Based on these results I won't be participating in or even monitoring this project since it has opted for a spirit of exclusion which is contrary to the very idea of Cube Magic.
I'm holding off on posting the 2nd straw poll for the moment, so that the people who are interested in this category can give me a clearer picture of what it should include, and how they would like to see this handled. I'll give you a day or so to hash it out before I post the straw poll. One thing I insist on is that the actual voting and ranking of the 12th category be done after the Overall rankings have concluded to avoid potential confusion that the excluded cards might be able to be included in the Overall vote. I also think the straw poll shouldn't be gauging community support or opposition to the 12th category as a project, but interest in participation. If more than, say, 10-15 people plan to actually contribute to and vote in a 12th category the "no" votes don't really matter and we should go ahead, but if less than that plan to participate I think we can safely consider that portion of this project a non-starter.
I would love to see a 12th category where everyone who is a fan of these types of cards (ie everything that would go into a separate module to include when you want to draft 'out of the ordinary' cards). However it seems that we are divided into two groups: those that separate these types of cards from the main list and those that don't. For those that don't, it seems that they don't see the value in comparing all of these together in the same vote against each other and likely wouldn't participate in such a vote. For those that do, there's probably not enough to warrant the vote. I do separate them, but I don't run Un-cards, I don't run most of the actual Conspiracies, and I've since cut several of the drafts matter constructs for just being constant undesirable 15th picks. I'd be interested in seeing how the community ranked all of these cards, but I don't think there's enough people who would want to participate.
As for justification for voting to exclude them from the main top 20 lists, I'll just say it again. I have no idea how to rank these cards against other cards in the same section. I don't know which Un cards are considered good (or why) and I'd be relying solely on other voters to get an idea of where they should be ranked. I don't want my entries to be partially made up of guesses. I'd rather feel confident about where I'm ranking these cards because I have actual experience with them.
Thanks again to Spike Rogue and Allred123 for volunteering their time to do this project. It's a time consuming and lengthy process, and you have to deal with prima donna cube managers. I look forward to creating lists that abide by the results of our community vote, and can't wait to see the project get off the ground. Cheers!
Wow, I've never seen that emoticon before, but something tells me I'll see it or maybe even use it myself before this project is over....
In all seriousness, I understand that many people are disappointed with at least some of the results of the straw poll, and that's the nature of democracy: everybody gets a voice, but nobody gets everything they want. However, as far as I'm concerned the result of that vote is the end of discussion for whether or not they will be included in the main Power Rankings for this year. I hope that disagreement with the majority on any of these points will not discourage anyone from participating in the project, and in good faith. We may well want to revisit one or more of those categories next year, but let's move on with this year's vote and then after the results are in we can Ponder what we might do differently in the future over the course of the next year.
As for the draft-matters cards that were voted on for inclusion, I think it might be helpful to highlight what some of the strongest candidates are so that anyone having trouble evaluating them can read up on how they've fit in other members' cubes and perhaps even test them out in their own cubes between now and voting time.
Paliano, the High City - This made last year's top 20 in Lands, and I'd say nothing better has been printed since. My experiences with it have been that it fairly consistently plays as at least a dual land with no downside, and often a tri-land in 3 colors you want that ETBs untapped. SCD thread here.
Arcane Savant - ETB effect creatures are great, one that has the potential to have that effect be any instant or sorcery from the cube even better. It can be a blue Nekrataal, Wrath of God, Armageddon on a stick, Wildfire, or even a buyback Upheaval. Blue is the most competitive color, but this still looks like a very strong contender.SCD thread here.
Volatile Chimera - A 3-drop that can attack as a Titan or an Eldrazi? Easily the most powerful red 3 ever printed. SCD thread here.
