Disappointing. Even so, it's the 3rd or 4th best black 6 drop, so I guess big cubes will want this. Like wtwlf said, this needed to be a 6/5 or a 5cc to be cubeworthy in mid-sized cubes. I would love black to have another creature that survives Wildfire because right now, it's the weakest color to pair with for that deck (excepting a splash for tutors).
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rant
I think black is one of the best colors you can pair with Wildfire because it can easily kill creatures outside of Wildfire's range.
Agreed. I play Wildfire decks in every combination, and the black Wildfire deck is excellent.
Not to get too off topic, but I find white and blue bring much more to the table in terms of finishers, removal/counters, and other nice effects. Green brings ramp and fatties. Black seems redundant a lot of the time.
On topic, this creature is a miss for my cube. Close, but a miss.
Ah, forgot that Massacre Wurm is completely one-sided, my bad. Regardless, this and Grave Titan are probably he two best black creatures you can pair with Recurring Nightmare. I think the life gain will be key to how this card works out, black does so much damage to itself. Still, the vulnerability of 4 toughness and being an artifact might be too much for a six drop.
This is very indicative that you are inexperienced with massacre wurm in cube.
Massacre wurm is 90-95% as good as elesh norn and serves a near identical roll (with the added bonus of being hybrid hardcast/reanimate in reanimator decks). I say this with well over a hundred worth of cubes experiences with the card. Every single member of my play group would share this sentiment.
This
The Wurm has only gone up in my cube as I put in more value creatures and tokens. I have won plenty of games on cast of the Wurm
You guys are probably right on Massacre Wurm, I ran it a long time ago when my cube was huge and dragony and many of the token generators we have today weren't printed yet. That being said, do you guys think Wurm pairs better with Recurring Nightmare? Wurm's ability seems to have diminishing returns to me, more so than Gearhulk at least.
This card really needed to have 5 toughness. Being able to remove your opponent's largest threat and follow it up with Wildfire / Languish would have gone a long way, ugh.
Is it just me or is the green gearhulk the frontrunner of this cycle so far?
Me for the last three years: "I should cut Kokusho, the Evening Star... nah, there just isn't anything that's really better for my second black 6-drop slot."
Sure, the Gearhulk would have been more exciting (and still printable) as a 4/4 for 3BB. Just as Torrential Gearhulk would have been cooler as a 4/5 for 3UU. (I really wish the whole cycle would cost 3CC. Those different costs make the cycle wonky and offend my sense of aesthetic.) Still, the black 6-drop slot is almost as barren as the black 5-drop slot. I am completely fine with a big evasive body that can kill any creature without restriction and gain me some valuable life to offset all the lifeloss effects. Seriously, I think some of your just got your hopes up too high. Now, even a good card feels like a dissapointment to you.
people have stated that this competes with the 3rd or 4th best black 6 drops. it seems massacre wurm is the consensus #2, but what are the #3 and 4 this would compete with? or is this grouped with anything cmc 6 or more? just want to make sure i'm not missing any sweet cards in my cube.
this seems great to blink and recur, and i'd like more artifact creatures in my cube to interact with tinker/metalworker/academy. sometimes this will be less than optimal against tokens, but sometimes the removal will be needed and the lifegain may put you out of reach. i agree with everyone about the downsides, but i think it's close enough for me to want to try out.
Ah, forgot that Massacre Wurm is completely one-sided, my bad. Regardless, this and Grave Titan are probably he two best black creatures you can pair with Recurring Nightmare. I think the life gain will be key to how this card works out, black does so much damage to itself. Still, the vulnerability of 4 toughness and being an artifact might be too much for a six drop.
This is very indicative that you are inexperienced with massacre wurm in cube.
Massacre wurm is 90-95% as good as elesh norn and serves a near identical roll (with the added bonus of being hybrid hardcast/reanimate in reanimator decks). I say this with well over a hundred worth of cubes experiences with the card. Every single member of my play group would share this sentiment.
I agree with Wurm being better but 90%-95% of Elesh Norn is an exaggeration. Also, Wurm's power level dropped a little with the recent influx in 2/3s for 3 mana.
Ah, forgot that Massacre Wurm is completely one-sided, my bad. Regardless, this and Grave Titan are probably he two best black creatures you can pair with Recurring Nightmare. I think the life gain will be key to how this card works out, black does so much damage to itself. Still, the vulnerability of 4 toughness and being an artifact might be too much for a six drop.
This is very indicative that you are inexperienced with massacre wurm in cube.
