that it justifies the difficult cost? Maindeck percentage is part of card evaluation, but it's not the end-all for making a card good or not. For example, a card like Rofellos would certainly make my list still. Whereas a card like Geralf's Messenger probably wouldn't. It's up to each individual cube manager to decide how CC and CCC costs impact your rankings.
The new system is pretty close to WAR (wins above replacement). How good is card X compared to other cards of its ilk? If it's largely replaceable, and not that much better than similar effects, its stock will go down. When the card is the absolute best at what it does, and replacing it with a "replacement-level" effect of the same type would really damage the quality of your deck, you know you have something special. So it doesn't matter what theater you're discussing, it's just a matter of how much better the card is than the competition.
This is great discussion, but let's please keep it to the main Power Rankings thread, where I'll be posting my own thoughts on this.
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2. Balance
3. Swords to Plowshares
4. Path to exile
5. Wrath of God
6. Day of judgement
7. Mother of Runes
8. Oblivion Ring
9. Banishing Light
10. Sun Titan
11. Kythieon, Hero of Akros
12. Cloud Goat Ranger
13. Mirror Entity
14. Austere Command
15. Porcelain Legionnaire
16. Flickerwisp
17. Increasing Devotion
18. Disenchant
19. Honor of the Pure
10. Spear of Heliod
My list looks odd by comparason, I don't run or have never played with a lot of the top picks but its not for power reasons so I didn't feel comfortable rating them in my list. Is it correct to do it this way?
EDITED
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Inversely, if there is only one problem permanent in play and the opponent bounces that permanent in response to the O-Ring casting, then you're most likely losing one of your own things to the O-Ring since it's not a may ability and will therefore have to hit one of your own permanents.
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I messed up, I was thinking of them as the same card so I didn't consider the order. I have never used the trick with instant speed bounce so I always forget it is a thing.
I will swap them round on my list, although Salmo's point is an interesting corner case I had never considered.
They're both corner cases since there are only so many spells which can abuse the O-Ring trick, though it's easier to build around that interaction than it is to see the one I presented.
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02 Armageddon/Ravages of War
03 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
04 Stoneforge Mystic
05 Gideon Jura
06 Moat
07 Land Tax
08 Catastrophe
09 Mother of Runes
10 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
11 Archangel Avacyn
12 Wrath of God
13 Day of Judgment
14 Sun Titan
15 Enlightened Tutor
16 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
17 Council's Judgement
18 Restoration Angel
19 Hero of Bladehold
20 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
It's hard to rate aggressive cards on a level, since they don't really ever take the game over on their own rather than act as part of a critical mass. So the lists feel 'midrangey'.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That's fine, as long as you're not deliberately ignoring cards you believe are more powerful than these there's nothing wrong with giving it your best shot.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Well I believe Elspeth, Knight Errant would push Spear of Heliod off the list but I have no idea of how it rates against Armageddon.
I have no experience with her other than people telling she is good, and it seems like groupthink to give a card I have never played spot on my list. I'm not doubting her power, nor excluding her for power level reasons; I have no metric to compare a planeswalker I have never used (and by the looks of other ratings, I under value) to the some of the best removal in the game.
If my votes are breaking the rules (or general voting conventions) I will try and redo it to include the staples I don't run.
Perhaps I don't speak for everyone, but I think I speak for most when I say Don't worry about it, we're happy you're voting and participating
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
That's fine, there are plenty of forum members who disagree with each other about that.
I second Salmo's emotion. You're definitely not breaking any rules here, but if you believe that Elspeth, Knight-Errant belongs on the list more than Spear of Heliod (your bottom card), I'd say you should try to find room for it on your list based on your best judgment. If you really have no idea, don't worry about it and vote based on what you do know. I do recommend getting a copy and trying it out in your cube, you won't have to see it in action too many times to form an opinion for next year.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
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1.Balance
2.Armageddon / Ravages of War
3.Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4.Stoneforge Mystic
5.Swords to Plowshares
6.Moat
7.Path to exile
8.Monastery Mentor
9.Elesh norn, Grand cenobite
10.Parralax wave
11.Mother of runes
12.Wrath of god
13.Day of judgement
14.Enlightened tutor
15.Restoration Angel
16.Gideon Jura
17.Hero of bladehold
18.Elspeth, Sun's champion
19.Council's Judgement
20.Unexpectedly absent
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Difficult task to pigeonhole cards into order of highest power, as most of these cards are powerful in different archetypes. I'm also not 100% convinced that I truely believe that Balance is more powerful than Armageddon, because a well timed 'geddon ends a game pretty much immediately, but then again... double the cost...
This is hard.
