I totally agree that conspiracies and un-cards shouldn't be lumped together with "normal" cards. Especially conspiracies, because they are (A) too different from artifacts and other colorless cards and (B) would just eat away a good chunk of that section. However, I would just include draft-matter cards (Arcane Savant, Deal Broker, Paliano, the High City, etc.) according to their costs. Those are (A) much closer to normal Magic cards and (B) would only take up one or two slots in their respective rankings.
Bottom line: If conspiracies would be voted for in the normal "articaft/colorless" section, it would completely warp that section, to the detriment of the normal colorless cards. I am strongly against doing that. Conspiracies need to go into their own section. Maybe with un-cards, maybe with draft-matter cards. But not with normal artifacts and colorles cards.
Just remember that forum projects die in two different ways: 1) When you talk the details to death, and 2) When the project takes too long to complete and everyone loses interest. I'm pretty much OK with anything as long as we avoid both of those.
I would be okay voting for the draft-altering constructs in their respective sections, and just having a section for Un-/Conspiracy cards in a different section. They're simply not going to get enough exposure when they're mixed in with the other cards, and at least giving them their own section will give them the votes they deserve.
Interestingly enough, using a Non-Vintage Legal section covers all of those kinds of cards in one place. It would allow players to vote on Arcane Savant in their blue section (since it is vintage legal), but it would keep the conspiracies from competing against artifacts.
I could see the argument for separating conspiracies and Cogwork Librarian-style draft-affecting cards into their own color section but including them in the overall ranking. If you're talking about putting unglued/unhinged cards and Arcane Savant-style draft-matters cards into that section, or excluding conspiracies from the overall ranking, then you're just approaching this from an intellectually dishonest perspective of "I don't play with these cards so I don't want to see them in the rankings".
There is some value to that if we just acknowledge that most people here are really bad at evaluating cards that they haven't played with enough, so this is only a meaningful ranking among cards that are in almost everyone's cubes. Given last year's rankings, that's pretty true.
In any case, having people who will exclude cards because they don't play them and counting those as 0 votes doesn't make sense. I'd suggest a two-stage process where you gather cards to be ranked and then have people rank them completely.
I'd like to keep the Conspiracy/Un-cards/Draft Matters/etc. separate because to many players they don't feel like playing actual Magic. They are excluded from cubes on that basis. I think even most of us that run them have them in a separate module we can add in when our group feels like it. They violate some of the fundamental ways cards are played and drafted and seem outside the normal scope of Magic. I strongly want them to be voted on separately. If we really want to rank them alongside other cards, I don't think there's much problem with having two final lists, one with these cards and one without. Magic players tend to like to rank things, so it's not like it will be a burden.
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You strongly think that Blast from the Past doesn't feel like playing actual magic cards?
I am fine with moving Conspiracies to their own sections but the Uncards don't play that different. Most uncards are only uncards until Maro thinks of a way to get them into black bordered magic.
I don't agree with the comparison of Conspiracies to planeswalkers at all. This is mostly because, even though planeswalkers were a new card type for cubes and initially hard to evaluate, there weren't many (any?) people choosing to have a separate "planeswalker module" that they included sometimes. More often than not the cards we're referencing here are not included in main lists and are not competing for the same slots as other cards in those sections. I don't see the point in ranking them against cards that they don't normally compete with.
Planeswalkers are also something that most players got familiar with in a hurry because they became legal in every format, and basically necessary in Standard. Conspiracies and un-cards don't have that going for them.
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1) I STRONGLY believe the voting should be on vintage legal cards only, no conspiracies/draft matters.
2)I think noble hierarch should be classified as green. I don't buy the "optimal color combination" argument. By that logic, wild mongrol is more of a golgari card than noble hierarch is a bant card. I don't care that much tho...
3)Agree with changing the P1P1 criteria to the definitions floating above.
4)I don't think there's a good solution, but some cards that are great in powered cubes are much worse in non-powered cubes.
IE Dack Fayden is busted in powered cube, but medium/good in unpowered.. Ancient grudge is opressive in powered and unplayable in unpowered.