Massacre wurm is 90-95% as good as elesh norn and serves a near identical roll (with the added bonus of being hybrid hardcast/reanimate in reanimator decks). I say this with well over a hundred worth of cubes experiences with the card. Every single member of my play group would share this sentiment.
I agree with Wurm being better but 90%-95% of Elesh Norn is an exaggeration. Also, Wurm's power level dropped a little with the recent influx in 2/3s for 3 mana.
I wouldn't be surprised if % of games won when put into play was 85-90% of the number for elesh norn.
I am also adding a few % because it is easier to hard cast than elesh norn for reanimator decks.
You may disagree, and I may be wrong, but I'm not exaggerating my estimations.
I do think the wurms power is more sensitive to the cube composition than Norns. Norn combined with creatures still dominate mid/large creatures.
Thankfully this a token heavy, swarm Agro, imperial recruiter friendly format
A few new 2/3s has been offset by the addition of token producing planeswalkers (Gideon, nissa,daretti)
Nothing feels better than dropping the Wrum on an opposing Elspeth whose 9 soldiers are about to fly over your head next turn for a billion damage.
And if I came off as overly critical on this guy that was not my intent. For those whose cubes are over 540 you probably want this guy. I think that Grave Titan and Griselbrand are the only expensive black creatures that are much better. The Wurm is my number 3 fatty. It wouldn't be a stretch to call this the ~4th best creature 5 mana and up in black. I like it better than priest of the blood rite as well if people are still playing that or as a general placeholder until we get a 5 drop of unholy perfection.
You guys are probably right on Massacre Wurm, I ran it a long time ago when my cube was huge and dragony and many of the token generators we have today weren't printed yet. That being said, do you guys think Wurm pairs better with Recurring Nightmare? Wurm's ability seems to have diminishing returns to me, more so than Gearhulk at least.
This card really needed to have 5 toughness. Being able to remove your opponent's largest threat and follow it up with Wildfire / Languish would have gone a long way, ugh.
Is it just me or is the green gearhulk the frontrunner of this cycle so far?
I think you hit the nail on the head why Massacre wurm got forgotten about by some.. I speculate in it's time there was a lot less premium token producers (WG planeswalkers/mentor/pyromancer/P&K nalaar/lingering souls/sorin).
I'm derailing the thread now, so won't talk Massacre wurm anymore.
Also a million % agree that green gearhulk is the front runner, gave me false hope on the rest of the cycle!
Got to see the green gearhulk go off with Kiki-Jiki yesterday, pretty cool
I think this one is better suited for unpowered cubes. There's a ton of stuff you can do for 6 mana in a powered environment, other than just kill something and put decent body on the field. At least, you could Tinker for it, but isn't it really worth it?
I don't really agree with that assessment. I've only ever run an unpowered cube, but all the offending cards cost 0 to 3 mana. I run upheaval and time spiral and gristlbrand and tinker ect. The difference between powered and unpowered is not the power level of top end but how fast you can get there. noxious gearhulk competes on its own merits, not necessarily the powered vs. unpowered distinction.
I'm more referring to the fact that both metagames (unpowered and powered) are two completely different environment, at least in general. Aggro and combo tend to be absent from most unpowered lists and that opens the door for control and midrange strategies to be omnipresent. In those kind of meta, I can imagine the black hulk been pretty solid, at least against none control decks.
Back to this card. It's 5 am in Montana and I just changed my one week old son's diaper, and as I was frantically trying to cover him so he wouldn't piss all over me, I was reminded of this card.
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Aggro is, in general, stronger in an unpowered environment because (1) you're less likely to see a wrath powered out a turn early and (2) you can race the combo decks more reliably. Combo decks tend to still exist in unpowered, they're just slower and they may not include storm combo.
I'd say the difference between a traditional powered list and a traditional unpowered list is like twenty cards. While the presence or abscence of those cards can have a strong impact on individual games, I don't think that there is a big influence on the overall cube.
I can assure you that aggro is alive and well in unpowered lists. And while combo lacks the super fast mana of Moxen and friends, you can still support comboish archetypes like reanimator or fatty cheating.
What I'm trying to say is that most cubes in general are unpolished in such a way where aggro and combo can't thrive, not that it can't exist in a polished non-powered list.
I think the artifact synergies are notable. You can find it with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. You can Academy Ruins it.
It's got various deck applications, especially considering it's still really good when you cast it, which definitely can't be said for every Tinker target. Are you reanimator? You'll probably run it. Are you artifacts? You'll probably run it. Birthing Pod? B/G Rock? Recurring Nightmare? Slam dunk it. Its versatility is its biggest strength.