There are 11 artifact creatures from the original Conspiracy set that reference the draft. The MCD thread for discussion of them is here, and they were also recently discussed here. The colorless section is probably the single hardest category to crack for any card, but here are the best of the bunch in alphabetical order:
Canal Dredger adds an additional 7-21 cards to your draft pool and last picks can only be so bad in a traditional cube. SCD thread here.
Cogwork Librarian isn't flashy and the body's useless, but picking it early enough in the draft invariably improves the card quality of the draft pool of anyone who gets it. The power level here is a bit more subtle, but real IMHO. FWIW, this was definitely the most popular of the among people I've played it with. SCD thread here.
Deal Broker is a quite playable looter on a defensive body on top of letting you turn an off-color last pick from the draft into a playable. Of all the Constructs, it sees the most maindeck play in my experience. SCD thread here.
Lore Seeker gives you an extra first pick and the body can work as 2-drop filler in a pinch. SCD thread here.
Based on these results I won't be participating in or even monitoring this project since it has opted for a spirit of exclusion which is contrary to the very idea of Cube Magic.
That's incredibly wrong--there are pauper/peasant cubes, unpowered cubes, set-based cubes, mono blue cubes, all with a very specific amount of spots slotted. Cube is by nature based on exclusion, as you can't include everything.
Regicide should also be added to that list of draft matters cards. It's been a solid removal spell for us so far. I don't know of it'll make a black top 20 list, but it's worth mentioning.
Based on these results I won't be participating in or even monitoring this project since it has opted for a spirit of exclusion which is contrary to the very idea of Cube Magic.
That's incredibly wrong--there are pauper/peasant cubes, unpowered cubes, set-based cubes, mono blue cubes, all with a very specific amount of spots slotted. Cube is by nature based on exclusion, as you can't include everything.
Very true. Also, even if things aren't 100% how anyone wants them to be (isn't that what a compromise is?) the best thing to do is soldier on and be a good sport. Do the best you can with the parameters given!
The 2nd Straw Poll on creating an additional Power Rankings category/addendum for non-traditional cards is now open. Please vote on and discuss this issue there. You have 48 hours to cast your vote.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Wow, making that top 20 for white was hard. I went over my cube list, looked at the old general results and at my last vote and could make a top 25 without much trouble. But cutting those 25 cards down to 20 was really hard. I didn't want to cut any of them! They all deserved a rank, but there was just not enough space.
Also, the new ranking criterium had a noticeable effect on certain cards. Some cards really dropped in the ranking when only considering how powerful they are in the game, rather than how likely I would first pick them. Splashable, universally playable removal really fell down the list. I would pick those very highly in draft, because they will most certainly see play in my deck, no matter how the draft goes. During gameplay however, there are just more powerful cards though. I wonder if others feel the same way and notice the same effect? I mean, as far as I see it, this was actually one of the main reasons to change the ranking criterium.
I still rate efficient and versatile removal quite highly, as being able to eliminate a threat that will otherwise kill you goes a long way towards turning losses into wins, especially when you're able to do it for a single mana at instant speed. I feel a lot better about any white deck's chances to win when I have Path and/or Plow and at least one of the Vindicate effects.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
1-for-1 removal went up in my rankings because we're not using the P1P1 metric this year. Great cube cards, bad 1st picks.
Again, I think it's because the metric has always been misapplied by voters in the past, so I'd expect the Top 20 lists to correctly look as they always have. I think if we would've kept the P1P1 metric, the voting should've looked a lot different than it used to.
1-for-1 removal went up in my rankings because we're not using the P1P1 metric this year. Great cube cards, bad 1st picks.
Again, I think it's because the metric has always been misapplied by voters in the past, so I'd expect the Top 20 lists to correctly look as they always have. I think if we would've kept the P1P1 metric, the voting should've looked a lot different than it used to.
I agree with you on removal, but your second point has me scratching my head. How would not changing the metric make the voting look different? At any rate, I think we are seeing a real difference. Based on early results, the biggest one is that the Wraths seem to have gone up.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
This year we have all the manlands. Shouldn't the cycle be under lands? I think most people run all 10 and thus it makes more sense to vote for them compared to the other dual land cycles?