When people are voting on artifacts, it's kind of weird of a bunch of people are not voting on power while others are...
Leads to inaccurate voting
Wise words, Salmo. I promised a few days for discussion and debate, and we've had them. Based on the discussion in this thread I think it's safe to say that there's pretty broad agreement on the following:
1. FRF tri-brids will be categorized by all of tbe colors in their casting and activation costs. This means they will all be voted on as 3+ color cards.
5. All cards with 3 or more colors in their casting costs and/or activation costs will be voted on in a single category of 20 cards.
6. Cards are now being voted on and ranked Power Rankings based on how effectively they contribute to winning games when included in a traditional cube environment. The old "P1P1" metric is now scrapped.
Points 2 and 4 have proven more contentious, so I will be putting them to a separate straw-poll vote in another thread. Point 2 is a simple binary question, but discussion on Point 4 shows that we're really talking about 3 different types of cards: Conspiracies like Power Play and Double Stroke, draft-referencing cards like Arcane Savant and Deal Broker, and silver-bordered cards like City of Ass and Blast From the Past. We'll vote on whether or not to include each of these types of cards in a simple yes/no vote. If the community votes "no" on any of these categories, it will not be ranked in the Power Rankings at all. However, after the Power Rankings conclude I may put together a separate project to gauge their popularity if there is interest. There will be a 2-day time limit to give us enough time to draft the final Power Rankings opening posts before voting begins.
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I don't buy the "optimal color combination" argument. By that logic, wild mongrol is more of a golgari card than noble hierarch is a bant card.
No, it's not ideal color combination. It's intrinsically best. The difference is an intrinsic quality that pairs a card with a color identity, not a contextual quality.
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Why vintage? Why not standard? Or Onslaught block? Or ooh, cards that can be drafted? Yeah, that one seems to make sense.
Because Vintage allows you to use the full Magic card pool. The only cards that are banned in Vintage are the cards that aren't really real Magic cards. So using a Vintage banned list isn't as arbitrary as you seem to imply here.
Excited to help out with this, I have used previous years results to help build my cube or get an idea of what I might be missing out. Thanks to all those who are organising this. Apologies for typos, typing quickly on the down low in work.
1. Categorize the Fate Reforged tri-brids like Soulfire Grandmaster as mono-colored cards based on their casting costs.
I prefer the tribrids in there base colour, thats where I slot them and it saves trouble finding other tri colour cards. I can completely see why someone more organised than me would call it 3 colours, but I usually think of them as 2 coloured cards when drafting and its base colour when I'm slotting it into cube.
2. Categorize cards with colored casting costs that produce off-colored mana (e.g. Noble Hierarch) by their casting cost.
Yes, this makes the most sense to me. I ran Ancvyns pilgrim a while ago and having to call it a sylesnia card seems silly to me, it is a green card that happens to make white mana.
3. Categorize cards with costs requiring C mana with other colorless cards.
Makes sense to me for creatures but i would just call the lands lands
4. Create a 12th category for Un-cards, Conspiracies, and draft-matters cards from the Conspiracy sets.
I would give the conspiracies their own section but everything else i would put in its colour.
5. Change the voting for Shards and Wedges from a top 3-5 for each to a Top 10 or 20 with all cards that are 3+ colours.
I think this seems like a lot for each list considering most cubes run few 3+ colour cards. Even with reclassifying tribrids etc. 10 seems like a lot.
6. Change the standard for voting from "cards you are most likely to draft Pack 1 Pick 1 out of a cube booster" to "best" or "most powerful" cube cards.
Makes sense to me, in fact i assumed this was how the power ranking worked.
1. Question...Why not categorize them as all 4 possible combinations? For the Grandmaster, it can be voted on in the White, WR, WU, and WUR sections? Since the card changes in power level depending on the color combination, it seems worthwhile to do it this way.
2. Same response as #1. I understand this may not be as "pure" as forcing the cards into one group, but that restriction seems unhelpful for this exercise.