All that being said, Grave Titan is definitely more powerful, but it's worth considering that the Gearhulk has tons of applications that the Titan doesn't. I think it's good enough to test, I'm completely certain that it's much better than it appears, especially in the world of Emrakuls and Elesh Norns.
That's nothing to do with the presence or absence of power, rather just a comment on how most cubes are initially built. I think one could make some sort of case for combo being more viable in powered (Storm especially), but not aggro.
One of the more outrageous claims I've seen in a while (the aggro part, in particular).
No need to be rude man. Absolutely unnecessary and borderline unfriendly.
A lot of cube managers here on MTG Salvation do run an un-list that is copy/paste from a powered one minus 20 cards, and that's fine. But playgroups around me, where I hang and play Magic, doesn't have the exact same mentality. For them, and for a lot of casual cubers I'm sure, an unpowered list is completely different.
In those lists, red and white are the only colors that can suit for aggro strategies. No joke, nonburn aggro isn't even viable for most of them. Some also just doesn't support aggro at all. And I do understand that because their lists are far more focus on big CA cards and control stuff than traditionnal powered one. Why would you want to include a ton of 2 power 1-drops in those kind of lists, while you could, for example, include more removals in their black section and more ramp stuff in their green? Even if you're not doing that, how can your GB Reaver Drone/Jungle Lion deck can win before your midrange opponent goes off by green-ramping something undealable or before your control opponent wrath you off? While you're fairly curving into your drops... The point is that nonred aggro decks need specific support in order to succeed and that support is not traditionnally include in most un-lists. That's all.
For example, Plow Under, Winter Orb or Tangle Wire is not the type of card midrange slugfest cubes are looking for. Out here, they usually came with the power and a aggro package.
I understand it's also a matter of cube crafting mentality, but the point is that without fast mana aggro and combo are much more weak and tend be less dominant. By using it, they can drive crazy in the early game and get the little edge they need against midrange and control. In fact, I think the two latest don't benefit as much as them from power at all. Not because they can spit their 2-drop on turn 1, but because they can reach their top end spell faster by unnaturraly ramp to it and punish and their opponent.
Anyway, my initial point was that black hulk seems great for those kind of midrange slugfest lists because he's a CA machine that kills anything. Sorry for being outrageous by claiming that...
I understand it's also a matter of cube crafting mentality, but the point is that without fast mana aggro and combo are much more weak and tend be less dominant. By using it, they can drive crazy in the early game and get the little edge they need against midrange and control. In fact, I think the two latest don't benefit as much as them from power at all.
You're conflating two frankly unrelated things. Aggro will not perform well in a cube that does not support aggro, but that has nothing to do with the presence or lack of power. Midrange and control decks are actually more capable than aggro of taking advantage of moxen, especially off-color moxen. If you're saying that any list that runs aggro support but not power is basically copy-pasted from a list that runs power, or that unpowered cubes are just a pile of splashy goodstuff, then yes that's an outrageous claim.
Not to get too off topic, but I find white and blue bring much more to the table in terms of finishers, removal/counters, and other nice effects. Green brings ramp and fatties. Black seems redundant a lot of the time.
On topic, this creature is a miss for my cube. Close, but a miss.
Cheers,
rant
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This
The Wurm has only gone up in my cube as I put in more value creatures and tokens. I have won plenty of games on cast of the Wurm
This card really needed to have 5 toughness. Being able to remove your opponent's largest threat and follow it up with Wildfire / Languish would have gone a long way, ugh.
Is it just me or is the green gearhulk the frontrunner of this cycle so far?
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Unless I am missing something, Noxious Gearhulk stands out to me as the second best black 2-drop. What is better besides Grave Titan? Massacre Wurm? Dislike the triple black cost. Tasigur, the Golden Fang? Don't count him as a 6-drop.
Sure, the Gearhulk would have been more exciting (and still printable) as a 4/4 for 3BB. Just as Torrential Gearhulk would have been cooler as a 4/5 for 3UU. (I really wish the whole cycle would cost 3CC. Those different costs make the cycle wonky and offend my sense of aesthetic.) Still, the black 6-drop slot is almost as barren as the black 5-drop slot. I am completely fine with a big evasive body that can kill any creature without restriction and gain me some valuable life to offset all the lifeloss effects. Seriously, I think some of your just got your hopes up too high. Now, even a good card feels like a dissapointment to you.