Under existing guidelines, the multicolored activation cost puts them in Guild. I think if anything, having the full cycle leaves us better off having them in Guild instead of Land because most of them won't crack the top 20 there individually and the cycle is way too diverse to rank them as a cycle. Some people do only run part of the cycle and require them to compete with Guild spells (particularly people who run smaller cubes), so for them it will probably be very helpful to see how they compete in their respective guilds.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
How would not changing the metric make the voting look different?
Eventually, people would start to evaluate the metric correctly and vote accordingly. I know my lists would've looked dramatically different than they have in the past, because I was planning on actually taking the P1P1 metric to heart instead of just voting on the 20 best cards (which is what voters have historically done anyways). The current voting metrics are actually set up better to see results that are in-line with our historical voting than the old metric. I expect the voting to finally be accurate to the metric that's outlined, and the results should be strikingly similar to results on the inaccurately-voted-on lists of old.
Basically, the reason why I wanted to change the metric is because I wanted the lists to create results similar to how they've historically looked ...before people caught on and actually started using P1P1 value as the only metric. And FWIW, I'm glad it worked.
The community has spoken! The addendum to the Power Rankings for non-traditional cards otherwise excluded from the Rankings has been approved by a vote of 10-7. I've added two new poll questions about that addendum to address the question of whether that addendum should consist of one category or two, and another to determine the standard for ranking those cards. If you're planning to participate, please discuss and vote on this here.
I'm leaving this poll open until next Monday, October 17th. Take your time to hash this out, guys.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
1-for-1 removal went up in my rankings because we're not using the P1P1 metric this year. Great cube cards, bad 1st picks.
It seems that we have completely different evaluations for what qualifies as a good first pick. Good thing we changed the voting metric, I guess. The P1P1 metric only appeared to be objective, but when cubists can't even agree on what makes a good first pick in cube, it just shows that it was just as - if not more - subjective than the new "just rank by perceived power level" metric.
Speaking of perceived power level: I am the only one who has Dictate of Heliod in their top 20 so far? Whaaat? That card is super strong. Few white cards have such a direct relation between playing them and winning the game as Dictate has. Just as Armageddon is a win button if you are ahead on board, Dictate is a win button if you hav 3+ creatures out. The difference to Armageddon is that Dictate can also bring you back into the game when you are behind. A fantastic card that seems to be seriously undervalued.
As a combat trick, Dictate competes with Avacyn, as an anthem it competes with Angel of Invention. Swingy card, but creatures are more versatile overall.
It seems that we have completely different evaluations for what qualifies as a good first pick. Good thing we changed the voting metric, I guess. The P1P1 metric only appeared to be objective, but when cubists can't even agree on what makes a good first pick in cube, it just shows that it was just as - if not more - subjective than the new "just rank by perceived power level" metric.
I really agree with you here. My view is that if you think cheap spot removal contributes more heavily to game wins than other cards, you should be taking it more highly P1P1, especially since it goes in any deck. Where the metrics diverge in my opinion is on more narrow build-around cards. Picking up Rofellos or Tinker P1P1 is going to contribute to a lot of wins, but if they show up in pack 3 they might not even be maindeck material. I'm not sure what that should mean in terms of "how effectively they contribute to game wins".
Speaking of perceived power level: I am the only one who has Dictate of Heliod in their top 20 so far? Whaaat? That card is super strong. Few white cards have such a direct relation between playing them and winning the game as Dictate has. Just as Armageddon is a win button if you are ahead on board, Dictate is a win button if you hav 3+ creatures out. The difference to Armageddon is that Dictate can also bring you back into the game when you are behind. A fantastic card that seems to be seriously undervalued.
Dictate is a card that I recently added back to my list to give it another try, but I found it underwhelming in the past. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't seen the card get that much love here.