3. {C} Cards should be in their own section. They force different requirements on the construction of your cube and the mana in your deck. Reality Smasher should not be judged against Wurmcoil Engine. Similarly to points 1 and 2, I think cards with {C} activated abilities should be up for vote in the {C} section as well.
4. I don't think cards like Arcane Savant should be judged against normal blue cards. A 12th section is fine with me.
5. I would keep this to top 3-5 for each, as that is the interesting discussion point for cube managers, not what the general best tri-colored cards are.
6. I would vote for an "adjusted win percentage" metric here. The idea of an adjusted win percentage metric would be that you take the win % of the card (ie, the win % of players who cast the card), and weight that by the percentage of games the spell was actually cast. This forces you to consider casting cost in relation to power level, as well as flexibility in terms of likelihood the card makes your final deck. So a first pick Preordain might not be a super high win-percentage card, doubtfully much higher than 50%, but it's going to get cast in a huge percentage of games relative to a card like Future Sight or even Whirler Rougue, so it would be high up in the blue rankings.
The straw poll on points 4 and 6 has been posted here, please cast your vote!
In tbe interest of moving forward with this project, I'm considering points 1, 3, 5, or 6 settled as I mentioned above, but feel free to make your vote and opinions heard on 2 and 4.
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Edit: I noticed that the poll isn't about if conspiracies and other "weird" cards should get their own ranking section, but rather if they should be included in the power rankings or not. So, instead of voting if those cards should screw with the normal sections (bad) or get one of their own (good), we are voting if those cards should screw with the normal sections (bad) or be left out completely (also bad)?
1) I STRONGLY believe the voting should be on vintage legal cards only, no conspiracies/draft matters.
Note that all draft matter cards are vintage legal. You can play Arcane Savant in vintage... he is just not very impressive if you haven't drafted with him before the game.
Why vintage? Why not standard? Or Onslaught block? Or ooh, cards that can be drafted? Yeah, that one seems to make sense.
Because Vintage allows you to use the full Magic card pool. The only cards that are banned in Vintage are the cards that aren't really real Magic cards. So using a Vintage banned list isn't as arbitrary as you seem to imply here.
Exactly this. "Vintage legal" is just a shorthand for "pretty much everything except silver border cards, physical dexterity cards, ante cards and conspiracies". When we say "vintage legal" we aren't referencing a specific format, but say "everything that acts as a real Magic card".
Coming in a bit late, but I still want to provide my thoughts.
1. Categorize the Fate Reforged tri-brids like Soulfire Grandmaster as mono-colored cards based on their casting costs.
Most of these cards aren't playable without their activated abilities. They only function in the right multicoloured decks and should be evaluated as such.
2. Categorize cards with colored casting costs that produce off-colored mana (e.g. Noble Hierarch) by their casting cost.
These function fine in their casting colour decks. Sure they're strongest in decks but match their colour, but that's not required. Elves of Deep Shadow would not be competing for a golgari spot in my cube, but a mono green spot.
3. Categorize cards with costs requiring C mana with other colorless cards.
I don't think there's enough to warrant their own section.
4. Create a 12th category for Un-cards, Conspiracies, and draft-matters cards from the Conspiracy sets.
These cards all compete for their own spots in the cube. Some people don't like running powered cubes, but that doesn't mean we don't rank the powered card separately. These cards should be treated no differently.
5. Change the voting for Shards and Wedges from a top 3-5 for each to a Top 10 or 20 with all cards that are 3+ colors.
I like this idea. Not enough good cards in each shard / wedge to really warrant evaluating them separately.
6. Change the standard for voting from "cards you are most likely to draft Pack 1 Pick 1 out of a cube booster" to "best" or "most powerful" cube cards.
I like the best overall cards. I like using the power rankings as a check list to see which powerful cards I'm missing. I also use them to provide new cubers a list of cards to keep their eyes open for when drafting. P1P1 doesn't really matter.
I noticed that the poll isn't about if conspiracies and other "weird" cards should get their own ranking section, but rather if they should be included in the power rankings or not. So, instead of voting if those cards should screw with the normal sections (bad) or get one of their own (good), we are voting if those cards should screw with the normal sections (bad) or be left out completely (also bad)?