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this seems great to blink and recur, and i'd like more artifact creatures in my cube to interact with tinker/metalworker/academy. sometimes this will be less than optimal against tokens, but sometimes the removal will be needed and the lifegain may put you out of reach. i agree with everyone about the downsides, but i think it's close enough for me to want to try out.
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I agree with Wurm being better but 90%-95% of Elesh Norn is an exaggeration. Also, Wurm's power level dropped a little with the recent influx in 2/3s for 3 mana.
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I wouldn't be surprised if % of games won when put into play was 85-90% of the number for elesh norn.
I am also adding a few % because it is easier to hard cast than elesh norn for reanimator decks.
You may disagree, and I may be wrong, but I'm not exaggerating my estimations.
I do think the wurms power is more sensitive to the cube composition than Norns. Norn combined with creatures still dominate mid/large creatures.
Thankfully this a token heavy, swarm Agro, imperial recruiter friendly format
A few new 2/3s has been offset by the addition of token producing planeswalkers (Gideon, nissa,daretti)
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And if I came off as overly critical on this guy that was not my intent. For those whose cubes are over 540 you probably want this guy. I think that Grave Titan and Griselbrand are the only expensive black creatures that are much better. The Wurm is my number 3 fatty. It wouldn't be a stretch to call this the ~4th best creature 5 mana and up in black. I like it better than priest of the blood rite as well if people are still playing that or as a general placeholder until we get a 5 drop of unholy perfection.
I think you hit the nail on the head why Massacre wurm got forgotten about by some.. I speculate in it's time there was a lot less premium token producers (WG planeswalkers/mentor/pyromancer/P&K nalaar/lingering souls/sorin).
I'm derailing the thread now, so won't talk Massacre wurm anymore.
Also a million % agree that green gearhulk is the front runner, gave me false hope on the rest of the cycle!
Got to see the green gearhulk go off with Kiki-Jiki yesterday, pretty cool
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Back to this card. It's 5 am in Montana and I just changed my one week old son's diaper, and as I was frantically trying to cover him so he wouldn't piss all over me, I was reminded of this card.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
One of the more outrageous claims I've seen in a while (the aggro part, in particular).
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I can assure you that aggro is alive and well in unpowered lists. And while combo lacks the super fast mana of Moxen and friends, you can still support comboish archetypes like reanimator or fatty cheating.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
It's got various deck applications, especially considering it's still really good when you cast it, which definitely can't be said for every Tinker target. Are you reanimator? You'll probably run it. Are you artifacts? You'll probably run it. Birthing Pod? B/G Rock? Recurring Nightmare? Slam dunk it. Its versatility is its biggest strength.
All that being said, Grave Titan is definitely more powerful, but it's worth considering that the Gearhulk has tons of applications that the Titan doesn't. I think it's good enough to test, I'm completely certain that it's much better than it appears, especially in the world of Emrakuls and Elesh Norns.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
No need to be rude man. Absolutely unnecessary and borderline unfriendly.
A lot of cube managers here on MTG Salvation do run an un-list that is copy/paste from a powered one minus 20 cards, and that's fine. But playgroups around me, where I hang and play Magic, doesn't have the exact same mentality. For them, and for a lot of casual cubers I'm sure, an unpowered list is completely different.
In those lists, red and white are the only colors that can suit for aggro strategies. No joke, nonburn aggro isn't even viable for most of them. Some also just doesn't support aggro at all. And I do understand that because their lists are far more focus on big CA cards and control stuff than traditionnal powered one. Why would you want to include a ton of 2 power 1-drops in those kind of lists, while you could, for example, include more removals in their black section and more ramp stuff in their green? Even if you're not doing that, how can your GB Reaver Drone/Jungle Lion deck can win before your midrange opponent goes off by green-ramping something undealable or before your control opponent wrath you off? While you're fairly curving into your drops... The point is that nonred aggro decks need specific support in order to succeed and that support is not traditionnally include in most un-lists. That's all.
For example, Plow Under, Winter Orb or Tangle Wire is not the type of card midrange slugfest cubes are looking for. Out here, they usually came with the power and a aggro package.
I understand it's also a matter of cube crafting mentality, but the point is that without fast mana aggro and combo are much more weak and tend be less dominant. By using it, they can drive crazy in the early game and get the little edge they need against midrange and control. In fact, I think the two latest don't benefit as much as them from power at all. Not because they can spit their 2-drop on turn 1, but because they can reach their top end spell faster by unnaturraly ramp to it and punish and their opponent.
Anyway, my initial point was that black hulk seems great for those kind of midrange slugfest lists because he's a CA machine that kills anything. Sorry for being outrageous by claiming that...
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