Speaking of perceived power level: I am the only one who has Dictate of Heliod in their top 20 so far? Whaaat? That card is super strong. Few white cards have such a direct relation between playing them and winning the game as Dictate has. Just as Armageddon is a win button if you are ahead on board, Dictate is a win button if you hav 3+ creatures out. The difference to Armageddon is that Dictate can also bring you back into the game when you are behind. A fantastic card that seems to be seriously undervalued.
The surprise/flash factor didn't make up for it costing 5, plus there are already a decent amount of anthem effects that this one seemed worse when those were so much cheaper/had other utility (i.e. Gideon) and when you're putting those anthems into decks with 16 lands it makes Dictate seem that much worse. Never really did anything for us, cut and not really looking back.
What I find weird about the white rankings is the low evaluation of Moat, which has also been the case in the past. That card in a control deck can just be game over if it's not removed, and enchantments are pretty hard to remove, especially if you don't need to spend counterspells on anything that's not enchantment removal.
I agree, and I think part of that may be due to the cost and overall lack of exposure due to that. Moat is a brutal card both in application and price.
I would love to see a 12th category where everyone who is a fan of these types of cards (ie everything that would go into a separate module to include when you want to draft 'out of the ordinary' cards). However it seems that we are divided into two groups: those that separate these types of cards from the main list and those that don't. For those that don't, it seems that they don't see the value in comparing all of these together in the same vote against each other and likely wouldn't participate in such a vote. For those that do, there's probably not enough to warrant the vote. I do separate them, but I don't run Un-cards, I don't run most of the actual Conspiracies, and I've since cut several of the drafts matter constructs for just being constant undesirable 15th picks. I'd be interested in seeing how the community ranked all of these cards, but I don't think there's enough people who would want to participate.
As for justification for voting to exclude them from the main top 20 lists, I'll just say it again. I have no idea how to rank these cards against other cards in the same section. I don't know which Un cards are considered good (or why) and I'd be relying solely on other voters to get an idea of where they should be ranked. I don't want my entries to be partially made up of guesses. I'd rather feel confident about where I'm ranking these cards because I have actual experience with them.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Wow, I've never seen that emoticon before, but something tells me I'll see it or maybe even use it myself before this project is over....
In all seriousness, I understand that many people are disappointed with at least some of the results of the straw poll, and that's the nature of democracy: everybody gets a voice, but nobody gets everything they want. However, as far as I'm concerned the result of that vote is the end of discussion for whether or not they will be included in the main Power Rankings for this year. I hope that disagreement with the majority on any of these points will not discourage anyone from participating in the project, and in good faith. We may well want to revisit one or more of those categories next year, but let's move on with this year's vote and then after the results are in we can Ponder what we might do differently in the future over the course of the next year.
As for the draft-matters cards that were voted on for inclusion, I think it might be helpful to highlight what some of the strongest candidates are so that anyone having trouble evaluating them can read up on how they've fit in other members' cubes and perhaps even test them out in their own cubes between now and voting time.
Paliano, the High City - This made last year's top 20 in Lands, and I'd say nothing better has been printed since. My experiences with it have been that it fairly consistently plays as at least a dual land with no downside, and often a tri-land in 3 colors you want that ETBs untapped. SCD thread here.
Arcane Savant - ETB effect creatures are great, one that has the potential to have that effect be any instant or sorcery from the cube even better. It can be a blue Nekrataal, Wrath of God, Armageddon on a stick, Wildfire, or even a buyback Upheaval. Blue is the most competitive color, but this still looks like a very strong contender.SCD thread here.
Regicide - 75% of Doom Blade for 1/2 the mana. SCD thread here.
Volatile Chimera - A 3-drop that can attack as a Titan or an Eldrazi? Easily the most powerful red 3 ever printed. SCD thread here.