02 Armageddon
03 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
04 Stoneforge Mystic
05 Gideon Jura
06 Mother of Runes
07 Monastery Mentor
08 Swords to Plowshares
09 Path to Exile
10 Wrath of God
11 Day of Judgment
12 Moat
13 Land Tax
14 Sun Titan
15 Reveillark
16 Enlightened Tutor
17 Recruiter of the Guard
18 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
19 Hero of Bladehold
20 Catastrophe
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
2 Balance
3 Armageddon
4 Swords to Plowshares
5 Path to Exile
6 Mother of Runes
7 Moat
8 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
9 Wrath of God
10 Day of Judgment
11 Stoneforge Mystic
12 Restoration Angel
13 Hero of Bladehold
14 Land Tax
15 Enlightened Tutor
16 Council's Judgment
17 Champion of the Parish
18 Baneslayer Angel
19 Monastery Mentor
20 Oblivion Ring
I find the new criterium pretty hard to use in practice. An aggro creature might be important to draft P1P1 but it might just be one part of your whole team of one drops. Is that less important then a typical midrange powerhouse? How do you take double or triple casting cost into account in this new evaluation?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
This is my first participation in the power rankings. I always enjoyed reading them (actually, I think they were one of the resources that brought me to this forum in the first place). Ranking the cards is quite hard, but I really like this years criteria of overall contribution to wins instead of P1P1-worthyness. I'm happy with my top 20, but the ranking between those 20 could shift a lot depending on my mood (or recent game play experiences).
There are quite a few cards that I think could have made the list, but I don't have enough (or any) experience playing with them and I don't feel comfortable ranking them. Particularly Moat, but also Monastery Mentor; Archangel Avacyn; Thalia, Heretic Cathar; and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. There is one card that I haven't played with yet, but decided to include anyway: Recruiter of the Guard is similar enough to Imperial Recruiter, and surely deserves a spot on my list. Honorable mentions that I just didn't find space for: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite; Cloudgoat Ranger; and aggro one drops (Kytheon, Hero of Akros; Student of Warfare).
The same way you evaluate it when determining your cube construction. Is the card so good that it justifies the difficult cost? Maindeck percentage is part of card evaluation, but it's not the end-all for making a card good or not. For example, a card like Rofellos would certainly make my list still. Whereas a card like Geralf's Messenger probably wouldn't. It's up to each individual cube manager to decide how CC and CCC costs impact your rankings.
The new system is pretty close to WAR (wins above replacement). How good is card X compared to other cards of its ilk? If it's largely replaceable, and not that much better than similar effects, its stock will go down. When the card is the absolute best at what it does, and replacing it with a "replacement-level" effect of the same type would really damage the quality of your deck, you know you have something special. So it doesn't matter what theater you're discussing, it's just a matter of how much better the card is than the competition.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The same way you evaluate it when determining your cube construction. Is the card so good that it justifies the difficult cost? Maindeck percentage is part of card evaluation, but it's not the end-all for making a card good or not. For example, a card like Rofellos would certainly make my list still. Whereas a card like Geralf's Messenger probably wouldn't. It's up to each individual cube manager to decide how CC and CCC costs impact your rankings.
The new system is pretty close to WAR (wins above replacement). How good is card X compared to other cards of its ilk? If it's largely replaceable, and not that much better than similar effects, its stock will go down. When the card is the absolute best at what it does, and replacing it with a "replacement-level" effect of the same type would really damage the quality of your deck, you know you have something special. So it doesn't matter what theater you're discussing, it's just a matter of how much better the card is than the competition.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This is great discussion, but let's please keep it to the main Power Rankings thread, where I'll be posting my own thoughts on this.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
02 Armageddon
03 Stoneforge Mystic
04 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
05 Gideon Jura
06 Moat
07 Wrath of God
08 Day of Judgment
09 Reveillark
10 Monastery Mentor
11 Swords to Plowshares
12 Path to Exile
13 Land Tax
14 Restoration Angel
15 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
16 Parallax Wave
17 Recruiter of the Guard
18 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
19 Cloudgoat Ranger
20 Mother of Runes
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
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1. Swords to Plowshares
2. Path to Exile
3. Wrath of God
4. Balance
5. Council's Judgement
6. Archangel Avacyn
7. Hero of Bladehold
8. Restoration Angel
9. Blade Splicer
10. Brimaz, King of Oreskos
11. Angel of Invention
12. Secure the Wastes
13. Recruiter of the Guard
14. Thalia, Heretic Cathar
15. Oblivion Ring
16. Archangel of Thune
17. Cataclysmic Gearhulk
18. Selfless Spirit
19. Kytheon, Hero of Akros
20. Cloudshift
01 Balance
02 Armageddon (Ravages of War)
03 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
04 Gideon Jura
05 Stoneforge Mystic
06 Moat
07 Monastery Mentor
08 Reveillark
09 Catastrophe
10 Swords to Plowshares
11 Path to Exile
12 Wrath of God
13 Day of Judgment
14 Land Tax
15 Enlightened Tutor
16 Recruiter of the Guard
17 Restoration Angel
18 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
19 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
20 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
White Results are up and Blue Voting will be posted within a few hours....
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