This is correct. Cards in every existing category are being ranked against other cards of similar mana requirements and considered for voting in the Overall category based on their ability to win games in a traditional cube environment. If it isn't being compared to the rest of the cards in Magic based on ability to win games we're not actually assessing its power level in the context of the rest of the game. If the will of the community is to exclude any type of card because the community does not consider it part of a traditional cube environment regardless of how effectively it can contribute to wins, it will not be ranked as part of the Power Rankings. The results of the straw poll will be the final word on this.
However, I do have something in mind for cards that we vote to exclude from this year's Power Rankings, and that will be a poll of the best non-traditional cards for cubes. This will include everything excluded from this year's Power Rankings as well as all other cards that have been traditionally excluded for not behaving like normal cards like holiday cards, Theros Hero cards, Archenemy schemes, etc. If WotC printed it and it wasn't voted on in the Power Rankings, we'll discuss and vote on it there. However, it won't be titled Power Rankings, and they won't be ranked based on power level, but rather popularity among cube managers based on fun, game play, design goals, or whatever criteria they deem appropriate, because power level is often not the primary consideration for most cube managers who use them. If there's enough interest in this, we can do it after the Power Rankings are finished.
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A) Resolving the question of which cards we consider part of a traditional cube environment and so we can rank all of them against each other based on power level, and
B) Creating a separate project in which the cards that don't fit can be discussed and ranked based on all criteria by which they may actually be included in cubes, including but not limited to power level.
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The results were skewed and wildly inaccurate, just on the very nature of how those cards are both harder to evaluate and have significantly less cumulative experience with in order to properly vote on. It's not that we can't vote on them, it's that we don't get the best voting results (whether you support them or not) when they're included.
I'm not forgetting that those cards were in last year's categories. I'm also not forgetting that I didn't care for it then either. These cards should all be in their own section since they only compete with each other for inclusion. I'd rather know what the 20 best cards are for my "Conspiracy Module" than know how Worldknit fairs against Crucible of Worlds.
I did vote, but both options being presented in the current vote seem bad to me. Is 2016 just the year of voting for two bad options?
Bottom line: If conspiracies would be voted for in the normal "articaft/colorless" section, it would completely warp that section, to the detriment of the normal colorless cards. I am strongly against doing that. Conspiracies need to go into their own section. Maybe with un-cards, maybe with draft-matter cards. But not with normal artifacts and colorles cards.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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Interestingly enough, using a Non-Vintage Legal section covers all of those kinds of cards in one place. It would allow players to vote on Arcane Savant in their blue section (since it is vintage legal), but it would keep the conspiracies from competing against artifacts.
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There is some value to that if we just acknowledge that most people here are really bad at evaluating cards that they haven't played with enough, so this is only a meaningful ranking among cards that are in almost everyone's cubes. Given last year's rankings, that's pretty true.
In any case, having people who will exclude cards because they don't play them and counting those as 0 votes doesn't make sense. I'd suggest a two-stage process where you gather cards to be ranked and then have people rank them completely.
You strongly think that Blast from the Past doesn't feel like playing actual magic cards?
I am fine with moving Conspiracies to their own sections but the Uncards don't play that different. Most uncards are only uncards until Maro thinks of a way to get them into black bordered magic.
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Few inputs
1) I STRONGLY believe the voting should be on vintage legal cards only, no conspiracies/draft matters.
2)I think noble hierarch should be classified as green. I don't buy the "optimal color combination" argument. By that logic, wild mongrol is more of a golgari card than noble hierarch is a bant card. I don't care that much tho...
3)Agree with changing the P1P1 criteria to the definitions floating above.
4)I don't think there's a good solution, but some cards that are great in powered cubes are much worse in non-powered cubes.
IE Dack Fayden is busted in powered cube, but medium/good in unpowered.. Ancient grudge is opressive in powered and unplayable in unpowered.
When people are voting on artifacts, it's kind of weird of a bunch of people are not voting on power while others are...
Leads to inaccurate voting
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1. FRF tri-brids will be categorized by all of tbe colors in their casting and activation costs. This means they will all be voted on as 3+ color cards.
3. OGW C cards will be categorized as if those costs were colorless. Reality Smasher is colorless, Eldrazi Displacer is white, Mirrorpool is land, etc.
5. All cards with 3 or more colors in their casting costs and/or activation costs will be voted on in a single category of 20 cards.
6. Cards are now being voted on and ranked Power Rankings based on how effectively they contribute to winning games when included in a traditional cube environment. The old "P1P1" metric is now scrapped.
Points 2 and 4 have proven more contentious, so I will be putting them to a separate straw-poll vote in another thread. Point 2 is a simple binary question, but discussion on Point 4 shows that we're really talking about 3 different types of cards: Conspiracies like Power Play and Double Stroke, draft-referencing cards like Arcane Savant and Deal Broker, and silver-bordered cards like City of Ass and Blast From the Past. We'll vote on whether or not to include each of these types of cards in a simple yes/no vote. If the community votes "no" on any of these categories, it will not be ranked in the Power Rankings at all. However, after the Power Rankings conclude I may put together a separate project to gauge their popularity if there is interest. There will be a 2-day time limit to give us enough time to draft the final Power Rankings opening posts before voting begins.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
No, it's not ideal color combination. It's intrinsically best. The difference is an intrinsic quality that pairs a card with a color identity, not a contextual quality.
Because Vintage allows you to use the full Magic card pool. The only cards that are banned in Vintage are the cards that aren't really real Magic cards. So using a Vintage banned list isn't as arbitrary as you seem to imply here.
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1. Categorize the Fate Reforged tri-brids like Soulfire Grandmaster as mono-colored cards based on their casting costs.
I prefer the tribrids in there base colour, thats where I slot them and it saves trouble finding other tri colour cards. I can completely see why someone more organised than me would call it 3 colours, but I usually think of them as 2 coloured cards when drafting and its base colour when I'm slotting it into cube.
2. Categorize cards with colored casting costs that produce off-colored mana (e.g. Noble Hierarch) by their casting cost.
Yes, this makes the most sense to me. I ran Ancvyns pilgrim a while ago and having to call it a sylesnia card seems silly to me, it is a green card that happens to make white mana.
3. Categorize cards with costs requiring C mana with other colorless cards.
Makes sense to me for creatures but i would just call the lands lands
4. Create a 12th category for Un-cards, Conspiracies, and draft-matters cards from the Conspiracy sets.
I would give the conspiracies their own section but everything else i would put in its colour.
5. Change the voting for Shards and Wedges from a top 3-5 for each to a Top 10 or 20 with all cards that are 3+ colours.
I think this seems like a lot for each list considering most cubes run few 3+ colour cards. Even with reclassifying tribrids etc. 10 seems like a lot.
6. Change the standard for voting from "cards you are most likely to draft Pack 1 Pick 1 out of a cube booster" to "best" or "most powerful" cube cards.
Makes sense to me, in fact i assumed this was how the power ranking worked.
2. Same response as #1. I understand this may not be as "pure" as forcing the cards into one group, but that restriction seems unhelpful for this exercise.
3. {C} Cards should be in their own section. They force different requirements on the construction of your cube and the mana in your deck. Reality Smasher should not be judged against Wurmcoil Engine. Similarly to points 1 and 2, I think cards with {C} activated abilities should be up for vote in the {C} section as well.
4. I don't think cards like Arcane Savant should be judged against normal blue cards. A 12th section is fine with me.
5. I would keep this to top 3-5 for each, as that is the interesting discussion point for cube managers, not what the general best tri-colored cards are.
6. I would vote for an "adjusted win percentage" metric here. The idea of an adjusted win percentage metric would be that you take the win % of the card (ie, the win % of players who cast the card), and weight that by the percentage of games the spell was actually cast. This forces you to consider casting cost in relation to power level, as well as flexibility in terms of likelihood the card makes your final deck. So a first pick Preordain might not be a super high win-percentage card, doubtfully much higher than 50%, but it's going to get cast in a huge percentage of games relative to a card like Future Sight or even Whirler Rougue, so it would be high up in the blue rankings.
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In tbe interest of moving forward with this project, I'm considering points 1, 3, 5, or 6 settled as I mentioned above, but feel free to make your vote and opinions heard on 2 and 4.
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Edit: I noticed that the poll isn't about if conspiracies and other "weird" cards should get their own ranking section, but rather if they should be included in the power rankings or not. So, instead of voting if those cards should screw with the normal sections (bad) or get one of their own (good), we are voting if those cards should screw with the normal sections (bad) or be left out completely (also bad)?
Note that all draft matter cards are vintage legal. You can play Arcane Savant in vintage... he is just not very impressive if you haven't drafted with him before the game.
Exactly this. "Vintage legal" is just a shorthand for "pretty much everything except silver border cards, physical dexterity cards, ante cards and conspiracies". When we say "vintage legal" we aren't referencing a specific format, but say "everything that acts as a real Magic card".
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Because if you don't get all the voters to cast the vote in the same place, it'll never get the appropriate number of votes for any given section.
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1. Categorize the Fate Reforged tri-brids like Soulfire Grandmaster as mono-colored cards based on their casting costs.
Most of these cards aren't playable without their activated abilities. They only function in the right multicoloured decks and should be evaluated as such.
2. Categorize cards with colored casting costs that produce off-colored mana (e.g. Noble Hierarch) by their casting cost.
These function fine in their casting colour decks. Sure they're strongest in decks but match their colour, but that's not required. Elves of Deep Shadow would not be competing for a golgari spot in my cube, but a mono green spot.
3. Categorize cards with costs requiring C mana with other colorless cards.
I don't think there's enough to warrant their own section.
4. Create a 12th category for Un-cards, Conspiracies, and draft-matters cards from the Conspiracy sets.
These cards all compete for their own spots in the cube. Some people don't like running powered cubes, but that doesn't mean we don't rank the powered card separately. These cards should be treated no differently.
5. Change the voting for Shards and Wedges from a top 3-5 for each to a Top 10 or 20 with all cards that are 3+ colors.
I like this idea. Not enough good cards in each shard / wedge to really warrant evaluating them separately.
6. Change the standard for voting from "cards you are most likely to draft Pack 1 Pick 1 out of a cube booster" to "best" or "most powerful" cube cards.
I like the best overall cards. I like using the power rankings as a check list to see which powerful cards I'm missing. I also use them to provide new cubers a list of cards to keep their eyes open for when drafting. P1P1 doesn't really matter.
This is correct. Cards in every existing category are being ranked against other cards of similar mana requirements and considered for voting in the Overall category based on their ability to win games in a traditional cube environment. If it isn't being compared to the rest of the cards in Magic based on ability to win games we're not actually assessing its power level in the context of the rest of the game. If the will of the community is to exclude any type of card because the community does not consider it part of a traditional cube environment regardless of how effectively it can contribute to wins, it will not be ranked as part of the Power Rankings. The results of the straw poll will be the final word on this.
However, I do have something in mind for cards that we vote to exclude from this year's Power Rankings, and that will be a poll of the best non-traditional cards for cubes. This will include everything excluded from this year's Power Rankings as well as all other cards that have been traditionally excluded for not behaving like normal cards like holiday cards, Theros Hero cards, Archenemy schemes, etc. If WotC printed it and it wasn't voted on in the Power Rankings, we'll discuss and vote on it there. However, it won't be titled Power Rankings, and they won't be ranked based on power level, but rather popularity among cube managers based on fun, game play, design goals, or whatever criteria they deem appropriate, because power level is often not the primary consideration for most cube managers who use them. If there's enough interest in this, we can do it after the Power Rankings are finished.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
A) Resolving the question of which cards we consider part of a traditional cube environment and so we can rank all of them against each other based on power level, and
B) Creating a separate project in which the cards that don't fit can be discussed and ranked based on all criteria by which they may actually be included in cubes, including but not limited to power level.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I did vote, but both options being presented in the current vote seem bad to me. Is 2016 just the year of voting for two bad options?
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