There are 11 artifact creatures from the original Conspiracy set that reference the draft. The MCD thread for discussion of them is here, and they were also recently discussed here. The colorless section is probably the single hardest category to crack for any card, but here are the best of the bunch in alphabetical order:
Æther Searcher has been a strong Tinker/reanimation target. SCD thread here.
Canal Dredger adds an additional 7-21 cards to your draft pool and last picks can only be so bad in a traditional cube. SCD thread here.
Cogwork Librarian isn't flashy and the body's useless, but picking it early enough in the draft invariably improves the card quality of the draft pool of anyone who gets it. The power level here is a bit more subtle, but real IMHO. FWIW, this was definitely the most popular of the among people I've played it with. SCD thread here.
Deal Broker is a quite playable looter on a defensive body on top of letting you turn an off-color last pick from the draft into a playable. Of all the Constructs, it sees the most maindeck play in my experience. SCD thread here.
Lore Seeker gives you an extra first pick and the body can work as 2-drop filler in a pinch. SCD thread here.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
That's incredibly wrong--there are pauper/peasant cubes, unpowered cubes, set-based cubes, mono blue cubes, all with a very specific amount of spots slotted. Cube is by nature based on exclusion, as you can't include everything.
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Very true. Also, even if things aren't 100% how anyone wants them to be (isn't that what a compromise is?) the best thing to do is soldier on and be a good sport. Do the best you can with the parameters given!
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450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Also, the new ranking criterium had a noticeable effect on certain cards. Some cards really dropped in the ranking when only considering how powerful they are in the game, rather than how likely I would first pick them. Splashable, universally playable removal really fell down the list. I would pick those very highly in draft, because they will most certainly see play in my deck, no matter how the draft goes. During gameplay however, there are just more powerful cards though. I wonder if others feel the same way and notice the same effect? I mean, as far as I see it, this was actually one of the main reasons to change the ranking criterium.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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Again, I think it's because the metric has always been misapplied by voters in the past, so I'd expect the Top 20 lists to correctly look as they always have. I think if we would've kept the P1P1 metric, the voting should've looked a lot different than it used to.
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I agree with you on removal, but your second point has me scratching my head. How would not changing the metric make the voting look different? At any rate, I think we are seeing a real difference. Based on early results, the biggest one is that the Wraths seem to have gone up.
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450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Eventually, people would start to evaluate the metric correctly and vote accordingly. I know my lists would've looked dramatically different than they have in the past, because I was planning on actually taking the P1P1 metric to heart instead of just voting on the 20 best cards (which is what voters have historically done anyways). The current voting metrics are actually set up better to see results that are in-line with our historical voting than the old metric. I expect the voting to finally be accurate to the metric that's outlined, and the results should be strikingly similar to results on the inaccurately-voted-on lists of old.
Basically, the reason why I wanted to change the metric is because I wanted the lists to create results similar to how they've historically looked ...before people caught on and actually started using P1P1 value as the only metric. And FWIW, I'm glad it worked.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm leaving this poll open until next Monday, October 17th. Take your time to hash this out, guys.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Speaking of perceived power level: I am the only one who has Dictate of Heliod in their top 20 so far? Whaaat? That card is super strong. Few white cards have such a direct relation between playing them and winning the game as Dictate has. Just as Armageddon is a win button if you are ahead on board, Dictate is a win button if you hav 3+ creatures out. The difference to Armageddon is that Dictate can also bring you back into the game when you are behind. A fantastic card that seems to be seriously undervalued.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Dictate is a card that I recently added back to my list to give it another try, but I found it underwhelming in the past. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't seen the card get that much love here.
The surprise/flash factor didn't make up for it costing 5, plus there are already a decent amount of anthem effects that this one seemed worse when those were so much cheaper/had other utility (i.e. Gideon) and when you're putting those anthems into decks with 16 lands it makes Dictate seem that much worse. Never really did anything for us, cut and not really looking back.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic